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Post by trip on Feb 28, 2018 23:45:30 GMT -5
i don't rly currently have anything to add that hasn't been already said here, and am far from settled in my opinion on the matter, but just wanted 2 say that i'm very glad of the discussion in this thread
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Post by Dante on Mar 2, 2018 3:54:34 GMT -5
The Wesleyan Argus is now reporting that Handler has dropped out of giving this year's commencement address at Wesleyan University in light of recent events.
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Post by gliquey on Mar 2, 2018 22:44:01 GMT -5
Hmm... I can't really tell from the article whether Handler withdrew voluntarily or was basically forced to drop out.
I think it's unfortunate that the article quotes this paragraph of Handler's apology:
This paragraph is the one that I thought was Handler acting defensive and giving a non-apology. However, there are parts of his apology which are genuinely good to hear, so I think it's a shame that the Argus just cherry-picked this section.
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weiss
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Post by weiss on Mar 3, 2018 4:58:11 GMT -5
I'm probably extremely late to this discussion, but I've been mulling over this issue for a few days now.
Is anyone else noticing a strange uncomfortable feeling when looking at the books since they heard Handler's actions?
After reading about the controversy, I've started feeling guilty. Guilty for wanting to continue reading ASOUE and related works. Guilty for even liking the series in the first place. Does anyone else get that?
Maybe it's because of my background with this kinda thing, or maybe I am a tad bit sensitive. The thing is, I can't get it outta my head. Is this normal? If anyone else know that feel, or you have a reason for it, please share. I want to like the books normally again and view Handler without any specks of uncertainty with his actions. I don't think him a terrible person, just uncomfortable in general.
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Post by Violent BUN Fortuna on Mar 3, 2018 7:47:56 GMT -5
In all honesty, no. And the thing is, I absolutely understand where you're coming from, because I was so nervous that I would experience what you have, that I wouldn't be able to look at, hold, or read the books again without it feeling wrong. But I made myself purposefully look at them and consider how I felt, and I came to a few conclusions.
1) I love ASOUE, and I always will do. I've loved these books and the characters they contain for more than half my life. They are far, far too important to the person I am today, and the person I will always be, for me to feel anything towards them but love and joy at their existence. Violet in particular has really shaped my character and I honestly would not be the same person without her and this series. I could never let that go.
2) As I mentioned somewhere earlier in this thread, I think ASOUE is a great example of feminist literature, and the allegations against Handler don't change that. As I also said, I think ASOUE represents Handler's ideals, his true values, and they are very good ones to have. If he has not always lived up to these ideals, then it is disappointing to say the least, but it doesn't negate the goodness of these books and the lessons they teach.
3) As you say, I don't believe Handler to be a terrible person. I think he's said some terrible things and made some terrible mistakes and he deserves to face the consequences of his actions, but I do believe him to be sorry for what he has said and I believe him when he says he is willing to listen and to learn. I believe in redemption and in allowing people to become better than their past selves*. I don't know how long it will take for Handler to atone fully for what he has said, but with time I believe he can do this. With this in mind, looking at, holding or reading ASOUE is as easy to me as it ever was, because I believe in the goodness of these books, and I believe that Handler can live up to this goodness, so long as he fulfills his promise to listen and learn.
The one thing I will add is that, at the moment, whenever I look at the books I am at least reminded of this current issue, even if the books feel the same to me as they ever did. I'm sure that will pass in time, but perhaps for now it's not a bad thing: remembering and considering Handler's actions is important, as they shouldn't just be forgotten and dismissed, however much easier that might be.
I'm sorry you're finding it difficult to see ASOUE in the same way as before all this. Perhaps, instead of considering the books in light of Handler and recent events, considering them in light of all the great people who read and love this series, and who have found the books to have a positive impact on their lives, might help? Just knowing that good things have come of these books could perhaps be a comforting thought.
*I want to note though, that of course what Handler said was not on the same level as sexual abuse and of course I feel there should be much stronger consequences for sexual predators and rapists. Hopefully redemption is still possible, but I don't want to give the impression that I think such people should be allowed to just say 'sorry' and go about their normal lives, because that's not what I think at all.
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weiss
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Post by weiss on Mar 3, 2018 8:47:32 GMT -5
In all honesty, no. And the thing is, I absolutely understand where you're coming from, because I was so nervous that I would experience what you have, that I wouldn't be able to look at, hold, or read the books again without it feeling wrong. But I made myself purposefully look at them and consider how I felt, and I came to a few conclusions. 1) I love ASOUE, and I always will do. I've loved these books and the characters they contain for more than half my life. They are far, far too important to the person I am today, and the person I will always be, for me to feel anything towards them but love and joy at their existence. Violet in particular has really shaped my character and I honestly would not be the same person without her and this series. I could never let that go. 2) As I mentioned somewhere earlier in this thread, I think ASOUE is a great example of feminist literature, and the allegations against Handler don't change that. As I also said, I think ASOUE represents Handler's ideals, his true values, and they are very good ones to have. If he has not always lived up to these ideals, then it is disappointing to say the least, but it doesn't negate the goodness of these books and the lessons they teach. 3) As you say, I don't believe Handler to be a terrible person. I think he's said some terrible things and made some terrible mistakes and he deserves to face the consequences of his actions, but I do believe him to be sorry for what he has said and I believe him when he says he is willing to listen and to learn. I believe in redemption and in allowing people to become better than their past selves*. I don't know how long it will take for Handler to atone fully for what he has said, but with time I believe he can do this. With this in mind, looking at, holding or reading ASOUE is as easy to me as it ever was, because I believe in the goodness of these books, and I believe that Handler can live up to this goodness, so long as he fulfills his promise to listen and learn. The one thing I will add is that, at the moment, whenever I look at the books I am at least reminded of this current issue, even if the books feel the same to me as they ever did. I'm sure that will pass in time, but perhaps for now it's not a bad thing: remembering and considering Handler's actions is important, as they shouldn't just be forgotten and dismissed, however much easier that might be. I'm sorry you're finding it difficult to see ASOUE in the same way as before all this. Perhaps, instead of considering the books in light of Handler and recent events, considering them in light of all the great people who read and love this series, and who have found the books to have a positive impact on their lives, might help? Just knowing that good things have come of these books could perhaps be a comforting thought. *I want to note though, that of course what Handler said was not on the same level as sexual abuse and of course I feel there should be much stronger consequences for sexual predators and rapists. Hopefully redemption is still possible, but I don't want to give the impression that I think such people should be allowed to just say 'sorry' and go about their normal lives, because that's not what I think at all. Ah, so many thanks for replying! I wanted to say how much your words have comforted me. Thank you. Your conclusions are just enlightening to a younger reader like me. The things you said about ASOUE itself, Handler's character and how his works influenced movements. You also made me realize how much I had unknowingly put him on a pedestal as a "good example" as a writer, and how he handles such controversies. (Donating a large sum of money, right?) The thing that stuck out to me most? The way you handle looking at the books. I gave away two of my books to my computer teacher. He wanted to try out the series after I described the things here. The books were "The Slippery Slope" and "Filed Under: 13 suspicious incidents". The reason I bring this up is because he was the first person I opened up about my issues wayy back before this blew up, and he called me a little while ago to say he enjoyed the series immensely. My science teacher who mentored me into writing and art loves ASOUE as well. She taught me history, science and many life lessons. At that, I decided to NOT give away my last two books: Penultimate Peril and ATWQ book 3. I'll keep it as a reminder of how many noble people I met love and enjoy this series to this day. Thanks so much!
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Post by A comet crashing into Earth on Mar 3, 2018 9:02:43 GMT -5
Much as I wish I could feel exactly the same as VioletBunfortunate describes, I think my feelings are actually a little bit different. In light of Handler's own imperfections, I've come to separate the author and the work in my mind more than I've done so far.
I agree that ASOUE are still great books - possibly (mostly) feminist, although I don't personally think of it so much as explicit feminism as a simple, underlying assumption that people have their own agency outside of their expected gender roles (although depending on context, such basic decency does - sadly! - actually constitute a feminist statement).
The part of the books that I'm having trouble reconciling with Handler's personal behaviour is that the brand of humour is so innocent and sophisticated, relying so heavily on clever rhetorical devices rather than just implications, lewd or otherwise. It's hard for me to imagine that a person whose writing style is like that would be so crude in his humour in spoken conversation (the 'Uniball' joke may have been done in an inappropriate setting, but unlike the other jokes, I can see it being done by the mind behind Lemony Snicket). Not least beacause I disagree with VioletBunfortunate's belief that this is a matter of distinguishing private and public conversations; I don't believe most people would make jokes like that even in private, and what shocks me about this isn't that Handler is saying these things in public, but that he says it out loud at all. It's not jokes that would ever come out of Snicket's mouth or pen, and I've maybe been needing a few examples of the concept that the narrator can be a very different person from the author (Bun - this is why I wrote earlier that I agreed with "the gist of" your thoughts, and not just the whole of it. Everything else I agree totally with, and it's pretty comforting to see your mature way of phrasing something so close to my own feelings about this).
I feel like these paragraphs are a jumble. The bottomline is that I'm currently still comfortable owning and reading the books, and will still be recommending them every chance I get, though I'm admittedly less enamoured with Handler himself than I was as a child.
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Post by Grace on Mar 3, 2018 11:08:59 GMT -5
I'm probably extremely late to this discussion, but I've been mulling over this issue for a few days now. Is anyone else noticing a strange uncomfortable feeling when looking at the books since they heard Handler's actions? After reading about the controversy, I've started feeling guilty. Guilty for wanting to continue reading ASOUE and related works. Guilty for even liking the series in the first place. Does anyone else get that? Maybe it's because of my background with this kinda thing, or maybe I am a tad bit sensitive. The thing is, I can't get it outta my head. Is this normal? If anyone else know that feel, or you have a reason for it, please share. I want to like the books normally again and view Handler without any specks of uncertainty with his actions. I don't think him a terrible person, just uncomfortable in general. That guilt is totally normal! Even if you haven't had a background with this stuff. Of course it's up to you whether you want to continue financially supporting his works or reading them at all. On a personal note, I'm so traumatized by the horrible crimes of other unmasked male celebrities that I can't see this as anything but small potatoes for the moment. But if this bothers you, that's a good thing! It's bothersome. I agree with a lot of what violetBUNfortunate says, especially about how the series can represent more than Handler for you/her/me/anyone. It can represent the wider ASOUE community which we know and love. This could also be a moment to take a lesson from the books themselves and remember how not everyone is totally good or totally evil, but is more like a chef's salad. This is not to excuse Handler's or anyone's wrongdoings, but getting him off a pedestal is definitely a good start. It's all well and good to idolize talented artists in the public eye, but they're people too, and there are things we wouldn't like about them if we met them.
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Post by Violent BUN Fortuna on Mar 3, 2018 11:54:48 GMT -5
weiss, thank you for such a lovely reply. It was really great to hear that what I said helped you, even if it was only in a small way. I don't know if the conclusions I have come to are necessarily right or wrong, but I know that ASOUE is a good thing, and something which has positively altered my life, and many other people I know. I've had friendships forged over a mutual love of this series, and your stories of the people you've connected to with ASOUE are really touching. In regards to how Handler handles (hahaha I didn't even realise I had written this until I read it back) this sort of thing, I'm not aware that he's donated any money as a result of this particular issue, but yes, he did donate a substantial sum of money after the watermelon joke.
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Post by Violent BUN Fortuna on Mar 3, 2018 12:33:16 GMT -5
Much as I wish I could feel exactly the same as VioletBunfortunate describes, I think my feelings are actually a little bit different. In light of Handler's own imperfections, I've come to separate the author and the work in my mind more than I've done so far. I agree that ASOUE are still great books - possibly (mostly) feminist, although I don't personally think of it so much as explicit feminism as a simple, underlying assumption that people have their own agency outside of their expected gender roles (although depending on context, such basic decency does - sadly! - actually constitute a feminist statement). The part of the books that I'm having trouble reconciling with Handler's personal behaviour is that the brand of humour is so innocent and sophisticated, relying so heavily on clever rhetorical devices rather than just implications, lewd or otherwise. It's hard for me to imagine that a person whose writing style is like that would be so crude in his humour in spoken conversation (the 'Uniball' joke may have been done in an inappropriate setting, but unlike the other jokes, I can see it being done by the mind behind Lemony Snicket). Not least beacause I disagree with VioletBunfortunate's belief that this is a matter of distinguishing private and public conversations; I don't believe most people would make jokes like that even in private, and what shocks me about this isn't that Handler is saying these things in public, but that he says it out loud at all. It's not jokes that would ever come out of Snicket's mouth or pen, and I've maybe been needing a few examples of the concept that the narrator can be a very different person from the author (Bun - this is why I wrote earlier that I agreed with "the gist of" your thoughts, and not just the whole of it. Everything else I agree totally with, and it's pretty comforting to see your mature way of phrasing something so close to my own feelings about this). I feel like these paragraphs are a jumble. The bottomline is that I'm currently still comfortable owning and reading the books, and will still be recommending them every chance I get, though I'm admittedly less enamoured with Handler himself than I was as a child. Thanks Comet, this was interesting to read, and I do agree with you! Firstly that yes, the books aren't exactly explicitly feminist works in that feminism is not exactly discussed, but that ASOUE is feminist more in the way the characters are portrayed, the things they do, etc. As to the point about distinguishing private and public conversations, you've brought it to my attention that perhaps I should have been a bit clearer in what I wrote before. I absolutely agree with you that most people wouldn't (or I hope they wouldn't) say the things Handler said even in private -- I certainly wouldn't, and I would be shocked if someone I knew did. They're crude and frankly not in the least bit clever or funny (not that the degree to which they are amusing is relevant), and I agree that they feel a far cry from the sophistication of Handler's writing as Snicket. However, my point was more that some people certainly do engage in this form of crude 'humour' and, within individual groups of friends people feel comfortable saying things they wouldn't normally say in public, for fear of being misunderstood or offending someone. So really, what I was trying to say before is that I think Handler has failed to recognise how offensive his 'jokes' can be, and that I think this may stem from him being comfortable to say this sort of thing in private, amongst people who know he doesn't mean any harm by it, and also from him considering himself a feminist and therefore not realising that there are things that no one should be saying, no matter how good their intentions might be. I'm not sure that I'm really making my meaning any plainer here, but essentially: I agree that even for a private conversation, the things Handler said were crude and unpleasant, and I wouldn't condone such 'jokes' in any context. However, I think that essentially Handler didn't see the harm in his comments and I feel that this ignorance may come from failing to realise that the vast majority of people will not be aware of his intentions when making a joke, and I feel like this can only stem from a more general inability to distinguish between the appropriateness of certain behaviours in public vs in private. Is that any clearer? I'm sorry if it's not -- I'm finding it quite difficult to elucidate my thoughts on this, but I hope you know that I agree with you that his comments weren't ones I would like to hear in private any more than in public.
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Post by A comet crashing into Earth on Mar 3, 2018 12:47:23 GMT -5
I do think you're getting your meaning across pretty well - at any rate, it makes sense to me. I can absolutely relate to the difficulty of putting your thoughts into words on topics like this, but I think I understand what you're saying. Thanks for elaborating!
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lanayru
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Post by lanayru on Mar 3, 2018 13:05:07 GMT -5
I'm probably extremely late to this discussion, but I've been mulling over this issue for a few days now. Is anyone else noticing a strange uncomfortable feeling when looking at the books since they heard Handler's actions? After reading about the controversy, I've started feeling guilty. Guilty for wanting to continue reading ASOUE and related works. Guilty for even liking the series in the first place. Does anyone else get that? I felt the same way for at least a few days after I initially heard about the issue on here. I had to separate myself from both the books and the Netflix series for a bit because of it. Reading some of the discussion on this thread helped me work out my feelings a bit better, and I’ve gotten to the point where I’m still okay with liking the books without feeling like I’m compromising my morals. Partly because to me he seemed like he was genuinely listening and trying to learn, and partly because, as others have said, the issue wasn’t on a more severe level. Of course, if I was one of the women he made the comments to I would probably feel differently, and I don’t fault other fans don’t feel comfortable in engaging in his works anymore. Anyways what I’m trying to say is I definitely get how you’re feeling, and it’s very legitimate! It’s always difficult when people you look up to do things that hurt other people.
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weiss
Reptile Researcher
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Post by weiss on Mar 3, 2018 20:07:03 GMT -5
I'm probably extremely late to this discussion, but I've been mulling over this issue for a few days now. Is anyone else noticing a strange uncomfortable feeling when looking at the books since they heard Handler's actions? After reading about the controversy, I've started feeling guilty. Guilty for wanting to continue reading ASOUE and related works. Guilty for even liking the series in the first place. Does anyone else get that? Maybe it's because of my background with this kinda thing, or maybe I am a tad bit sensitive. The thing is, I can't get it outta my head. Is this normal? If anyone else know that feel, or you have a reason for it, please share. I want to like the books normally again and view Handler without any specks of uncertainty with his actions. I don't think him a terrible person, just uncomfortable in general. That guilt is totally normal! Even if you haven't had a background with this stuff. Of course it's up to you whether you want to continue financially supporting his works or reading them at all. On a personal note, I'm so traumatized by the horrible crimes of other unmasked male celebrities that I can't see this as anything but small potatoes for the moment. But if this bothers you, that's a good thing! It's bothersome. I agree with a lot of what violetBUNfortunate says, especially about how the series can represent more than Handler for you/her/me/anyone. It can represent the wider ASOUE community which we know and love. This could also be a moment to take a lesson from the books themselves and remember how not everyone is totally good or totally evil, but is more like a chef's salad. This is not to excuse Handler's or anyone's wrongdoings, but getting him off a pedestal is definitely a good start. It's all well and good to idolize talented artists in the public eye, but they're people too, and there are things we wouldn't like about them if we met them. yup, you're right! And thanks for explaining the weird guilty feeling. It dwindled a lot but it's still there. I know, I would never have thought of thinking of the series as a shared interest among wonderful people No, I get what you're saying! The broken expectations are totally my fault, and people aren't really as black-and-white as I used to think. Thankies for replying -w-
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weiss
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Post by weiss on Mar 3, 2018 20:12:11 GMT -5
Much as I wish I could feel exactly the same as VioletBunfortunate describes, I think my feelings are actually a little bit different. In light of Handler's own imperfections, I've come to separate the author and the work in my mind more than I've done so far. I agree that ASOUE are still great books - possibly (mostly) feminist, although I don't personally think of it so much as explicit feminism as a simple, underlying assumption that people have their own agency outside of their expected gender roles (although depending on context, such basic decency does - sadly! - actually constitute a feminist statement). The part of the books that I'm having trouble reconciling with Handler's personal behaviour is that the brand of humour is so innocent and sophisticated, relying so heavily on clever rhetorical devices rather than just implications, lewd or otherwise. It's hard for me to imagine that a person whose writing style is like that would be so crude in his humour in spoken conversation (the 'Uniball' joke may have been done in an inappropriate setting, but unlike the other jokes, I can see it being done by the mind behind Lemony Snicket). Not least beacause I disagree with VioletBunfortunate's belief that this is a matter of distinguishing private and public conversations; I don't believe most people would make jokes like that even in private, and what shocks me about this isn't that Handler is saying these things in public, but that he says it out loud at all. It's not jokes that would ever come out of Snicket's mouth or pen, and I've maybe been needing a few examples of the concept that the narrator can be a very different person from the author (Bun - this is why I wrote earlier that I agreed with "the gist of" your thoughts, and not just the whole of it. Everything else I agree totally with, and it's pretty comforting to see your mature way of phrasing something so close to my own feelings about this). I feel like these paragraphs are a jumble. The bottomline is that I'm currently still comfortable owning and reading the books, and will still be recommending them every chance I get, though I'm admittedly less enamoured with Handler himself than I was as a child. This is definitely not a jumble I see where you're coming from. It's so weird to hear Handler say such insensitive things when he came across as so... like, sophisticated? is that it? in his writing. I'm glad you can enjoy reading the books still! They're wonderful books, we should just separate the author from his works
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weiss
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Post by weiss on Mar 3, 2018 20:18:16 GMT -5
I'm probably extremely late to this discussion, but I've been mulling over this issue for a few days now. Is anyone else noticing a strange uncomfortable feeling when looking at the books since they heard Handler's actions? After reading about the controversy, I've started feeling guilty. Guilty for wanting to continue reading ASOUE and related works. Guilty for even liking the series in the first place. Does anyone else get that? I felt the same way for at least a few days after I initially heard about the issue on here. I had to separate myself from both the books and the Netflix series for a bit because of it. Reading some of the discussion on this thread helped me work out my feelings a bit better, and I’ve gotten to the point where I’m still okay with liking the books without feeling like I’m compromising my morals. Partly because to me he seemed like he was genuinely listening and trying to learn, and partly because, as others have said, the issue wasn’t on a more severe level. Of course, if I was one of the women he made the comments to I would probably feel differently, and I don’t fault other fans don’t feel comfortable in engaging in his works anymore. Anyways what I’m trying to say is I definitely get how you’re feeling, and it’s very legitimate! It’s always difficult when people you look up to do things that hurt other people. Thanks for replying so thoughtfully I think it's great you can still look at the books and read them without weird feels! And you definitely hit the nail on the head. He has apologized but his fans may now view him differently. The last sentence really gets me I think everyone was shocked to see this issue crop up, especially from such a famous author.
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