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Post by Uncle Algernon on Jan 19, 2019 8:26:08 GMT -5
I think the intention of the scene (indeed, all its humor) is that the Baudelaires' plan fails spectacularly as they fail to save any single one of the people they save. To assume that Babs, Jerome, Nero, the Duo, etc. don't die is, I think, robbing the scene of its potency.
Though as far as fanonica elucubrations go, I do like the idea of Carmelita just barely escaping after seeing Esmé die, and this driving her future character development; and one (but not both) of the Sinister Duo dying in the fire is my headcanon for the book version of events.
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Post by Dante on Jan 19, 2019 9:17:26 GMT -5
I suspect the intention is for us to conclude that the sinister duo died, because this would wrap up the subplot of their recent serial arson and kidnapping spree. The show is otherwise quite interested in tying up loose ends, and having two major villains continuing to run loose, with its implications for the now-rescued Snow Scouts, seems out of character. I would imagine this is also part of why Justice Strauss is shown to have survived; she now knows the truth about her colleagues and can also take steps to counteract their activities.
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Post by Mr. Dent on Jan 19, 2019 15:32:48 GMT -5
I think that there were probably many unnamed survivors, but of the characters we know I'm inclined to think only Poe and Nero survived. It's just Poe's luck. (It's more or less impossible for him to have survived in the book, though.) The Sinister Duo seemed to believe Olaf completely, so I feel they perished. Esme seemed to believe Olaf not at all, so I think she perished as well. Carmelita would have followed Esme to hell, so I suspect she did exactly that. As for Jerome and Babs? Sad though it is, I think they probably would have stayed put.
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Post by Carrie E. Abelabudite on Feb 24, 2019 11:07:11 GMT -5
When Olaf, Carmelita and Esme are in the lobby, Olaf states that Carmelita's parents won't pay the ransom, but then later on in the same scene, he says their house was burnt down with them inside it. Did they just survive the fire then? I was a little confused about that.
I thought the 'simultaneous chapters' worked really well, and I also liked how the elephant poem was incorporated - not as much time is spent on it as in the book, but the point still comes across.
On the other hand, I wish other characters had talked about destiny instead of just Lemony.
It does seem like Larry is going to get a last minute reprieve - until it doesn't. I do see why they wanted to kill him off, though, and I think it was a good way to show Ernest's villainy.
I think the JS plot line was actually handled better than in the book. Here, it seems like all the JS's are accounted for, and I liked that the Baudelaires actually were able to come up with a few suggestions as to who it could be.
I thought it was good that Justice Strauss referenced Why Is This Night Different From All Other Nights? - I liked that they emphasised the parallels between the two stories.
The book on Dewey's desk is called An Introduction to MacGuffins. I love how this series has so many little things that you don't always spot the first time; that was such a staple in the books too.
I wish they'd kept Olaf telling Esme that she could exit their relationship by mutual agreement.
The Baudelaires say that if not for Esme, Olaf would have got their fortune already but I don't see how this is true?
I loved the Baudelaires' testimony during the trial, and Olaf's response. I didn't like how the Baudelaires were the ones inviting him to speak, though.
I thought the night at the opera was good; it made sense to combine the events the way they did. The problem is it's not really dwelt on enough - we don't actually see the Baudelaires questioning Beatrice's morality.
I thought it was a little contrived for the other judges to be sitting above the lobby, but it works okay. It's not that far of a stretch from 'justice is blind' I guess. As in the books, the moment when their true identity is revealed is brilliant.
The image of the Baudelaires hoisting the sail on the boat was wonderfully surreal.
As for the fire, I would say the only person whose fate is unambiguous is Justice Strauss. I mean, it didn't seem too hopeful that the people the Baudelaires talked to would be able to leave the hotel, but that's also the case in the book. If Justice Strauss can make it out alive, so can anyone else. Or not. In the book, I was sure she died, but now I think about it, if she had, how would Lemony have found out what happened on the roof before the Baudelaires left?
I loved getting to see Lemony start his investigation. The moment when Lemony is narrating, but it's 'present' Lemony was fantastic. And the reprise of That's Not How the Story Goes was great. The lyrics might be even more apt here than at the end of TMM. Lemony's face when he said he didn't know what happened to the Baudelaries was so heartbreaking!
I sort of wish they'd kept Lemony talking about the meaning of the word 'denouement', but maybe it would have come across as a bit on-the-nose.
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Post by Uncle Algernon on Feb 24, 2019 12:14:34 GMT -5
When Olaf, Carmelita and Esme are in the lobby, Olaf states that Carmelita's parents won't pay the ransom, but then later on in the same scene, he says their house was burnt down with them inside it. Did they just survive the fire then? I was a little confused about that. Esmé has to remind Olaf that they burned down Spats Manor (that's how we the audience learn it happened), so presumably they refused to burn the ransom and Olaf & Co. subsequently set fire to their house in spite; then Olaf forgot about it for a moment and remained stuck on "they won't pay the ransom, damn them", hence his comment in the lobby, until Esmé reminded him what had happened. The Baudelaires say that if not for Esme, Olaf would have got their fortune already but I don't see how this is true? It's a bit of a shaky argument, but the idea is that her focus on getting the Sugar Bowl led Olaf to waste prime opportunities to scheme to get the Baudelaires' fortunes. Most recently, in The Grim Grotto, she insisted on endangering them by sending them down into the Grotto for the Sugar Bowl, which led to Sunny getting sick from the Mycellium, which led to Fernald having a change of heart and helping them escape, which they might not have otherwise. As for the fire, I would say the only person whose fate is unambiguous is Justice Strauss. I mean, it didn't seem too hopeful that the people the Baudelaires talked to would be able to leave the hotel, but that's also the case in the book. If Justice Strauss can make it out alive, so can anyone else. The option is left open that they might have survived, sure, but it robs the scene of a lot of its potency if they did.
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Post by Carrie E. Abelabudite on Feb 24, 2019 18:06:06 GMT -5
But weren't the Sinister Duo always going to set the fire, even before Olaf and Esme met up with Carmelita? I'm not sure when they would have had time to ask for a ransom, when the original plan to get the money was essentially just to coerce the now-orphaned Snow Scouts into handing it over. Okay, yeah, that works.
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Post by Foxy on Feb 25, 2019 8:53:53 GMT -5
I loved that the show included "Julio Sham" as one of the possibilities for J.S. I vaguely remember this being brought up an quickly shunned as ridiculous on the website I was on, but I am glad it was not shunned in the TV show.
The Denouement brothers were fantastic!
I thought they were going to show all three children's adventures at the same time on split screen, and I was both excited and terrified. But I thought the way they handled the situation with Snicket's line was very funny.
I wish Hal could have been on the show. He was one of my favorite non-main characters, right up there with Phil.
I thought what they did to Larry was far too gruesome.
I was shocked Justice Strauss made it out of the hotel alive, but happy. I doubt Jerome and Babs made it out, as they decided to compromise and just stand there. I didn't like how Jerome was in the sauna instead of with Justice Strauss in the taxi, but it was kind of funny how Mr. Poe was the author of OLAF instead of Jerome.
Dewey dying was heartbreaking, and Olaf's father dying was so sad, too. I think they really did well creating Olaf's backstory, and suddenly you see the madness behind the maniacal villain.
I was ecstatic about making Lemony the mysterious taxi driver! I always thought it was him. I loved how he was worked into the story in general. I have a feeling I am going to be very sad when I watch the next episode.
I loved all the random people who were at the trial, like the trolley driver! And I liked the song from the first season coming back. Also, speaking of music, my husband loves Count Olaf's theme, and it was super grand on string at the trial! I love the Baudelaire's theme whenever something is actually going well for them. And the bell sounds at the very beginning of the theme song never fail to make me excited about watching the episode. Anyway, I'm not sure how I feel about the kids finally getting to tell their story. Also, I hate how Sunny is left out ALL THE TIME!!! Other than saying her name and occupation, she got to say nothing, and the camera always shows just Violet and Klaus. She is only shown sitting on the other side of Mr. Poe when the kids sit back down, and she doesn't even get to put her foot in the elevator door to stop it from closing. You don't even see her until the elevator opens in the basement. Boo hiss.
I think Beatrice threw the dart on accident. I think it was like how the children were surprised and accidentally dropped the harpoon gun and killed Dewey. She was surprised the fire chief came out and threw the dart because she wasn't thinking clearly. I liked the explanation of what happened at the opera that night, even though it was terribly sad. I liked that we finally got answers, even though it doesn't quite line up with what we know about the books, how the parents went to the opera together. But I loved that Beatrice could sing! And real, opera singing!!! If I have to venture a guess, I would guess the song is an aria from La Forza del Destino.
I like that they kept the line about Justice Strauss being a horse thief, but I wish she would have said it to Esme like she did in the book. I finally get why the kids left the scene of the crime. No one was going to help them.
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Post by Carrie E. Abelabudite on Feb 25, 2019 9:12:48 GMT -5
I think he was originally going to be the waiter in the restaurant, but the actor was unavailable, so they got Patrick Breen to reprise his role as Larry instead.
Due to her age, the actress was only allowed to be on set for fifteen minutes at a time, so it's not really surprising they reduced her role here.
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tonyvfd
Catastrophic Captain
Posts: 80
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Post by tonyvfd on Feb 25, 2019 21:20:48 GMT -5
I loved that the show included "Julio Sham" as one of the possibilities for J.S. I vaguely remember this being brought up an quickly shunned as ridiculous on the website I was on, but I am glad it was not shunned in the TV show. The Denouement brothers were fantastic! I thought they were going to show all three children's adventures at the same time on split screen, and I was both excited and terrified. But I thought the way they handled the situation with Snicket's line was very funny. I wish Hal could have been on the show. He was one of my favorite non-main characters, right up there with Phil. I thought what they did to Larry was far too gruesome. I was shocked Justice Strauss made it out of the hotel alive, but happy. I doubt Jerome and Babs made it out, as they decided to compromise and just stand there. I didn't like how Jerome was in the sauna instead of with Justice Strauss in the taxi, but it was kind of funny how Mr. Poe was the author of OLAF instead of Jerome. Dewey dying was heartbreaking, and Olaf's father dying was so sad, too. I think they really did well creating Olaf's backstory, and suddenly you see the madness behind the maniacal villain. I was ecstatic about making Lemony the mysterious taxi driver! I always thought it was him. I loved how he was worked into the story in general. I have a feeling I am going to be very sad when I watch the next episode. I loved all the random people who were at the trial, like the trolley driver! And I liked the song from the first season coming back. Also, speaking of music, my husband loves Count Olaf's theme, and it was super grand on string at the trial! I love the Baudelaire's theme whenever something is actually going well for them. And the bell sounds at the very beginning of the theme song never fail to make me excited about watching the episode. Anyway, I'm not sure how I feel about the kids finally getting to tell their story. Also, I hate how Sunny is left out ALL THE TIME!!! Other than saying her name and occupation, she got to say nothing, and the camera always shows just Violet and Klaus. She is only shown sitting on the other side of Mr. Poe when the kids sit back down, and she doesn't even get to put her foot in the elevator door to stop it from closing. You don't even see her until the elevator opens in the basement. Boo hiss. I think Beatrice threw the dart on accident. I think it was like how the children were surprised and accidentally dropped the harpoon gun and killed Dewey. She was surprised the fire chief came out and threw the dart because she wasn't thinking clearly. I liked the explanation of what happened at the opera that night, even though it was terribly sad. I liked that we finally got answers, even though it doesn't quite line up with what we know about the books, how the parents went to the opera together. But I loved that Beatrice could sing! And real, opera singing!!! If I have to venture a guess, I would guess the song is an aria from La Forza del Destino. I like that they kept the line about Justice Strauss being a horse thief, but I wish she would have said it to Esme like she did in the book. I finally get why the kids left the scene of the crime. No one was going to help them. It was an accident in the sense that she intended to kill Esme, but when she throw the darts she made the decision that somebody was going to die. I wished the show had the children and Olaf discussing that.
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Post by Foxy on Feb 26, 2019 8:33:06 GMT -5
I think he was originally going to be the waiter in the restaurant, but the actor was unavailable, so they got Patrick Breen to reprise his role as Larry instead. Due to her age, the actress was only allowed to be on set for fifteen minutes at a time, so it's not really surprising they reduced her role here. Even though I am bummed Sunny isn't in the show more, I am glad there are rules like this. I read in a book called The Case for Make Believe by Susan Linn that children under the age of three can't distinguish between real and pretend. So sometimes when I watched the show, I worried about how much time she spent on stage with the actors, and how that must have confused her because she probably did not understand the show and the actors weren't real life.
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