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Post by Liam R. Findlay on Jan 1, 2019 14:31:40 GMT -5
Here, you can discuss Netflix's episodes of The Grim Grotto. One shall assume everyone engaging has watched the episodes or is happy with spoilers.
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Post by Violent BUN Fortuna on Jan 1, 2019 15:58:38 GMT -5
Seen them, but just commenting for now to keep track of this thread! A lot to discuss about these episodes, so I need to properly formulate my thoughts before splurging them all out.
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Post by veryferociousdrama on Jan 1, 2019 17:04:20 GMT -5
I'm impressed they made my least favourite of the later books interesting. You really feel sorry for Fernald here, anyone else he maybe has a thing for Olaf? Fiona was also good, a bit younger than I imagined though. The ending was also very good, Mr. Poe was actually all right for once.
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Post by mortinson51 on Jan 1, 2019 17:48:43 GMT -5
I thought these episodes were good but not great. I think it had a tough job because I don't really like the TGG book. They did a good job adapting a lot of the elements form the book. The weird Olaf laugh made sense why he was doing it. (Even though I still don't like it)
Fernald and Fiona's story were good. I didn't mind the deletion of Captain Widdershins. I really like Fernald's flashback I thought that was really well done.
I know a lot of people are going to be upset that they confirmed The Great Unknown as the Bombinating Beast. I personally don't mind that because I thought Handler pretty much did that in the books. I thought it's design was very cool and menacing. I liked the seaweed feel to its skin. The only thing I was disappointed by was the sound it made. I didn't find it all that scary.
All in all an OK episode.
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lanayru
Catastrophic Captain
Posts: 69
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Post by lanayru on Jan 2, 2019 3:47:14 GMT -5
I only had enough time to watch part 1 tonight.
-That part where Olaf twisted Fernald’s arm behind his back legitimately shocked me. It was so sudden, and surprisingly violent for the show.
-How Fernald was being treated in general was just. Sad. They did a great job in having us empathize with him.
-Quigley showing up in this episode was unexpected, even more so when he got to see the Baudelaires briefly. I have to say, though, I don’t dislike him having an extended role, even if it ends up being small. I always felt like he had so little time in the books. Plus, it emphasized the theme of the Baudelaires and the Quagmires being just out of reach again.
-So uhhhhh the Great Unknown seems to be confirmed as a sea creature. Are we assuming that’s the Bombinating Beast?
-Perhaps an unpopular opinion but I don’t mind Widdershins being gone. I think if he was there it might’ve been a bit crowded. The episode had an isolated feeling since they were confined in submarines for most of it, which I like.
-“When did you change?”
-The Medusoid Mycelium was not what I expected. Interesting, nonetheless.
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Post by Groge on Jan 2, 2019 6:43:08 GMT -5
Taking Cpt Widdinshins out seemed ok. Put more focus on Fiona and Fermald which I liked. I liked the flashback of Fermald too.
Great to see Phil again!
The inclusion of Quigley was nice as he came and went in TSS (book) so quickly. Was great to see the sugar bowl journey in between TSS and TPP.
Seeing The Great Unknown as a sea monster heavily implies that it is perhaps the Bombinating Beast.
However, I believe it was just to add a little bit more of real danger and action. Also, it gives viewers unfamiliar with the books a more literal and direct answer: the Great Unknown is a sea monster. As we all know, as 1 of the snow scouts points out, it's a metaphor for death.
Having both is to satisfy all theories. It's this adaptions way of saying The Great Unknown is both a sea monster and a metaphor.
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Post by Uncle Algernon on Jan 2, 2019 7:19:18 GMT -5
Having both is to satisfy all theories. It's this adaptions way of saying The Great Unknown is both a sea monster and a metaphor. But it removes the possibility that it's a beast-shaped submarine ship like the Carmelita. Which is less of a big deal without the Quagmires being "eaten" by it, of course.
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Post by Dante on Jan 2, 2019 16:19:10 GMT -5
I felt that this one was a botch, for a number of reasons. The Great Unknown I talk about elsewhere, but you should consider the implications for the books if the Great Unknown is simply a dangerous sea monster which eats people. A more critical problem will become obvious only in hindsight, so for forward viewers I won't bring it up yet. But what bothered me most was the restructuring of the story. With the Queequeg captured in its first encounter with Olaf, the story loses a great deal of its resemblance to the original. The Baudelaires spend less time with Fiona; they spend barely any time at all in Gorgonian Grotto, which lest we forget is the location the whole book is named after. Many of the great twists and moments of impact in the original story are diluted by being twisted around; the disaster of the return from the grotto, Fiona's reunion with Fernald. Part Two is a strange mess, with nothing resembling a climax but a dragged-out epilogue that manages to fill up a good third of the episode. On a micro level, a lot of the dialogue and performances are perfectly fine; Fiona is I think a little too abrasive but is also a more complex character, and her open flirting with Klaus is quite refreshing. I'll compliment the story for having the Baudelaires actually make an effort to help the Snow Scouts - something which, amazingly, did not even cross their minds in the original text. But I don't see anything these episodes did right which couldn't have been done as well or better by retaining more of the original structure of the story.
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Post by Mr. Dent on Jan 2, 2019 19:30:10 GMT -5
I liked these episodes, but was a bit disappointed in them I must admit. Fernald and Fiona were excellent, but the overall atmosphere here was totally different than that of the books. Probably because of how little time was spent in the Grotto, and how little time was spent apart from Olaf and Esme. I thought the set for the Carmelita was absolutely excellent, though.
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Post by Violent BUN Fortuna on Jan 4, 2019 20:47:47 GMT -5
Right, here we go, my thoughts on these episodes.
Overall, I really enjoyed them but they were definitely my least favourite of season 3, because they made a lot of changes from the book which I think went beyond unnecessary into 'hurting the story' territory. I found that sad, because I adore TGG and I was really looking forward to a lot of things which didn't make it on screen. That said, I still loved so much about these episodes, and I think they were well made -- just too many changes.
Anyway, here are my thoughts in greater detail:
This doesn't really fit as something I loved or something I disliked, so I'm just going to say now that I found it really funny when Fiona said 'When you think of me, think of a food you love very much.' to Klaus because, unless I somehow missed it, they never discussed creating a food based code in the show. So that line just came out of nowhere and sounded so strange without context.
Things I Loved:
VIOLET VIOLET VIOLET VIOLET she’s just the best OK (this is how I wrote it out in my notes immediately after finishing the episodes, so I'm preserving my first thought in its original form in order to convey just how amazing Violet is. Thank you and goodnight.).
Once again, and as always, the sets are just wonderful. One of the things I really enjoy in TGG is the atmosphere Handler infuses into it, and The Queequeg plays a big part of that. Although in my mind I imagined it somewhat differently (mostly as a somewhat more dilapitated version of what we see on screen), I think the look they went for still achieved the same sort of feeling; they showed the Queequeg in its heyday instead of its decline, but it was still absolutely The Queequeg, if that makes sense. All the copper and brass, the cosy lighting, and the decorations were really nicely done. I especially loved the library with all those gorgeous worn books.
I also thought the design of Anwhistle Aquatics was very nice; both pre and post fire.
Also, of course, the costumes. Esmé's Octopus dress was amazing and her awkwardness getting through the doors/hatches was just spot on.
I've always been totally on Violet's side against Fiona and I really enjoyed rooting for her to be proved right about Fiona.
Sunny’s facial expressions continues to crack me up. She's adorable and hilarious. Seeing TGU on the sonar screen worked really well, I think. They managed to make it a very chilling scene.
Actually seeing TGU. I didn’t know how I felt about it until now but I really liked seeing it. It was beautiful. Personally, I enjoy the fact that it can be both this mysterious thing/death metaphor and also just a living breathing creature; essentially I agree with what Snicket writes about it in ATWQ. That said, I am speaking totally from the perspective of a fan who likes seeing connections between all the different parts of the world. When I step back and think purely about this one adaptation and this one scene, I would have liked them not to show it quite so clearly on screen purely because I liked the Baudelaires themselves not knowing what it was at all. I think it's absolutely fine for US to know, but I don't think the characters should have been shown it. But honestly, I just like it being both this mysterious entity and this totally normal (kind of), living, breathing creature so much that I don't begrudge them showing us that. And of course all the ATWQ references were great.
The imprint of the sugar bowl in the sand was somehow absolutely hilarious to me. I just love little things like that. I also enjoyed seeing the sugar bowl's journey.
Lemony in that tiny sub vessel thing was similarly highly amusing.
Fernald’s attempts to please Olaf were very endearing. I enjoy how flustered he gets about the little things.
I was also glad to see the ludicrous villainous laughter make an appearance.
Phil!!! Watching it a second time I especially appreciated his presence. He was great.
Things I disliked:
They. Didn't. Include. The. Line. 'You're a marshmallow, Carmelita.'
Now originally I wrote that some parts felt rushed, but I've just watched the entire season for a second time and I didn't feel that so much this time: perhaps it was just a symptom of having waited so long and then watching everything so suddenly.
I loved the scene of them searching through all the detritus in the Gorgonian Grotto in the book; I didn’t like that there was just one volunteer factual dispatch and barely anything else down there. That seemed a shame, because they could have uncovered so much.
Overall, as I said before, there were just too many major changes for my taste.
Although I see other people enjoyed his presence, I didn't like Quigley turning up again. Not because I don't like him -- Quigley's great -- but I felt that it was way, way more impactful to have him out of reach and communicate only by the Volunteer Factual Dispatch, rather than for him to actually see the Baudelaires in the flesh. Blocking him from Violet with the Medusoid Mycelium was a nice idea but nowhere near as emotional or, I think, beautiful a moment as it was in the book when Violet searched the telegram for his name. His appearance also served to get rid of the mysterious swimming woman, which was a shame in my opinion. I think in these cases restraint is key: it's tempting to show everything, but it's so so much more tantalising to have the characters miss each other, to have them long to see each other but only able to communicate in the most convoluted way possible, via codes and telegrams. The book was able to create so much more intrigue and mystery.
Right then. Fiona. OK, so I’ve always disliked Fiona and am 100% on Violet’s side when they clash. But I didn’t like how much they ramped up the animosity between Violet and Fiona, because it was way more subtle than that in the book (though that said, when Fiona gets more power/is under more pressure she gets increasingly volatile in the book so it wasn’t so much that it felt out of character — I could believe her to behave in the (in my opinion) ghastly way she was doing — but just that I missed the more subtle character development of the book. And on that note, I did not like Klaus saying Violet and Fiona are similar, because they’re really not. In particular, I strongly object to the decision to make Fiona mechanically skilled. She wasn't mechanically minded at all in the book, and making her so good at mechanics in the show was very obviously a device to undermine Violet. Not that other people can't be good at mechanics, of course they can, but Fiona’s a mycologist, not an inventor, and her sudden ability to fix things took away from Violet’s role and was simply designed to do just that — undermine Violet and pit them against each other. It's insulting to Violet's character to reduce her role, and also insulting to Fiona's that it was deemed necessary to give her an extra skill -- as if her mycology skills weren't worth enough on their own.
Also it doesn’t make sense for Klaus to like Fiona so much when she was being so openly rude to Violet right from the beginning. I didn’t like how he was stuck between them — surely, in such a situation, he should have been on Violet’s side when Fiona was so rude; even if he agreed with Fiona's plans, he would have stuck up more for Violet, I think. In the book, Fiona's volatility is slowly revealed, so you can see why Klaus likes her, because she has many good qualities and her worse traits don't immediately show themselves. Here, I just couldn't see why he would like her at all.
Ultimately, I just really wish Captain Widdershins had been included. I always wanted him to be in the show, but I was willing to see how they might use his absence to perhaps further explore Fiona's character. Instead, I feel his absence only led to Fiona's character becoming too exaggerated and therefore simplified, and, to a lesser extent, the same thing happening to Klaus.
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Post by meinhard1 on Jan 6, 2019 14:13:55 GMT -5
Darn, I was just thinking how this show contains mainy of the lines I loved as a kid, but now I can’t unsee the loss of “you’re a marshmallow Carmelita”
I don’t know if I perhaps benefited from a hazy recollection of this particular book, but I thought these episodes were great. The smaller cast was the biggest plus. All the Olaf scenes served purpose: final character development for this show’s excellent Fernald, growing tension between Olaf and Esme, and Olaf’s internal episode of melancholy. Sunny’s scenes with Phil were adorable. Violet and Klaus experience tension, but continue to show their mutual respect, which is one of their endearing traits. In the second episode Fernald has his heroic moment, the chef salad / noble person theme is addressed well, and we have the final scene on Briny Beach which was highly anticipated by me.
Overall this set of episode benefits from one of the more interesting settings, character focused plots, and big developments leading into TPP. The shows campiness was does oddly come across more in this shows shortest episode ... but again a lot happens in it as well. I think Fiona is realized in an interesting way, but somewhat overacted (Esme goes overboard in a few lines as well haha); Carmelitas scenes dancing for the snow scouts were better in the books
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Post by Violent BUN Fortuna on Jan 6, 2019 19:18:47 GMT -5
Oh I just remembered another thing I loved: Esmé's maniacal laughter/screaming when she thinks she's going to get the sugar bowl. That was hilarious and so well done -- also brilliantly contrasted with Olaf's lack of enthusiasm.
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Post by Christmas Chief on Jan 14, 2019 2:33:45 GMT -5
The more I watched these two episodes, the more I forgot the plotlines in TGG. This adaptation definitely strays from the book more than any of the other episodes, which I suppose makes it easier to view the show as its own entity more than the other episodes. Part 1 plunges us midway through TGG, where the action picks up. This strategy has its drawbacks - the characters have less time to develop and there's not as much room for the quieter moments in TGG that make the book most thought-provoking. For example, the Baudelaires don't read poetry, Fernald doesn't develop much of his philosophy on the chef's salad, the children and Fiona don't spend time enjoying each others company. However, viewers get a clearer view of the stakes straightaway and danger is always around the corner in the form of the Great Unknown, the Carmelita, or the Medusoid Mycelium. The makers' decision to focus on the action over the slower literary elements was probably a wise move for the medium, but it ran out of steam a bit in Part 2, where much of the episode is just spent looking for horseradish or a culinary equivalent. Although certain themes present in book TGG are ignored or less developed in the show, the episodes emphasize themes of its own: whether one should prioritize people over ideas, and what it means to do so; when to choose safety over intrigue or the pursuit of knowledge, and what consequences that might bear. The Baudelaires choose intrigue, of course, and the remainder of the series does a great job raising the stakes of that decision. Additionally, the omniscient perspective of the narration allows us to see more stories than just the Baudelaires', which throughout the series offers intriguing glimpses into the ongoing of other characters' lives and the workings of V.F.D. In TGG, we get scenes between Olaf, Esme, Carmelita, and Fernald that encapsulate the anti-family and help justify Fernald's decision to give away the time and date of the last safe place. Herman Melville's tendency to dramatize "poor sailors and exploited youngsters" becomes "poor sailors and young people" - did the writers decide "exploited" was too strong? Upon reflection, I did not miss Widdershins as much as I thought I would, and this is why: The characters in this series don't withhold information on purpose, for the most part - they're interrupted, or out of time, or captured. Either Widdershins would have been a character with all the answers but unwilling to share them, which would have made him a frustrating annoyance since there is no precedent or established reason for that behavior, or he would have no more answers than the Baudelaires and Fiona, in which case his intrigue as an older, wiser member of V.F.D. would diminish. The balance between Widdershins as knowledgeable and Widdershins as noble(ish) is best achieved by leaving him off-screen. The Baudelaires spend less time with Fiona; they spend barely any time at all in Gorgonian Grotto, which lest we forget is the location the whole book is named after. Yes, and it was especially strange that Fiona did not come with them to the Grotto, where her mycology knowledge would have most occasion to wax. This was another quiet moment deleted from the show - the time the Baudelaires spent searching through the sands in the grotto. It seems like a missed opportunity to add to the backstory of V.F.D., or allude to future events, or tie up loose ends. The series does a great job with all three of those tasks, so I would have enjoyed seeing more of it via the grotto. In particular, I strongly object to the decision to make Fiona mechanically skilled. She wasn't mechanically minded at all in the book, and making her so good at mechanics in the show was very obviously a device to undermine Violet. Not that other people can't be good at mechanics, of course they can, but Fiona’s a mycologist, not an inventor, and her sudden ability to fix things took away from Violet’s role and was simply designed to do just that — undermine Violet and pit them against each other. It's insulting to Violet's character to reduce her role, and also insulting to Fiona's that it was deemed necessary to give her an extra skill -- as if her mycology skills weren't worth enough on their own. Interesting. How do you think Fiona's ability to fix things undermined her mycology skills? Although we didn't see much of either skill in use, unfortunately, it seemed that having things already fixed and ready to go afforded more time to plot and character development, regardless of who fixed them. Do you think seeing Violet in a situation where she didn't need to invent helped give her value outside her specific skill set, or detracted from her character because her personality is so closely tied to her skill set?
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Post by Violent BUN Fortuna on Jan 14, 2019 6:32:52 GMT -5
In particular, I strongly object to the decision to make Fiona mechanically skilled. She wasn't mechanically minded at all in the book, and making her so good at mechanics in the show was very obviously a device to undermine Violet. Not that other people can't be good at mechanics, of course they can, but Fiona’s a mycologist, not an inventor, and her sudden ability to fix things took away from Violet’s role and was simply designed to do just that — undermine Violet and pit them against each other. It's insulting to Violet's character to reduce her role, and also insulting to Fiona's that it was deemed necessary to give her an extra skill -- as if her mycology skills weren't worth enough on their own. Interesting. How do you think Fiona's ability to fix things undermined her mycology skills? Although we didn't see much of either skill in use, unfortunately, it seemed that having things already fixed and ready to go afforded more time to plot and character development, regardless of who fixed them. Do you think seeing Violet in a situation where she didn't need to invent helped give her value outside her specific skill set, or detracted from her character because her personality is so closely tied to her skill set? It's not so much that I think giving Fiona the ability to fix things undermined her mycological skills -- people can, of course, be good at more than one thing, and certainly we see the Baudelaires and many other characters in the series taking on tasks which are outside their normal comfort zone, as it were, and succeeding in them -- but that I think it undermined her. Her mycological skills were still there (although, as you say, we don't see that much of them, and perhaps that's part of the problem -- why give her a new skill if you're not even going to properly explore the first?), so they in themselves weren't undermined, but the very act of giving her this new skill, which didn't add anything significant to the storyline, gave the impression that mycology alone wasn't good enough, that she was lacking something. In addition to this, the change was so clearly designed to pit her against Violet that I found it kind of distasteful: it wasn't character development, it was just an excuse to create drama. I never like changing things for change's sake, and that was what this felt like to me. It didn't really add anything significant to the story, other than the increased tension between her and Violet, and personally I much preferred the subtlety of their animosity in the book, which felt much more developed. I've seen a number of people mentioning that the show tried to give room for more character development in these episodes, and if that had succeeded perhaps I wouldn't have minded the changes so much, but I didn't even feel like her character was developed as well as it was in the book, let alone better. In essence, it just felt like a totally unnecessary change, and I would have much preferred them to focus more on her mycological skills, and develop them further, rather than just giving her this other skill which was clearly designed to do little more than provide tension between her and Violet. As to your question about Violet (and I must say, it's a really good question which really made me reflect on things), I'm kind of in neither camp on that one. I certainly don't think that seeing her in a situation where she didn't need to invent detracted from her character -- I love seeing her invent things, but I've also always loved all the little moments in the books where we see or hear about her enjoying other activities, or showing skill in other areas. I love how she manages to put aside inventing and focus on researching when she needs to in TMM. I love all the little memories of times with her family, like burning the toast and spilling the nail polish on the chair -- moments which have nothing to do with inventing. I adore seeing her care for her siblings, and the pressure she feels to always protect them. I think Violet is a wonderfully developed character, and while her inventing skill is obviously one of her most defining traits, she has so much more to her than just being an inventor. So no, I'm quite happy to see her doing other things. All that said, do I think seeing her in this situation where she had no need for inventing things actually helped to give her value outside her specific skill set? Not particularly, firstly because I think she already had value outside inventing, and secondly because we didn't really see her do much instead of inventing. She wandered around the ship to check everything was OK, and she argued with Fiona and Klaus: she already does both of these things in the book, more or less, although admittedly in the book she doesn't really have enough time to check ALL the machinery. So again, it doesn't feel like they've given her character anything, but that they've just taken from it. They've taken away opportunities for her to use her inventing skills, and used that time to simply lengthen and heighten the arguments between her, Klaus, and Fiona. To me that just feels like a disservice to her character: undermining opportunities for her to shine in order to simply over-exaggerate a conflict which was already present in the books, and which I don't think needed tampering with. The only change which I guess was a sort of character development for the pair of them was Fiona giving Violet her captain's hat, but this was a minimal change considering in the book she told them to take good care of the Queequeg, thus essentially handing over her captaincy anyway. Anyway, thank you very much for posing such interesting questions -- I probably enjoyed answering them too much, as I seem to have written rather a lot! I'm afraid, reading it back, it sounds as though I hated these episodes, which really isn't the case at all -- there were many things about them that I really really admired; I just found this particular change very poor.
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Post by Dante on Jan 14, 2019 10:10:03 GMT -5
The more I think about the structural changes made in Netflix's TGG, the more I understand why the original book made the choices it did. When I see a change in the Netflix series, I expect it to be an improvement, or at the very least something which will work better for the medium; but so many of the changes in TGG seem detrimental. I can live with writing out Widdershins, but I think in the process Fiona inherited too many of his flaws; what particularly exasperated me was the decision to hand the "or she" comment on "He who hesitates is lost" to Violet instead, a direct trade-off which cuts one of the features we admire about Fiona and puts it in Violet's hands instead. The writers choose to emphasise her as just another unreliable authority figure rather than as a friend - and hence she is separated from the Baudelaires for a good three or four chapters' worth of story which she actually spent with them in the book. I have to say that my impression of Part 1 in particular was that it was written by somebody who didn't like Fiona; it engages in so many little moments that undermine her relationship with the Baudelaires and undermine her as a character.
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