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Post by jman on Oct 24, 2012 14:21:38 GMT -5
I really enjoyed the book! I'll have to let it sink in a bit before I make any observations.
One thing: Did the names of the characters strike anyone else as "fake" sounding? Qwerty, Prosper Lost, Ellington Feint, etc. This certainly wasn't the case in ASOUE. Are they actually fake names, or is Handler just not as good at making up believable names for characters as he used to be?
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Post by Dante on Oct 24, 2012 15:10:23 GMT -5
Quite a lot of the names are actually references to literature, particularly detective fiction - but as for the "fake" names, I'd say you have the wrong end of the stick. Quite a lot of books for children have "fake" names like that, and I'd say a better word for it would be "interesting" names. Handler's not just taking his names from literature and history now but from vocabulary, and it's another way of introducing new words to his audience, by embodying them in his characters. I prefer the names in ATWQ, frankly. I'll even accept Qwerty (partly as I think it could be a pseudonym anyway) - certainly I'll accept it over some of ASoUE's blander names, names which frequently don't come paired with a forename or surname anyway. I feel like we're getting to know the characters in ATWQ better, and that fullness is reflected in their fuller names.
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Post by Hermes on Oct 24, 2012 16:18:55 GMT -5
I think many of the names in ASOUE are equally odd - Remora, for instance, or Denouement, not to mention all the islanders. I agree, though, that Qwerty may well be a false name. (So might Ellington Feint, possibly, as she's undercover; Lost, though, is proprietor of The Lost Arms , presumably a long-standing business, so I think it's his real name.)
More literary references: The Long Secret is apparently a sequel to Harriet the Spy by Louise Fitzhugh. Harriet is a girl who carries a notebook round with her and records everything that happens, so you can see why this was such an inspiration to Lemony.
There's also a Laura Ingalls Wilder reference, I think (a member of VFD, of course), and The Wind in the Willows is explicitly mentioned (which explains the toad on the Lemony Snicket Library site).
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Post by Christmas Chief on Oct 24, 2012 16:59:46 GMT -5
Speaking of names, I've drawn up a list of characters and places in WCTBATH I think might be helpful in looking for allusions and such. So far as I can tell, they're all in order of appearance; note characters marked with an asterisk are mentioned, but never directly seen by the narrator in the narrative. CharactersWalleye* Lemony Snicket False parents S. Theadora Markson Waitress(?) People checking on ink supply A friend of Lemony’s who had just graduated, and knew about all sorts of underwater life (27)* The butler/Hangfire Dame Sally Murphy/Mrs. Sallis Mr. Mallahan Moxie Mallahan Ms. Mallahan* The Bombinating Beast Lady Mallahan* Prosper Lost Dashiell Qwerty Stew Mitchum Kit Snicket* A teacher (from Snicket’s training)* Officers Harvey and Mimi Mitchum Pecuchet Bellerophon/Pip Bouvard Bellerophon/Squeak Coast Guard Octopus Council Ellington Feint Mr. Feint* Snicket’s real parents* Stain’d Players* Leslie Crosbie* Dr. Flammarion* Hector Monty* Haruki* LocationsOutside Stain'dBellamy Station Bellamy Books Museum of Bad Breakfast Hemlock Tea & Stationery Stop The Fourier Branch Killdeer Fields V.F.D. Headquarters/VFDhq Within Stain’d-by-the-SeaGroup of faded brick buildings The Stain’d Lighthouse The Clusterous Forest The Sallis mansion The Lost Arms Hungry’s Tall building with gray carved pillars on either side of the doors Police Station & Library (formerly City Hall) Bellerophon Taxi Offshore Island Wade Academy Handkerchief Heights Black Cat Coffee Shop Caravan and Parfait Post Office Stain’d Playhouse Thirteen Hundred Blotted Boulevard Edit: And while I'm posting lists, these are my findings so far as ASOUE references go (different than literary allusions), followed by page numbers when applicable. Allusions to ASOUE- Fountain of Victorious Finance (18)
- Bat shaped measuring tape (19)
- A friend of Lemony’s who had just graduated, and knew about all sorts of underwater life (27)?
- Root beer floats (85, 112, 134)
- References to bells/ringing
- Room with only a few books
- “I was tempted to take off my wet socks, and not only because they were uncomfortable.” (183)
- “I thought of some of the secret passageways underneath certain buildings back in the city …” (214)
- “A library is usually a safe place.” (235)
- V.F.D./secret organization
- Hector/hot air balloons
- Kit Snicket
- Monty (252)
- Haruki (252)
- “It rang like a bell in my head – wrong, wrong, wrong.” (258)
It strikes me also that 1300 Blotted Boulevard could be a parallel to 667 Dark Avenue, but if so it's far less explicit than the others.
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Q.R.V.
Formidable Foreman
Better paranoid than dead.
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Post by Q.R.V. on Oct 25, 2012 0:27:42 GMT -5
For reference: the books alluded to (I've read most of them, so that helped). Page number allusion appears on (Little Brown edition) - book title - author.
38 - Johnny Tremain - Esther Forbes 94 - The Interlopers - Saki 102 - Danny, the Champion of the World - Roald Dahl 102 - Charlie and the Chocolate Factory - Roald Dahl 117 - Little House in the Big Woods - Laura Ingalls Wilder 158 - Charlotte's Web - E. B. White 159 - The Long Secret - Louise Fitzhugh 159 - Harriet the Spy - Louise Fitzhugh 160 - Nobody's Family is Going to Change - Louise Fitzhugh 212 - The Wind in the Willows - Kenneth Grahame 237 - Lord of the Rings - J.R.R. Tolkein
I think, based on his conversations with Pip and Squeak, that Snicket used the three Fitzhugh books to trick Hangfire.
Also, regarding the clue supposedly hidden in the endpapers - on the back inside cover of the Little Brown edition, one of the octopuses is replaced by a Beast. Is this all, or does anyone see a pattern/message in the octopus expressions?
And on Dame Sally Murphy. (I like how Sally Murphy = Murphy Sallis). Snicket kept describing her protests and actions and screams of "Get out!" during the rescue in terms of a performance; maybe she is still acting. I feel like Dame Sally has a larger backstory than just "convenient local actress for Hangfire's plot", and will reappear.
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Post by Dante on Oct 25, 2012 3:53:42 GMT -5
For reference: the books alluded to (I've read most of them, so that helped). Page number allusion appears on (Little Brown edition) - book title - author. That's excellent, QRV. Some of this material will probably be immortalised as Dastardly Documents once I've gotten my act together, and we've checked to see if there are an missing references that anyone's missed. Likewise, me and Antenora have been working on some material on the origins of character names, and I'll get that posted sometime - spoilers, they're pretty much all from noir, who would have thought it. Argh! I certainly never spotted that before. That's a great secret. I should note that I don't think that anything is meant here by "secret" beyond "little details to spot," such as the changing expressions on the octopi and this one Beast. The patterns on the octopi are completely regular and run in sixes. She says that she has her family to think about. I imagine that, much like Ellington, Hangfire has kidnapped someone close to her and is threatening them to ensure her compliance. This is why she refuses to co-operate with Lemony and just sits there waiting for Hangfire to return even though he just tried to kill her. She can't just run away when she has her family to think about. Similarly, I imagine she's even more frightened when Lemony mentions his organisation as Hangfire probably specifically warned her against trying to seek help from the secret organisation he was trying to exploit. I wouldn't be surprised to see her return later, once again under Hangfire's thumb, and see some of this explained. Edit: CharactersS. Theadora Markson The butler/Hangfire Dame Sally Murphy/Mrs. Sallis Moxie Mallahan Prosper Lost Dashiell Qwerty Stew Mitchum Pecuchet Bellerophon/Pip Bouvard Bellerophon/Squeak Ellington Feint Leslie Crosbie* Dr. Flammarion* Haruki* This is never going to go in DDocuments as there's too much ambiguity, too much let, on some of these names; they could refer to a number of sources and we'll never pin them down. But it should be a good guide. Sources compiled by me and Antenora.
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Post by Hermes on Oct 25, 2012 11:21:55 GMT -5
Edit: And while I'm posting lists, these are my findings so far as ASOUE references go (different than literary allusions), followed by page numbers when applicable. Allusions to ASOUE- Fountain of Victorious Finance (18)
- Bat shaped measuring tape (19)
- A friend of Lemony’s who had just graduated, and knew about all sorts of underwater life (27)?
- Root beer floats (85, 112, 134)
- References to bells/ringing
- Room with only a few books
- “I was tempted to take off my wet socks, and not only because they were uncomfortable.” (183)
- “I thought of some of the secret passageways underneath certain buildings back in the city …” (214)
- “A library is usually a safe place.” (235)
- V.F.D./secret organization
- Hector/hot air balloons
- Kit Snicket
- Monty (252)
- Haruki (252)
- “It rang like a bell in my head – wrong, wrong, wrong.” (258)
It strikes me also that 1300 Blotted Boulevard could be a parallel to 667 Dark Avenue, but if so it's far less explicit than the others. Thanks for these, Sherry Ann - I spotted most of them, but it's still good to have them all in one place. But what does Haruki relate to in ASOUE? By the way, some have said there's no explicit mention of VFD, so it may be worth pointing out that there is in the 'dedication' - 'cc: VFDhq'.
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Post by B. on Oct 25, 2012 11:33:27 GMT -5
But what does Haruki relate to in ASOUE? Haruki Murakami is the name of a patient who appears in The Hostile Hospital and his name is indeed the same literacy allusion mentioned above. It's interesting to think how Haruki's mention in ATWQ, gives the single, flat character in THH so much more depth.
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Antenora
Detriment Deleter
Fiendish Philologist
Put down that harpoon gun, in the name of these wonderful birds!
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Post by Antenora on Oct 25, 2012 11:43:52 GMT -5
- Murphy is too common to pin down, as is Sally, but there is a James Sallis who seems relevant.
I still think Murphy's Law could be the relevant allusion, especially because it's practically a law of thermodynamics in the Snicket universe. But that wouldn't quite fit with the noir allusions-- then again, not all of these allusions do. Curiously enough, I've posted some of that person's artwork on my blog.
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johanna
Bewildered Beginner
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Post by johanna on Oct 25, 2012 13:31:37 GMT -5
I really liked this book, and I especially loved all the references for us die-hard fans - the root beer floats, Mexican food, Fountain of Victorious Finance, etc. However I did think that the novel lacked that electric, edge-of-your-seat feeling of the ASOUE books. I hope this will change as the series goes on, but I personally wasn't as invested in this story as I was in ASOUE. Also, who thinks that the statue is just another red herring? It felt like the sugar bowl all over to me.
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Post by Dante on Oct 25, 2012 14:13:22 GMT -5
I think people are maybe a bit nostalgic about ASoUE. I felt WCTBATH was more unputdownable than any ASoUE book and an improvement in pretty much every way. I don't think this'll be something any of us can convince each other of, though; it's probably entirely subjective. What I am looking forward to, though, is the thoughts of people who've never read any Snicket before. They must be out there!
As for the statue, the possibility has occurred to me that come the last book the whole series will turn out to have been about Ellington Feint. But unlike the sugar bowl, the Beast has characteristics that make it very clear that it has a distinct function and Handler basically promised in an interview the other day that the mystery of it will be solved. You have to recognise that there are very different production conditions to ATWQ than there were to ASoUE. One was planned for six years. The other was barely planned at all.
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crono288
Catastrophic Captain
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Post by crono288 on Oct 25, 2012 14:32:03 GMT -5
I felt WCTBATH was more unputdownable than any ASoUE book and an improvement in pretty much every way. This reminds me of one thought I forgot to mention - it seems like this would very easily make a great film.
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Post by Dante on Oct 25, 2012 14:36:38 GMT -5
That's what I also thought after I'd read the book. People had wondered before whether we'd get an ATWQ film, and frankly, if they can put in the investment to make it into a proper series: Yes please. I was never that enthusiastic about a film version of ASoUE but I'd really like to see what they'd do with ATWQ.
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Post by Christmas Chief on Oct 25, 2012 14:55:50 GMT -5
I still think Murphy's Law could be the relevant allusion, especially because it's practically a law of thermodynamics in the Snicket universe. But that wouldn't quite fit with the noir allusions-- then again, not all of these allusions do. "Anything that can go wrong will go wrong" does suit Snicket's work as a whole, and I can see how it might apply to the specific character. Murphy is the recipient of a plethora of bad luck, possibly more than any other character within the course of the work. Funnily enough, I was trying to remember where I'd heard the name before I read your post.
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Post by jman on Oct 25, 2012 16:14:14 GMT -5
I remember reading an interview where Daniel Handler said that Haruki Murakami's "Wind-Up Bird Chronicles" was one of his favourite books. Perhaps that is why references to the author have been included in THH and WCTBATH.
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