facelesscreature
Reptile Researcher
“I suppose I'll have to add the force of gravity to my list of enemies.”
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Post by facelesscreature on May 23, 2014 12:42:45 GMT -5
Created this thread to focus on the overall setting the entire LS universe.
Setting of TBL
It is unclear what age Lemony is in these letters. On the front card of the letters, it suggests that Lemony is 11 years old. However, all the other letters suggests that he is at least 17 or almost 18 or 19 because the letters suggest he is engaged to be married around the time he was in some sort of VFD training school. Every letter from Beatrice is from Kit Snicket's daughter that was adopted by the Baudelaire children. These letters suggest that Sir survived the fire from TPP and is running away from the VFD organization. Setting is somewhere in the late 1920's.
Setting of UA
Lemony describes that he was taken by VFD at a very early age. Around 3 years old? Once taken, he gives hints about Gustav Sebald. It is unclear if Sebald is a child like everyone else at the time, or if he is an adult that only looks like a child. My theory is that Gustav is actually an adult, despite the evidence that he is a child. In the UA, Gustav's sister specifically mentions that he has made many films, which have made it to the movie theater. This would mean that he only looks like a child. When Lemony mentions the play featuring "the little Sebald lad," he means that a child was cast to play him in the play, but was replaced by one of Olaf's associates who looks to be in his mid 20's. When Lemony was a boy and even as a teenager, cars had already been invented. This makes the UA set somewhere in the 1920's.
Setting of ATWQ
These books are set sometime in the 1920's as well. Lemony is (I believe) 13 years old. I don't ever remember any mention of Beatrice though. This would mean that he didn't meet her until a few years later. Every other important character is mentioned and they are around Lemony's age. The schism has already happened, but as mentioned in UA and ASOUE, it happened a long time ago.
Setting of the Schism
The schism happened many years ago. Lemony would either not have been born or have been to young to ever have been taken by VFD. However, he has the VFD tattoo. I'm making a huge theory that Lemony was the last person to get the tattoo because the schism happened shortly after he was taken. Evidence points to Olaf and Esme starting the schism, BUT I believe that the schism was cause by Olaf's father! I believe that the Baudelaires, the Snickets, Quagmires, and even Olaf's family was there. I believe that Kit, Lemony, "R", and Olaf witnessed their parents arguing with each other, which started the schism. Just pure speculation, but I believe that Hangfire is really Count Olaf's father! Maybe Olaf's father has the initial "O" as well. This would make sense because the UA mentions an old Count and his only son. This could mean Olaf's father started the schism with his wife, who may possibly also have the initial "E."!!!
Setting of ASOUE
These books are set sometime in the 1940's. This is because Lemony mentions World War I at least twice in the series. He never seems to mention World War II though. With my schism theory, it would make sense that Lemony and Beatrice would kill Olaf's parents with poison darts years later after they were grown. This would have started a feud between the Snickets, the Baudelaires, and Olaf's friends and family.
Setting after The End
It is unclear if the Baudelaire orphans survived after leaving the island; however, TBL suggests that Violet, Klaus, and Sunny are still alive, just lost or hiding. TBL also suggests that Beatrice, who is 10 years old, is looking for the Baudelaires by contacting members of VFD who survived the fire in TPP. I believe that somehow Lemony received the ring that was to be Beatrice's engagement ring again. After all of the owners who had the ring, it circled back to Lemony, making his life depressing again, which made him research his own history and write the ATWQ series. So, after The End, the setting is somewhere in the 1950's with many other stories woven in to carry the mysterious sugar bowl across multiple owners until it circles back to Lemony. The real question is not who is Lemony Snicket. It's who is Beatrice? (Because so little is known about her)
Another thing to think about.
It seems that other LS books also connect with those mentioned above. In the LS book, The Lump Of Coal, there's an illustration from Mr. Helquist that looks like Violet when she is grown. It is drawn so you can't see her face, but her outfit and hair are the same. Also she is missing her hair ribbon that she lost shown in TBL.
Hope you enjoyed my theory. Please give me any more details that fit in with these. I'm a huge fan of these books.
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Post by A comet crashing into Earth on May 24, 2014 11:07:43 GMT -5
I like your observations here. Dating Snicket's stories is a huge, difficult and possibly self-contradictory task. It's unlikely that ASOUE is set in the -40's, partly because we never hear of World War II (which would be very unlikely not to have come up in conversation at some point during the series, even if they take place in the States), and partly because TAA includes references to an advanced computer at a boarding school, while the Last Chance General Store in THH Sells fiber-optic cable. Another aspect of the setting that I've found myself taking an interest in is the geography of the books. It's not stated in ASOUE where the story takes place, but Snicket refers to 'The Duchess of Winnipeg' and 'The King of Arizona' as characters who have, at some point, interacted with the main cast, so most likely it is set in the United States. Which instinctively kind of bothers me, because I find Snicket's wit very British. I think I read somewhere that the movie considers 'the city' to mean Boston, which is a fitting compromise in my mind - if it can't be in England, New England seems likely. I'm very interested in that illustration you mention from The Lump of Coal. Apart from ATWQ, I haven't read anything non-ASOUE under the Snicket pseudonym, but I went on a quick internet search for the book. I didn't find anywhere that showed the picture you were talking about, but another picture shows the lump of coal walking past a couple of canvases, one of them with a girl's face painted on it that I think looks a bit like Violet. If there's also an adult in the book wearing her outfit, either Helquist or Snicket is probably making an intentional reference to the Series.
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facelesscreature
Reptile Researcher
“I suppose I'll have to add the force of gravity to my list of enemies.”
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Post by facelesscreature on May 24, 2014 13:02:53 GMT -5
You make a good point about the fiber optic cable. The internet says that the first actual fiber optic cable was invented in 1952. Maybe THH is set in that exact year. In TAA, it never explicitly says how advanced the computer is, so the setting of TAA could be approximately a few months before 1952. Another reason that could support this is that most of the ASOUE series takes places during the Summer. This would explain why the Baudelaires never mention going to school. Even in TAA, no one mentions when the Baudelaires were at school before. If this is true, the setting of the ASOUE would take place in 1951 and continue to The End in 1953. By this time, World War II would be over. This would make TBL take place sometime in 1963, since Beatrice Baudelaire II (Kit's daughter) is around 10 years old. With this theory, it could mean that ATWQ series takes place in the 1930's and the Schism taking place years before. Maybe the Schism had something to do with World War I? What do you think? Also (attached) here is the illustration from The Lump of Coal Look at the woman next to Santa. It looks like Violet as an adult. Attachments:
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Post by A comet crashing into Earth on May 24, 2014 14:38:59 GMT -5
The fifties sounds more likely, though I'm still personally inclined to believe that ASOUE is written in a deliberately anachronistic manner. It seems unlikely that a small store in the middle of nowhere would carry something as hi-tech and obscure as fiber-optic cable so soon after its invention, but there are more unlikely things in Snicket's works already (an infant climbing an elevator shaft with her teeth, anyone?), so I can go with that anyway. For the record, though, Count Olaf quotes a 1971 poem in The End, and undoubtedly the series at some point refers to many other works that are even more recent. I liked having ATWQ set in the twenties, though. After all, that was the heyday of the Noir genre it's paying homage to. I think that until anything else is decisively proven, I'll keep the Snicketverse/Averse seperate from the real world in my personal interpretation. That way, Snicket can be twelve in the twenties (or their snicketverse equivalent), yet still young enough to chronicle the Baudelaires' story at some point after This be the Verse was written. EDIT: Wow, thanks for taking the effort to find that. I see the likeness, but I'm not sure it's intentional. I think Violet's trademark coat is a bit longer, and I think Helquist would also draw her a bit slimmer, even as an adult.
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facelesscreature
Reptile Researcher
“I suppose I'll have to add the force of gravity to my list of enemies.”
Posts: 48
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Post by facelesscreature on May 24, 2014 15:04:42 GMT -5
Because I'm obesessed with this series, I'm going to try another theory. The poem "This Be the Verse" by Philip Larkin that Olaf recites in The End could mean that Philip Larkin was actually a VFD member. It would make sense because he was alive during this time period. Philip Larkin didn't write the poem until 1971, but he could have told his associates about it years before. After all, LS does say that VFD was a very big and secret organization with many volunteers and villains.
With all these ideas, I can't wait until book 3 of ATWQ.
Also, you may be right about the illustration, but it just seems odd that Mr. Helquist drew it so similar to Violet. In my opinion though, Lemony Snicket leaves hidden codes and messages in all of his books.
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Post by A comet crashing into Earth on May 24, 2014 15:16:09 GMT -5
That's true - I think Olaf even says "You're not the only one who can quote our associates" before reciting it. And we already know that there are story-related details hidden in the illustrations of ASOUE.
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Post by Dante on May 25, 2014 5:02:04 GMT -5
It's worth noting that we have a whole board full of many, many discussions about the time and place of the series, but here's Mr. Handler's latest word on the subject, from his recent Ask Me Anything on Reddit:
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facelesscreature
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“I suppose I'll have to add the force of gravity to my list of enemies.”
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Post by facelesscreature on May 25, 2014 9:35:34 GMT -5
Mr. Handler does not specify which city though. It could mean that the series takes place throughout different countries. However, the story from TBB through TEE seems to be set in the United States. I believe that TVV through TGG takes place in a different country (possibly somewhere in England?). The end of TGG and through TPP must also be within the same country (maybe the United States again?). The setting of The End may be a small island in the ocean between these two countries.
Also, TRR references Tedia (I believe). This could be referring to Tedia's High Purity Solvents which (I believe) are located in different parts of the United States.
The only thing that contradicts this theory is that Tedia's High Purity Solvents was founded in 1975. This would contradict my theory that the ASOUE series takes place in the 1950's. (Maybe he is referring to a different Tedia.)?
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facelesscreature
Reptile Researcher
“I suppose I'll have to add the force of gravity to my list of enemies.”
Posts: 48
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Post by facelesscreature on May 28, 2014 15:36:15 GMT -5
Sorry I haven't post in a few days. I've been skimming through my LS books again. I have some more theories about the setting of the story. Here goes:
Page 35 of TBB suggests that credit cards are already invented. After researching the history of credit cards, I've concluded that ASOUE takes place in the early 2000's. Here's why:
On page 266 of TGG, Elizabeth Bishop, Charles Simic, Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Franz Wright, and Daphne Gottlieb are (possibly) suggested to be VFD members. Franz Wright and Daphne Gottlieb are both recent poets. Franz was born in 1953 and Daphne was born in 1968. Daphne didn't publish anything noteworthy until 1999. With this theory, ATWQ would take place somewhere in the the 1950's? This is because Lemony Snicket is writing ASOUE many years after the events take place.
Also, in the first chapter of TBB, it suggests that trolleys, cars, motorcycles, and horse-drawn carriages are used in the same city that the Baudelaires live in. The chapter also mentions that the Royal Gardens is already destroyed. It is unclear if the Royal Gardens that LS mentions are the Royal Gardens Apartments, which are apartments located in various parts of the U.S., mainly in California. On page 60 in TSS, Lemony mentions "warmer seasons" to suggest that TSS takes place in the Winter season. On page 77, Olaf mentions False Spring? It is unclear what False Spring is, but Spring comes after Winter, so I believe TSS is somewhere in the middle of winter. On page 38 of TBB, Klaus says he is fascinated with North American animals. It is unclear if the city they live in takes place in North America. Because Klaus turns 13 in TVV and Violet turns 15 in TGG, it suggests that the entire ASOUE series takes place in one or (possibly) two years.
In TAA, it is unclear how long semesters are at Prufrock Prep because there are no weekends. On page 48 in TAA, the Quagmires suggest that they have lived at Prufrock Prep for at least three semesters. On pages 162-170 in TSS, it suggests that Quigley arrived at Monty's house shortly after the Baudelaires left. He stayed there long enough to know when Duncan and Isadora were taken to Prufrock Prep and to know when they were kidnapped by Olaf. This means that Quigley stayed at Monty's house for an unspecified number of months. This also means that the time period from TWW to TAA is an unknown number of months. This would mean that when Olaf murdered Monty, the Quagmire house was being burned down.
I'm still working on the exact year and months the story takes place in, but I'll post it when I figure it out. I'm also working on Lemony's story as well. I have at least 4 great theories on the Sugar Bowl, but only one connects the story the best. I'll post these theories another time.
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Post by Dante on May 28, 2014 16:06:54 GMT -5
I'm impressed by your ambition in trying to narrow down the story's setting to a matter of months. I personally think that different times and places are being suggested at different parts of the text to reinforce the atmosphere and setting, and also that Handler doesn't want chronology to stand in the way of a good authorial allusion, but you're entitled to your view. I think you'll have difficulty, but I am looking forward to hearing your ideas.
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facelesscreature
Reptile Researcher
“I suppose I'll have to add the force of gravity to my list of enemies.”
Posts: 48
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Post by facelesscreature on May 28, 2014 19:57:51 GMT -5
I'm still piecing together the setting of the story. I haven't skimmed through every book again yet. However, I'm getting closer to the location and year. I thought I might share my theories about the Sugar Bowl and what I think it is in ASOUE. Here goes:
In TPP, Olaf implies that Lemony Snicket killed his parents with poison darts. On page 131 of TSS, Olaf specifically says that The Snicket file is the only file that can put him and his associates in jail. On page 186 of TSS, it suggests that Hotel Denouement is the last evidence of Olaf's plans. At this time in the story, Olaf does not know that where the Sugar Bowl is hidden. On page 101 of TSS, it suggests that whatever is in the Sugar Bowl is "small and important." It also suggests that Lemony created this "Sugar Bowl secret." At one point in the story, Lemony mentions the Sugar Bowl being thrown into the Stricken Stream to save it from the fire that destroyed the VFD headquarters.
So, here's what I think is inside the Sugar Bowl.
I think that Lemony Snicket did kill Olaf's parents because they had something to do with the Schism. I believe Beatrice helped Lemony commit the crime, but she realized that it was a villain thing to do. After killing Olaf's parents, Lemony took the poison dart(s) from the crime scene. He hid them in the Sugar Bowl and ran from the authorities. I believe his fingerprints were on the darts and that is why he keeps hiding and moving the Sugar Bowl's location from Olaf and his associates. This explains why Olaf wants the Sugar Bowl so badly. Olaf wants the evidence against Lemony to put him in jail. This is the best theory I came up with about the Sugar Bowl, but here are some more:
Another theory about the Sugar Bowl is that the Baudelaire parents' last Will and testaments are inside. This theory suggests that the Baudelaire parents' will was switched or forged so that their children would have to live with Count Olaf from the beginning.
Another theory is that the Sugar Bowl contains documents about one of the World Wars. This would explain why Lemony references World War I a couple of times in the series. Also, pages 264 and 265 of TGG says that the Baudelaire parents hid books about war and romance from their children. Also in TGG, Widdershins says that some secrets are too enormous to be told. Maybe that was what he meant.
Finally, another theory is that the Sugar Bowl contains something from the ATWQ series. Possibly the statue of the Bombinating Beast or some sort of evidence about the Inhumane Society.
Or maybe, just somehow, that all of these theories are connected in some way.
Hope you like these ideas. I will probably come up with more with enough research about everything in the books. I'll post more ideas some other time.
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Post by Dante on May 29, 2014 2:29:53 GMT -5
Relating the sugar bowl's contents to the schism, as you indirectly do in your poison dart theory, is a good idea as it's indicated in the first chapter of The End that the sugar bowl has something to do with the schism (though this is never mentioned anywhere else). ATWQ is teasing that it might throw some light upon this, but we can't be certain.
Otherwise, a couple of points to remember: 1. Olaf emphasises the involvement of the Baudelaire parents in the death of his parents; the only person who mentions Lemony being there is Lemony's own narration (and likewise, Kit is the only person who refers to her own presence at the opera in quesetion). 2. A sugar bowl is quite a small thing. You probably couldn't fit your fist inside one. Poison darts could fit, but more than one sheet of paper - and it'd have to be scrunched up - would be pushing it.
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facelesscreature
Reptile Researcher
“I suppose I'll have to add the force of gravity to my list of enemies.”
Posts: 48
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Post by facelesscreature on May 29, 2014 15:58:49 GMT -5
I've been narrowing down the setting of ASOUE some more. I've noticed in the first five books of the series that Lemony mentions a full moon at some point in each story. In the editor's note at the end of TMM, Lemony specifically says that the Baudelaires were at Prufrock Prep for a half-semester. On page 71 of TRR, Monty says that the Prospero ship would travel across the sea to get to Peru in South America. This must mean that the story is not in South America. Page 14 of TRR implies that the events of the TRR happen in 10 or 11 days. Also, Mr. Poe implies on page 17 of TRR that it takes a week to drive from the city to Monty's house. This is because he doesn't return the Baudelaire's luggage until they have been at Monty's house for 10 days. This could mean that it took about a week to drive them to Monty's house after the events of TBB. Pages 65,75,78, and 81 of TBB suggests that the Baudelaires stayed with Olaf about two weeks. With this information, TBB through the events of TRR happen in approximately one month.
I'm still working on the exact season and month of TWW and TMM, but I'm getting closer. I'll post more ideas another time.
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Post by Dante on May 29, 2014 16:03:46 GMT -5
I think you may not have interpreted Mr. Poe incorrectly on TRR page 17; on page 18, Mr. Poe says that it's only a short drive to Uncle Monty's house from the city. I would suggest he simply doesn't have time to return with the luggage until a week has passed.
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facelesscreature
Reptile Researcher
“I suppose I'll have to add the force of gravity to my list of enemies.”
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Post by facelesscreature on May 29, 2014 17:42:44 GMT -5
That's true. However, Mr. Poe could mean that the drive is shorter than most places throughout the ASOUE series. Even if not, that would still make the events of TBB through TRR almost a month. Also, it is unclear how many days, weeks or months that TMM takes place in. However, the illustrations suggest that it is sometime in the Fall because the trees have no leaves.
Getting closer to narrowing it down.
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