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Post by Dante on Sept 16, 2015 11:29:42 GMT -5
The whole story involving Kit remains a mystery, with hints that we were not reading it rightly before - did Gifford and Ghede, after all, want Lemony to take part in the exploit at the museum? Kit's presence on the train suggests that what is happening in Stain'd is part of the wider story. There's something I only just remembered a short while ago: Josephine mentions, at the end of ?3, that Gifford and Ghede were meant to help Kit. Here's what I think: Everyone had it all wrong. Gifford and Ghede wanted to stop Lemony from being taken with Theodora to Stain'd, where he'd be unable to help Kit - but rather than confide in him, they decided to just drug him to make sure. Theodora, meanwhile, learned of their intentions somehow but completely misconstrued them as malevolent. The end result is Lemony mistaking Gifford and Ghede for enemies when really they were on his side.
I imagine now that Gifford and Ghede are very much like Theodora in terms of how they make deficient volunteers; they were as interested in their reputation as success, so they drugged Lemony so as not to compromise themselves by appearing to be on his side, and they arrested Kit after her mission failed so they could be seen to be doing the right thing. I actually think these two points line up better than they seem to. Lemony eventually meets Olaf and Beatrice and is lured back to V.F.D., where the events of LS to BB #2 onwards take place. This event also leads Olaf to get mixed up with Lemony's original plans with Kit, perhaps taking over his role. Could it be that Ellington even joins forces with Olaf later on, to tarnish Lemony's name by falsely accusing him of setting the so-called Snicket fires? His actions in Stain'd-by-the-Sea would lend themselves to the formation of terribly poor reports against his name, too.
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Post by gliquey on Sept 16, 2015 12:41:59 GMT -5
Okay, so I've picked up a copy today and after this post I'm gonna leave the forum until I've finished reading ?4, which could be anywhere between a few hours and a few days. Some completely un-spoilery notes about the book itself: - The book cost £12.99, which was deeply disappointing. Could they not just have added an extra penny just this once?
- The font used for the title on the front cover looks just as terrible in real life as it did online.
- Snicket seems to be jumping on the front cover but falling on the spine. How odd. We've already had him falling before on a book spine (?1), although he was falling head-first then.
Some comments about the illustrations and first chapter (which I didn't read before now): - The nearly empty station on the front illustration reminded me of the very busy station at the start of ?1.
- "This is the account of the last." was interesting: I thought perhaps Snicket might use 'fourth' instead, although I do think 'last' makes more sense. In ASOUE, to get around this issue, Snicket called TE 'Book the Thirteenth' and Chapter Fourteen 'Book the Last'.
- The Association of Associates seem to be being brought into the canon quite quickly; Snicket calls them an ad hoc branch of V.F.D on page 4 (which doesn't really seem like a very accurate description at all) and mentions that everyone now has business cards on page 12, although they seem to have "areas of speciality" printed on them which, if I recall correctly, the card things posted on Twitter didn't have.
- "Ornette was the one who smelled the smoke" reminded me of the first question on the back of ?3 ("Do you smell smoke?").
- The confusion of the two meanings of "What?" (I didn't hear you / I was surprised at what you said) seem to be a reference to somewhere in ASOUE, although I can't for the life of me remember where.
- "My chaperone had once told me she was leaving town" is, I think, a reference to FU13. I don't think we've had very many of them in the main series.
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eescorpius
Catastrophic Captain
Posts: 58
Likes: 21
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Post by eescorpius on Sept 16, 2015 13:16:28 GMT -5
Ok seriously I am in Canada and I cannot wait for the physical copy this is too painful. Is there any way I can buy a freakin' e-copy first!?
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Post by Dante on Sept 16, 2015 13:25:54 GMT -5
- The Association of Associates seem to be being brought into the canon quite quickly; Snicket calls them an ad hoc branch of V.F.D on page 4 (which doesn't really seem like a very accurate description at all) and mentions that everyone now has business cards on page 12, although they seem to have "areas of speciality" printed on them which, if I recall correctly, the card things posted on Twitter didn't have.
Surely much of this transpired in ?3 Chapter Thirteen? Ok seriously I am in Canada and I cannot wait for the physical copy this is too painful. Is there any way I can buy a freakin' e-copy first!? As far as I know, this is a physical-only mix-up - possibly a retailer-only mix-up exclusive to Waterstones. You might be able to order a physical copy from Waterstones's website, and they do deliver internationally, but you might be better off waiting rather than dealing with such a hassle.
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eescorpius
Catastrophic Captain
Posts: 58
Likes: 21
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Post by eescorpius on Sept 16, 2015 13:56:30 GMT -5
- The Association of Associates seem to be being brought into the canon quite quickly; Snicket calls them an ad hoc branch of V.F.D on page 4 (which doesn't really seem like a very accurate description at all) and mentions that everyone now has business cards on page 12, although they seem to have "areas of speciality" printed on them which, if I recall correctly, the card things posted on Twitter didn't have.
Surely much of this transpired in ?3 Chapter Thirteen? Ok seriously I am in Canada and I cannot wait for the physical copy this is too painful. Is there any way I can buy a freakin' e-copy first!? As far as I know, this is a physical-only mix-up - possibly a retailer-only mix-up exclusive to Waterstones. You might be able to order a physical copy from Waterstones's website, and they do deliver internationally, but you might be better off waiting rather than dealing with such a hassle. Sigh by the time I get that order it will probably be the American release date already. Let me just go cry and sob in a corner while waiting for the book.
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Post by Dante on Sept 16, 2015 14:34:41 GMT -5
I'm sorry that I could only meet your first posts in a couple of years with such a depressing response, eescorpius. The world is full of disappointment.
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Post by flushbribe on Sept 16, 2015 16:58:22 GMT -5
As far as I know, this is a physical-only mix-up - possibly a retailer-only mix-up exclusive to Waterstones. Also available in physical form here for £10.39 plus postage.
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Post by Cafe SalMONAlla on Sept 17, 2015 5:49:42 GMT -5
Just an update, re the online Waterstones order idea: I'm in Australia, ordered a copy the day before yesterday, and it apparently shipped yesterday (16th). So hurrah.
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Post by B. on Sept 17, 2015 10:20:48 GMT -5
Just an update, re the online Waterstones order idea: I'm in Australia, ordered a copy the day before yesterday, and it apparently shipped yesterday (16th). So hurrah. When can you expect it, Lemona? Also now that I've driven a car, I can see how absurd it is to have one person work the pedals and the other steer. I can barely work the pedals competently sitting at the wheel "I could see her dimly in the dark, a masked bundle tied to the side of the train, like some trapped orphan in a wicked book." Got a chuckle out of this bit.
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Post by gliquey on Sept 17, 2015 11:35:55 GMT -5
Okay, so I've finished the book. I tried not to get too excited about it - I have been waiting for this for almost an entire year and I was worried the book wouldn't live up to my expectations, but it was very good. I haven't read anyone else's thoughts on it yet, but I will in a moment. - When I read "Is it more beastly to be a murderer or to let one go free?", I was thinking that Snicket would choose the latter option. This kind of question came up in TE, but the Baudelaires didn't get actually make a decision as to whether to push Olaf overboard or not: the storm interrupted their thoughts. I had always assumed the Baudelaires would never have pushed Olaf overboard, even though I think it would have been the right thing to do; it was just a moment of weakness for them in their otherwise highly moral lives. But Snicket... was Snicket right to push Hangfire to the Bombinating Beast? I'm not quite sure. I was certain Hangfire would die after Snicket mentioned there would be a second death on the train (although I thought I was wrong when Ellington 'died'), but I was still surprised how quickly and mercilessly Snicket made the decision to kill Hangfire.
- I changed my mind about seven times over the course of the novel as to whether I thought Hangfire was Armstrong Feint or not. When Ellington said "you've brought me no closer to my father" (p240), I was fairly sure that this means Ellington didn't know that Hangfire was her father, but "Give me the statue ... and you'll be side by side with your father before you know it" (p243) made me convinced that Hangfire was Ellington's dad - it's a very good line of dramatic irony.
- I thought the Bellerophons were getting a bit left out when they were left behind at Stain'd-by-the-Sea, but then I thought it odd and somewhat coincidental that they had randomly decided to follow the train so they could be there for the final chapter. I suppose it's not that unbelievable.
- I did think it was odd that Hangfire missed Ellington with his poison dart, so I'm very glad the plot twist revealed that was intentional, although I still hadn't seen that coming.
- I liked both uses of the title question. I hadn't actually realised that the title would have to be said by at least one of the characters in the novel, and for such a clumsy and specific question it was used very well.
- 'It looked like a herd of numbers having a square dance' (p28) was just a great line. I don't really know why it was so funny, but it was almost the highlight of the book. I hate train timetables too, Snicket.
- I just can't believe Snicket dislikes To Kill a Mockingbird. It's a really brilliant novel. But more importantly, Partial can't have 'only had a few chapters to go' if 'Tom is found guilty' is a spoiler to her. I checked, and the jury find Tom guilty in chapter 21, nine chapters before the end of the book.
- 'You can get anything printed on a card like this' (p72) is a nice (I think intentional) reference to TWW.
- Why does the picture on page 119 say 'WDE', when surely it should read 'WPE' (Walleye, Pocket, Eratosthenes)?
- The name/occupation/story format of asking the witnesses what they saw reminded me to TPP.
- I was interested to see Snicket use the Devil's Tongue. It made me think that perhaps this is a standard thing taught by V.F.D., and that either Beatrice or Bertrand had taught it to Violet at some point.
- I don't think R has ever been discussed so explicitly in the main canon [of ASOUE/ATWQ] before; there were some mentions of duchesses in ASOUE, but here Snicket talks about his colleague quite a bit.
- '... like some trapped orphan in a wicked book' - is this an allusion to ASOUE?
- 'weighting down' (p229) should surely be 'weighing down'.
Surely much of this transpired in ?3 Chapter Thirteen? That's a good point; I'd forgotten about Josephine talking about Snicket's associates and how she was surprised apprentices were allowed to 'recruit' people. But whenever it began, I don't like it, and I certainly don't like Snicket's friends being called an ad hoc branch of V.F.D. EDIT: And we are never told what the S. stands for. Unless it stands for Solitude. ('Solitude' is of course the name of the tune, and it is by Duke Ellington.) Thanks for that.
And I'm fairly sure 'Solitude' is not what the S. stands for. I wasn't really expecting Snicket to explain what it meant (not to say he couldn't or shouldn't have); I'm just glad he didn't say anything that contradicts the 'Sunny' theory.
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Post by Dante on Sept 17, 2015 13:02:05 GMT -5
Incidentally, one thing I called on my own account: I predicted a while before the novel came out that the reason Ornette and her talent existed was so that she could construct a fake Bombinating Beast as part of a plan to fool Hangfire, and I was completely right. Of course, it didn't work, but still. Okay, so I've finished the book. I tried not to get too excited about it - I have been waiting for this for almost an entire year and I was worried the book wouldn't live up to my expectations, but it was very good. I haven't read anyone else's thoughts on it yet, but I will in a moment. - When I read "Is it more beastly to be a murderer or to let one go free?", I was thinking that Snicket would choose the latter option. This kind of question came up in TE, but the Baudelaires didn't get actually make a decision as to whether to push Olaf overboard or not: the storm interrupted their thoughts. I had always assumed the Baudelaires would never have pushed Olaf overboard, even though I think it would have been the right thing to do; it was just a moment of weakness for them in their otherwise highly moral lives. But Snicket... was Snicket right to push Hangfire to the Bombinating Beast? I'm not quite sure. I was certain Hangfire would die after Snicket mentioned there would be a second death on the train (although I thought I was wrong when Ellington 'died'), but I was still surprised how quickly and mercilessly Snicket made the decision to kill Hangfire.
What I'm torn on, because we don't get that good a look into Lemony's head, is how justified exactly he thinks he was. He offers some justifications afterwards, but it's impossible to tell whether he really believes them. Emotionally, Lemony is hard to read. He saw an opportunity to resolve things definitively, and he took it, but here's the thing: All of ATWQ has been about Lemony resolving situations completely but badly. He asks the wrong questions, he comes up with the wrong answers, he goes about things the wrong way, he doesn't understand. So I think according to this theme, it was somewhat natural, what he did. He didn't ask the right question - about how he and everyone else would feel afterwards. Of course, it's the fact that the Baudelaires don't murder Olaf which made Lemony's own act very surprising to me; I didn't think the narrative would go there. I thought Hangfire would perhaps die in a calamity of his own making, or be, in some way, permitted to go free despite all he'd done. I suspect the possibility of the ending and Lemony's actions to provoke discussion is rather what Handler wanted. Moral questions clearly intrigue him. Since day one, I've never really doubted Hangfire's identity, so I wasn't fooled; I even anticipated the double double-cross where Ellington was tricking both of them. I didn't know for sure, but I knew for pretty sure. I think it's interesting that Hangfire must have known, of course, that since Lemony took Ellington's pulse then both of them knew she was really alive. What an absurd situation! I think the Chapter Twelve header illustration, where we clearly see the back of Hangfire's head, was also meant to be possible to link to the photograph of Armstrong Feint in Chapter Ten. Oh, and speaking of that photograph, how's this for a blast from the past? April: Friday 13th--- How can we stop him? --- --- I can't imagine where the WDE error came from, although a docket is a thing which exists and seems perhaps more appropriate than a pocket, at least; more to the point, where on Earth did Snicket come up with these names? And the ASoUE reference I am certain is absolutely intentional, even though Count Olaf never does that; I think perhaps it's foreshadowing Lemony's arguably villainous role at the end of the novel.
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Post by gliquey on Sept 17, 2015 13:37:32 GMT -5
I think it's interesting that Hangfire must have known, of course, that since Lemony took Ellington's pulse then both of them knew she was really alive. What an absurd situation! I think the Chapter Twelve header illustration, where we clearly see the back of Hangfire's head, was also meant to be possible to link to the photograph of Armstrong Feint in Chapter Ten. Oh, and speaking of that photograph, how's this for a blast from the past? April: Friday 13th--- How can we stop him? --- --- That really is hilarious when you phrase it like that.
And woah... I haven't seen that picture in a while (although it was still a couple of years old even when I saw it). Is he wearing his butler outfit? For some reason he reminds me of one.
It reminds me of your idea (I think it was your idea) that Hangfire was getting more and more close to being shown on the cover of each (U.S.) book: an abstract figure creeping over town in ?1; at the top of the stairs in ?2; his hand and shadow in ?3. I think it is a shame he isn't shown in full figure, if still with a mask on, on the cover of ?3. In any case, I think it's odd that there's been a picture of his face for such a long time, especially given the large amount of suspense in ?4 when Hangfire's mask comes off.
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Post by Cafe SalMONAlla on Sept 18, 2015 4:39:52 GMT -5
When can you expect it, Lemona? Apparently 7 - 10 working days from when it shipped.
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Post by Agathological on Sept 19, 2015 9:56:42 GMT -5
Ladies and gentleman I have finally bought it! (Wasn't put it on the shelf, but the nice young lady at the counter fetched it for me.)
I will start to read it very soon, but I must say, I am feeling a little melancholy.
Firstly, this is the day; a four year journey has come to a close and who knows what Handler will do next.
Secondly, we know what happens to Kit and Jaques; one dies in childbirth and the other dies a needless death at the hands of Esme and Olaf.
Right, I shall return in a few hours and post the many thoughts I will inevitably have!
FYI; up to chapter five; love the pic.
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Post by B. on Sept 19, 2015 12:59:55 GMT -5
ohhh maaaan dante is gonna get you in trouble
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