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Post by veryferociousdrama on Apr 28, 2019 15:44:27 GMT -5
Theories becometh...
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Post by Foxy on Apr 29, 2019 9:14:48 GMT -5
Personal Notes:
The opening picture shows Olaf’s license plate, “IH8 ORFNS”. First of all, I love the f instead of a ph. Second of all, Count Olaf is an orphan! He is a complex character.
I wish we knew more about the operator. (1)
Count Olaf tried to steal the Snicket fortune? Where did all that money go? (2)
The hook-handed man knows Italian. (4)
“I’m not sure that’s true… I think that a two-headed person is going to be considered pretty freakish no matter where they go.” At least someone is a voice of reason. (4)
Shouldn’t Olaf have already known where the headquarters are? (12)
Klaus shouldn’t have told Olaf in which direction to go. (12)
The déjà vu tent is on fire in the chapter picture. (13)
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THE CARNIVOROUS CARNIVAL
CHARACTERS:
Violet Baudelaire/Beverly (1)
Klaus Baudelaire/Elliot (1)
Sunny Baudelaire/Chabo the Wolf Baby (1): the size of a watermelon (12)
Count Olaf (1): wears cologne (7)
Esmé Squalor (1)
Bald man (1)
Two women with white powder all over their faces (1)
Hook-handed man (1)
Madame Lulu/Olivia (1)
Mr. Poe (m) (1)
Operator (1)
One of Snicket’s enemies (2): possibly a vegetarian
John Merrick (2): man with birth defects
Hugo (3)
Colette (3)
Kevin (3)
seven or eight people at the carnival (4): man with pimples on his face (5), woman standing nearby (5)
Owner of a tea shop (5)
Other customers at said tea shop (5)
Duchess (6)
R or K (6): took photograph of Baudelaires on Damocles Dock
friend of Olivia’s (7): trained lions to smell smoke
greedy night watchman (9)
dessert chef (9)
local shoemaker (9)
blacksmith (9)
chimney sweep (9)
computer technician (9)
woman at the ticket booth (9)
pimpled man’s mother (9)
Daily Punctilio reporter (10): Geraldine Julien?
husband and wife with dyed hair (10)
William Shakespeare (11)
woman who runs the gift caravan (12)
VIOLET’S INVENTION:
rebuilding an engine (9)
KLAUS’S RESEARCH:
finding the headquarters on the map (9)
SUNNY’S BITING/COOKING:
biting ivy off roller coaster carts (9)/adding cinnamon to hot chocolate (4)
THE LIBRARY:
Madame Lulu’s archival library (6)
V.F.D.:
veiled facial disguises (7)
various finery disguises (7)
voice fakery disguise (7)
Valley of Four Drafts (12)
SNICKET SECRETS:
After he has finished his work for the day, he saws holes in his rented canoe and converses with his few surviving friends. (1)
His sister may have been running away with an archuduke – does this make Dewey an archduke? (2)
He looked in the refrigerator of one of his enemies and learned she was possibly a vegetarian. (2)
In a job interview, he once had to hit an olive with a bow and arrow, memorize three pages of poetry, and figure out whether cheese fondue was poisoned or not without tasting it. (3)
He goes out walking at Briny Beach in the morning sometimes. He also goes into a tea shop and sobs loudly. (5)
He stayed in the guest caravan with Jacques many years ago. (5)
He tries to contact his sister, telling her he is heading north and trying to find her. (6)
He works frantically in the homes of other people without their knowledge. (6)
Just last night, he was trouble by a decision involving an eyedropper, a greedy night watchman, and a tray of individual custards, so he can barely type these worfs. The dessert chef found his room before dawn. (9)
Snicket went to the train station the Baudelaires remembered, and he talked to the shoemaker’s son (9)
He saw something on a price tag in a department store which told him he should leave at once, but in different clothing. (9) : Is this an ATWQ reference? He sat in an airport and heard something telling him to leave later that day on a different flight. (9)
REFERENCES (real and made up):
The Daily Punctilio (1)
The Snicket File (1)
The Marvelous Marriage (2)
The Story of Queen Debbie and her Boyfriend, Tony (4)
King Lear (11)
SNICKETISMS:
the one about “in the belly of the beast” (1)
the one about learning more about people when you look through their belongings (2)
the one about job interviews being unpleasant (3)
the one about miracles (3)
the one about déjà vu (5)
the one about grief being a sneaky thing (5)
the one about there being many difficult things in the world to hide, and a secret not being one of them (6)
the one about how what you want or don’t want has little to do with what does or does not happen (6)
the one about people not understanding the difference between words and shapes (8)
the one about Shakespeare’s plays (11)
BAUDELAIRE FAMILY HISTORY:
The Baudelaire parents had promised their children they would one day bring them to see the famous hinterlands sunsets. Klaus read about sunsets, and Violet began building a solar oven.(1)
Klaus read a book about John Merrick, a man with birth defects. (2)
Their mother taught Violet how to draw fake scars on people. (2)
They would wear costumes for their own amusement. (2)
Violet yet again remembers the promise she made to always look after her siblings. (2)
They watched a scary movie when their parents were out for the evening. (6)
Their mother had a toolkit with a wrench Violet always admired (9)
Before Sunny was born, the Baudelaire family went to a vineyard. They had to take a train at a station not far from Paltryville, and Violet and Klaus had gotten lost. Their father said if the children ever lost their parents, they should stay put. (9)
SNICKET DICTIONARY:
Bemoaning their fate: playing dominoes, rather than trying to think of a way out of their predicament (5)
Began to get their bearings: figure out how two people, using only two hands, can eat one ear of corn at the same time (3)
Cower: cringe and duck and hope not to get whipped (11)
Digesting information: thinking about everything that Madame Lulu has told them (8)
Dilemma: problem (3)
Disperse: walk off to purchase souvenirs or leave the carnival (5)
Dressed for the occasion: put on a specific outfit in an attempt to impress them (8)
Eavesdropping: listening in on interesting conversations you are not invited to join (1)
Enormous roller coaster: a series of small carts where people can sit and race up and down steep and frightening hills of tracks, for no discernible reason (1)
Fictional: somebody made it up one day (4)
Humanity must perforce prey upon itself, like monsters of the deep: How sad it is that people end up hurting one another as if they were ferocious sea monsters (11)
In the belly of the beast: inside some terrible place with little chance of escaping safely (1)
In the clear: far enough away from the roller coaster that they could no longer see or hear what was going on (11)
Opportunity will knock: his coworkers might find something better to do with their time, instead of leaping into a pit of hungry lions just to give some people what they wanted (8)
Performed their toilette: did the things necessary to being their day as carnival freaks (4)
Shook their heads vigorously: in order to shake talcum powder out of their hair (7)
Shtick: increase suspense by slowly unfolding a piece of paper printed with the name of someone who was supposed to jump into a pit of lions (10)
Sleep on it: to go to bed thinking about something and reach a conclusion in the morning (9)
Stood resolute: did not become frightened at all (7)
Summarize: tell their story in a way that would convince the operator to let them talk to Mr. Poe (1)
Swamped at work: chasing after innocent children for quite some time (2)
Testily: in her regular voice, forgetting her disguise because she was becoming very frustrated and upset (5)
Vineyard: a sort of farm where people grow grapes used in wine (9)
Understocked: empty except for three books (6)
Until the cows came home: until there was no more wine (2)
SUNNY SPEECH:
Accentuate the positive aspects of working with Count Olaf: make the opportunity sound better than it really was, by emphasizing the good parts and scarcely mentioning the bad (8)
Aklec: Let’s move out. (9)
And bald. (12)
Back. (6)
Beriu?: What about me? (2)
Both! (10)
Chabo!: I know this is humiliating, but at least our disguises are working! (3)
Cheat! (6)
Chelish: I’m too big to fit inside a shoe. (2)
Chesro?: But if she’s a fake, how did she know that one of our parents was alive? (6)
Chitvee: But I can’t help thinking about our parents. (5)
Chow!: Before we’re thrown to the lions! (5)
Déjà vu. (5); We must be able to think of something that can help us. We’ve escaped from bloodthirsty crowds before. (10)
Dubious: (I’m not sure that’s a good reason.) (7)
Dragnet!: But the police think we’re murderers! (1)
Easy. (9)
Edasurc: Maybe someday we can rescue these lions. (9) (Crusade spelled backward)
Eerie. (6)
Ephrai: But we’re in real trouble now. (1)
Esoobac: I don’t remember. (9) (Caboose spelled backward)
Eye! (1)
Flynn: And I never thought I would become a violent person, but I engaged in a sword fight with Dr. Orwell. (7)
Fan belt? (10)
Fraud! (7)
Gabrowha? (2)
Galfuskin: This is all guesswork – let’s go to the fortune-telling tent and see if we can find out anything for sure, and we’d better do it soon before the others get back. (5)
Ghede!: I almost forgot about the archival library! (12)
Ginawn!: All these clothes are too big for me. (2)
Grr: (2)
Harum? (7)
Heebie-jeebies: Let’s get out of here. I’m really getting the creeps. (6)
Ificat: Me too. (5)
Ingredi: Meanwhile, I’ll look through all this food and make sure we have everything we need to prepare meals. (12)
Ivy? (9)
Karneez? (2)
Key? (12)
Kiwoon!: I thought I was going to cry when all those people were calling me ‘freak.’” (4)
Legror?: But what about the lightning? (6)
Lesoint: I’m nearly done. (9)
Merrill: We’d better get out of this trunk. (1)
Mishap (6)
Nuts! (2)
Olaf? (9)
Proffco: I guess so. (7)
Promise? (7)
Radev: Somebody’s going to put a stop to us if we don’t disguise ourselves soon. (2)
Renuf!: I don’t see anything freakish about you either, but even if I did I wouldn’t laugh at you because it wouldn’t be polite. (3)
Right (12)
Sandover: So we’re staying. (2)
Semja! (1)
Switch! (6)
Tent (4)
There! (6)
Tom ka gai! (8)
Trenceth!: You ought to be ashamed of yourself! (11)
Twicho! (2)
Us! (6)
V.F.D.! (12)
Veriz: We’ll need money to make a phone call. (1)
Volu… (5)
What? (7)
Whaque: Or pretending to be surgeons (9)
Whazit? (2)
Winnow?: But where else could the headquarters be? There’s no other marking on the map. (12)
Worf: I don’t think we should stay put. I think we should leave right now. (9)
Wow! (3)
Yerz (6)
Yes. (12)
Yirat: I remember – the famous hinterlands sunset (6)
GEOGRAPHY:
Hinterlands (1)
Rarely Ridden Road (1)
Caligari Carnival (1)
Mulctuary Money Management (m) (1)
Mortmain Mountains (7)
Plath Pass (12)
Richter Range (12)
Silent Springs (12)
Paucity Peak (12)
Valley of Four Drafts (12)
Stricken Stream (12)
FOODOLOGY:
Grilled cheese sandwiches (m) (1)
Wine (2)
Buttermilk (2)
Roast chicken (2)
Corn (3)
Raw carrots (m) (3)
Tagliatelle grande (4)
Hot chocolate w/ cinnamon (4)
Tom ka gai (7)
custards (9)
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Post by Carrie E. Abelabudite on Apr 29, 2019 16:32:16 GMT -5
The opening picture shows Olaf’s license plate, “IH8 ORFNS”. First of all, I love the f instead of a ph. Second of all, Count Olaf is an orphan! Ha! I hadn't even thought of that! It's odd because, as far as I can remember, this is the only reference we ever hear to the possible existence of a Snicket fortune. I'm not sure what we're meant to conclude from that - clearly Olaf wasn't successful in his attempt to get it, or if he was he didn't share the profits with Madame Lulu. I think the Netflix show retcons this well, by saying he had been blindfolded as he was taken to the headquarters, so even though he had been there before, he wouldn't have known exactly where it was. I love how similar the picture is to the Chapter Five illustration(s). General Notes
This was actually my least favourite book the first time I read the series, but I'm not sure why. I don't even remember specifically what I disliked about it - part of it, I think, was that I liked TSS so much more that it sort of paled in comparison. I think I also didn't like how prevalent Olaf was, or that the Baudelaires were in disguise the whole time, elements that now to me seem like an interesting subversion of previous plot points, and I found the getting-thrown-to-the-lions story line too scary. Now, I'd say that, like THH, it does sort of fall into an awkward middle ground between the more structured early books and the more VFD-heavy later ones, but, also like THH, it's the best in the series so far. I don't like either of the covers that much - I think the POV in the HarperCollins one is sort of weird, and I don't like how old Madame Lulu looks on the Egmont cover. I guess I would say I prefer the overall composition and colours of the Egmont edition, but I prefer the scene the HarperCollins one depicts. The dedication makes me laugh, but I don't have anything else in particular to say about it. The frontispiece illustration marks Helquist's first drawing of the 'correct' VFD insignia, although a first-time reader would only recognise it if they had read TUA. Chapter One
The mention of the rented canoe makes me think of the boat Lemony borrowed from the student to escape in TEE, although that was actually a speedboat. Maybe he's made a similar deal with someone else here, although he wasn't actually in captivity last we saw of him when he was writing THH. I guess it's possible he almost got captured, but was able to escape in the canoe. It also reminds me of Monty's canoe in TRR - maybe it's even the same one. I was about to ask why sawing holes in a canoe would mean it could not be found but then I realised that this would probably make it sink. Maybe Lemony did a similar thing with the speedboat, which was why he needed to borrow another mode of transportation - no wonder the student in TEE didn't want to lend it to him. 'I often like to spend the evening in conversation with my few surviving friends.' (p1) This is in contrast with other depictions of Lemony throughout the series, where he seems to be on the run and fairly solitary. Maybe he's writing this passage as part of one of the 'later' editions of the book, a few years after the events, when VFD has managed to reorganised to a degree. 'Sometimes we discuss the people who are trying to destroy us, and if there is any hope of escaping from them.' (p1) On a reread, this is obviously a reference to the different sides of the schism, but on a first read, it's not that intuitive that this ties in with 'the secret of VFD'. Love the 'belly of the beast' analysis. 'Unless you are a small, portable object,' (p3) This probably, at the time of writing, wasn't intended to refer to any object in particular, but it mirrors the way the sugar bowl is written about later on. 'But the Baudelaires could not lean back, and their bodies were aching from squishing up against one another for several hours.' (p3) How far is the Hinterlands from Heimlich Hospital, and how far are they from the city? More on this later. 'The sunlight coming in through the faded to evening,' (p5) What time did they leave the hospital? When I was reading THH, I was under the impression it was evening, but looking back now I'm not sure there's actually any evidence for this. Maybe it was, say, around five pm when they left the hospital, and around eight now. Also it's worth bearing in mind that Violet at least has not had anything to eat or drink since dinner the previous night, where she just ate fruit. Sunny and Klaus haven't been described as eating or drinking anything on this particular day, but I think we'll have to assume they actually did. Here, Count Olaf's troupe seem like kids on a long family road-trip, while Olaf and Esme are like the parents. 'The hinterlands were a vast and empty place very far from the outskirts of the city, without even a small village for hundreds of miles.' (p7) I'm not sure this holds up. Why would there even be a carnival there if it were so remote? The Snicket file is constantly referred to as the last piece of evidence that could incriminate Olaf and Esme, but we see examples of other evidence over the course of the next few books. The white-faced women seem particularly villainous here, enjoying all of Olaf's schemes. There's a real turnaround between here and the next book. '"those children seem to have all the luck in the world," Count Olaf said, "so they're all probably alive and well,"' (p10) A very different perspective to what we've seen so far, though Olaf is broadly right (at least about them surviving). '"I myself hope it's Violet [who survived]," Olaf said. "She's the prettiest."' (p10) Blech. I don't know why he'd say this with Esme around, though her jealousy hasn't been established yet. Since Violet is described as looking very similar to Beatrice, maybe Olaf is imagining his revenge will be even more potent if she's the one he can slowly destroy. This might also have motivated his marriage plot. '"Stick with me," Olaf said, "and you'll learn lots of new things."' (p11) Wow, that's, like, the worst pick-up line ever. 'The famous hinterlands sunset was just ending, and everything the children saw was bathed in dark blue, as if Count Olaf had driven them into the depths of the ocean.' (p15) This must be one of the most atmospheric books in the series. The Baudelaires are giving up on Poe here, though they haven't completely yet. 'Mr Poe was not a wicked person, but he had mistakenly placed them in the company of so much wickedness that he had been almost as wicked as an actual wicked person' (p18) just about sums it up, I think. The Baudelaires choosing to phone him seems symbolic; it seems like it's the last time they choose to trust a conventional authority figure. '"Do you have any money, Violet?"' (p19) Isn't Violet still in a hospital gown at this point? Where would she have got money? Presumably if she'd ever had any, Olaf would have taken it when he snatched her - and indeed, she can't ever have had any, since none of the Baudelaires did when they were at the Last Chance General Store. Come on Klaus, use your brain. 'all they could hear was the empty and distant sound of a telephone line.' (p22) Presumably, this is when the telephone poles are being chopped down on Rarely Ridden Road. I've seen it suggested that this can't be that since they can still hear a dial tone, but I think 'the distant sound of a telephone line' is just meant to be a poetic way of saying they couldn't hear anything. Certainly, I think Handler meant this to tie in with the poles being chopped down, even if he's made a mistake here.
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Post by Foxy on Apr 30, 2019 9:15:11 GMT -5
It's odd because, as far as I can remember, this is the only reference we ever hear to the possible existence of a Snicket fortune. I'm not sure what we're meant to conclude from that - clearly Olaf wasn't successful in his attempt to get it, or if he was he didn't share the profits with Madame Lulu. This leads me to believe Count Olaf is pretty much the least successful villain ever. So I looked up the Egmont cover, and a random picture of Count Olaf came up, and I learned there are pictures of Count Olaf all over the complete wreck box set which I never knew about! And how big is the gas tank in Count Olaf's car? Ha! So true. Is bad business plan to have carnival in hinterlands, please.
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Post by Carrie E. Abelabudite on Apr 30, 2019 17:15:44 GMT -5
Is bad business plan to have carnival in hinterlands, please. Yeah, I noticed that line, but it's weird how many people are able to get to the carnival at short notice when they find out the lions will be there. That makes it sound like the hinterlands are not quite as remote as how they are described earlier. Chapter Two
It seems particularly unlikely that Sunny, only using Olaf's fake beard, would be able to make herself look as wolf-like as she does in the chapter illustration. '"That's the new in beverage."' (p26) This makes it sound like only one beverage can be in at a time. If Esme's only drinking buttermilk, I'd imagine she'd actually be very thirsty - I don't think it would be that refreshing after a while. It's interesting that the Baudelaires immediately pick up on Madame Lulu's accent as being similar to the one Olaf used with his Gunther disguise. If, reading this for the first time, you'd already read TUA, you'd immediately realise that it must be a Voice Fakery Disguise. Since I hadn't when I first read the book, I think I just thought that Olaf probably based his Gunther accent off of Lulu, who genuinely talked like that. '"'Prevail' means 'win'," Olaf said,' (p27) Olaf's actually very similar to Klaus in terms of liking to tell people what words mean, or saying he knows what words mean when someone tries to define them to him. '"Madame Lulu remembers, please, when you would visit only for the pleasure of my company, my Olaf." "There isn't time for that tonight," Olaf replied quickly.' (p29) Considering TUA implies that Olaf and Esme's relationship has been going on for quite a few years, it sounds like he has habitually been cheating on her with Lulu. It's no surprise, really, that Esme gets so jealous, especially when Olaf and Lulu aren't very subtle about it. 'You might examine some letters your sister received recently, for instance, and learn that she was planning on running away with an archduke.' (p36) Not sure if this is just a random example or if something similar has happened to Lemony. '"here's that makes me look like a judge."' (p38) I wonder if Handler had planned for 'corrupt judges' as part of a later plot line. It seems like he might have.
'"You'd think someone would put a stop to [using the House of Freaks as a form of entertainment]," Violet said, "but you'd think somebody would put a stop to count Olaf, too, and nobody does."' (p40) Not sure what to say about this, but it feels important to highlight.
'"Mother taught me how to draw fake scars one myself when she appeared in that play about the murderer."' (p42) Confirmation, in case we needed it, that the Baudelaire parents were in VFD (although it only works as such to someone who as read TUA). Also, this is the first book where Olaf doesn't have a disguise, and all three Baudelaires do.
Klaus says he can get around without his glasses, he just can't read. That is definitely not consistent with TMM.
'She was wearing [...] a turban that looked very much like the one Count Olaf had worn back at Prufrock Preparatory School.' (p49) Another clue to the fact Madame Lulu is disguised, though again, it really only works if you've read TUA, though you might be suspicious even if not.
Chapter Three
'"It seems to me that you look very familiar," [Olaf] said [to the Baudelaires]."' (p33) Is it at all possible Olaf recognises them? He should realise they're wearing items from the VFD disguise kit at least, but then so should Olivia and she doesn't seem to just yet.
Huh. I really thought Klaus' disguised name was 'Eliot', as in T.S. Eliot, but there are actually two 'l's. Is there another author this is referencing?
'"I was just noticing your shirt," Esmé said. "It's very in."' (p54) Esme too should recognise this outfit, but it doesn't seem like she does.
At least Violet and Klaus get some food, considering it's probably been about a day since they've eaten anything. I hope someone also offered them water.
'"It's the middle of the night."' (p62) Really? It seemed like it was only about eight or nine by the time the Baudelaires and Olaf arrived at the carnival, and now it probably can't be more than a couple of hours later. Maybe Hugo is just confused about what time it is.
Olivia is very cruel to the freaks. It goes beyond her wavering I-don't-know-who-to-help ideology - there's no reason for her to behave like this.
You'd think Colette would be able to get non-freak related work at the carnival, but I guess everybody really thinks of her as one.
'"It's an interesting dilemma," Hugo said, using a fancy word for "problem" that the Baudelaires had learned from a law book in Justice Strauss's library.' (p69) Did they learn this word there? I don't remember that.
'some people say that sneaking out of a hotel is a miracle, particularly if the lobby is swarming with policemen,' (p71) Even if this is happening to Lemony, he seems relatively better off than he has been in the past couple of books.
'The three children had slept very little' (p73) - well, at least they got some sleep. I'm surprised they didn't sleep better even with he knowledge that one of their parents might be alive - they must be very tired by now.
'It happened to me once in a cafeteria, when it turned out there was a small camera hidden in the lunch I received.' (p73-4) Interesting - clearly VFD members like to spy on each other by planting devices in food-related objects.
'it was quite some time before [the Baudelaires] learned that what the hook-handed man said turned out to be something different from what they thought' (p74) If not earlier, Handler must have decided on the resolution for the survivor-of-the-fire plot by now.
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Post by Foxy on May 1, 2019 8:27:46 GMT -5
'"'Prevail' means 'win'," Olaf said,' (p27) Olaf's actually very similar to Klaus in terms of liking to tell people what words mean, or saying he knows what words mean when someone tries to define them to him. Only when Count Olaf says he knows what a word means, he seems to be lying, which is humorous. Could Count Olaf have been an archduke before he was a count? Were all the Denouement brothers archdukes?
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Post by Carrie E. Abelabudite on May 1, 2019 14:25:46 GMT -5
Could Count Olaf have been an archduke before he was a count? Were all the Denouement brothers archdukes? I always find this line odd because it seems to foreshadow Kit's relationship with Olaf in some ways, but I don't think you could be both a count and an archduke. I guess it's possible that the Denouement brothers were archdukes. Chapter Four
It doesn't look like any of the freaks get breakfast. I hope the Baudelaires got some water at least - I'm really becoming worried about their nutritional habits. How big is the tagliatelle grande? If it's big enough to properly be used as a whip, you'd think Fernald couldn't hold it in just one hook without it trailing on the ground. Poor Violet and Klaus, having to eat an ear of corn that had been in someone's pocket. If none of the freaks get paid, where does Hugo get all his ingredients? '"Caligari Carnival hasn't been very popular lately, but there's nowhere else for a freak to go."' (p88) This makes it sound like Caligari Carnival was at one point more popular than it is now, which is sort of different to what Olivia suggests earlier. Maybe there used to be more of a VFD influence, which made it more popular among members - maybe 'Madame Lulu' used to be a role played by different people at different times, like what we see in the Netflix show, even though Olivia has now been 'Madame Lulu' for quite a few years, during which time the popularity of the carnival has decreased. Here we have Sunny's first recipe - this marks a new era for her character. The Story of Queen Debbie and her Boyfriend, Tony is absolutely brilliant, even if it doesn't serve much of a purpose. Also, is Debbie straight-up trying to murder Tony? He's annoying, but I'm not sure he deserves to be devoured by lions. The actual expression the moral of the Queen Debbie story is based on is 'never look a gift horse in the mouth', but I find it sort of confusing. I know it's supposed to be a reference to the Trojan horse, but, in that scenario, wouldn't it have been better if they had looked the gift horse in the mouth? It seems like the phrase is saying you should just take things at face value, whereas the moral of the fall of Troy is more that you shouldn't do that. Even within the bounds of TCC, it would have been better if Olivia had thought more about what Olaf was trying to achieve with the lions. How did Olaf and Olivia even get the lions into the trailer? They must have been trained in how to handle them during their youth in VFD. Chapter Five
The déjà vu chapter opening is very clever. How could Sunny remember the stubborn mule speech? I don't think she'd have been able to hear it the first time, since she was locked in the birdcage and Olaf was on the ground, talking to Violet and Klaus. 'when I am cold and duck into a teashop where the owner is expecting me, I have only to reach for the sugar bowl before my grief returns,' (p114) Firstly, it's interesting that the teashop owner is expecting Lemony. Presumably he's also a VFD member and Lemony has some info to convey to him, or vice versa. Also, this provides some not-very-illuminating backstory for the sugar bowl. Even just going off what we know from THH, it's not a stretch to assume that Lemony would feel guilty about having stolen the sugar bowl, and might associate it with his and Beatrice's breakup, even if it's not directly linked. '"we've been hiding and disguising ourselves for so long."' (p115) It's only been a few days! Violet's theory about hindered communication makes sense. If Beatrice did survive the fire and was the one hidden in the snowman, it seems that Gustav Sebald was trying to arrange a meet-up through Monnty, which would have fallen through when Monty got murdered. It's possible, in this case, that there would have been other unsuccessful attempts to reunite Beatrice and her children, but obviously none of them worked, and, if she died shortly after the Masked Ball, she would have been dead for a while by now - probably since around TWW. 'Anyone wandering through the blackened and desolate hinterlands would scarcely be able to tell that there had been any tents at all.' (p117) Now that Olaf's arson has become something we actually see him do 'onscreen', this should be a hint to the fate of Caligari Carnival. On the other hand, it's possible that on a first read this could just be interpreted as a Lemony-is-researching-a-long-time-later comment. The 'Olaf's-tattoo-is-actually-the-VFD-insignia' reveal isn't exactly a huge bombshell, yet, on a first read at least, it does sort of feel like one. Particularly if you hadn't read TUA, this is now direct confirmation that Olaf is involved in VFD - or was at one time. It's also possible to guess Jacques' 'job'.
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Post by Uncle Algernon on May 1, 2019 14:51:54 GMT -5
Could Count Olaf have been an archduke before he was a count? Were all the Denouement brothers archdukes? I always find this line odd because it seems to foreshadow Kit's relationship with Olaf in some ways, but I don't think you could be both a count and an archduke. I guess it's possible that the Denouement brothers were archdukes. - It seems to me most likely that the passage does indeed refer to Olaf, that he was never an archduke, but that he first seduced Kit while disguised as an archduke. Why should we assume his litany of bizarre aliases only started with Stephano? Alternatively, the incident may refer to some other incident where Kit was in love with some offscreen archduke, and we are meant to infer that she has a thing for aristocrats in general. Not my preferred interpretation, but it's a thought.
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Post by Dante on May 1, 2019 15:07:45 GMT -5
The actual expression the moral of the Queen Debbie story is based on is 'never look a gift horse in the mouth', but I find it sort of confusing. I know it's supposed to be a reference to the Trojan horse, but, in that scenario, wouldn't it have been better if they had looked the gift horse in the mouth? It seems like the phrase is saying you should just take things at face value, whereas the moral of the fall of Troy is more that you shouldn't do that. Even within the bounds of TCC, it would have been better if Olivia had thought more about what Olaf was trying to achieve with the lions. The proverb actually has nothing to do with the Trojan horse; rather, it refers to the practice of judging a horse's health based on inspecting the state of its teeth. If somebody gives you a horse, it would be rude to perform such a check as it would imply you distrust the giver. It's a bit like if you were given a gift and immediately began looking it over for a price tag. Perhaps they're counting the final day of TVV as well, in which they did do a certain amount of hiding; and while Violet didn't actually disguise herself in THH, she was nonetheless disguised. Extending the sense of the expression back two books (and over a year in publishing time) probably explains why it's otherwise easy to skim over this statement. Edit: I think people are retrospectively putting rather too important a construction on the archduke business; it's just a throwaway joke, not something he states literally happened to his actual sister.
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Post by Foxy on May 2, 2019 8:41:11 GMT -5
Here we have Sunny's first recipe - this marks a new era for her character. It really does! All the biting was great, but this is where she starts to grow up, even though she's too young to grow up yet. I looked up archdukes and counts, and an archduke has to descend from a Habsburg emperor. A count is one of five English nobilities.
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takatoguil
Catastrophic Captain
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Post by takatoguil on May 2, 2019 10:06:22 GMT -5
I had assumed that the archduke thing was a reference to the scandal about Franz Ferdinand's courtship of Sophie, Duchess of Hohenberg, but apparently it was an archduchess Sophie was lady-in-waiting for who found a locket (not a letter) confirming the couple, not any of Sophie's siblings. So I have nothing except "Yeah, that's a throwaway." Olaf cannot possibly be both archduke and count.
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Post by Hermes on May 2, 2019 10:59:38 GMT -5
It's true that 'archduke' is a title used only by the Habsburg family. But 'count' is not an English rank - the five ranks of the British nobility are duke, marquess (sic: 'marquess' is the male title; his wife is a marchioness), earl, viscount and baron. 'Earl' corresponds to continental 'count'; the wife of an earl, confusingly, is a countess. Olaf's title is presumably continental in origin, perhaps from Norway.
An archduke is grander than a count, so it's unlikely that an archduke would become a count. I think the idea that Olaf was disguised as an archduke is quite likely - perhaps in origin legitimately, using a VFD Archduke Disguise.
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Post by Carrie E. Abelabudite on May 2, 2019 17:56:53 GMT -5
The proverb actually has nothing to do with the Trojan horse; rather, it refers to the practice of judging a horse's health based on inspecting the state of its teeth. If somebody gives you a horse, it would be rude to perform such a check as it would imply you distrust the giver. It's a bit like if you were given a gift and immediately began looking it over for a price tag. Oh, that makes more sense, although I still don't entirely get what parallel Handler is trying to draw between The Story of Queen Debbie and Her Boyfriend, Tony and TCC. Yeah, it could just be read as a random example, but the line always stands out to me since this is the first main-series book where Lemony mentions having a sister. Chapter Six
'My dear sister, if you are reading this, I am still alive, and heading north to try and find you.' (p124) As well as being the first reference to Kit outside of TUA, I think this line marks an interesting turning point. From here on, it becomes obvious that Lemony is trying to communicate not only with the general public but also VFD members (even if, at this stage, we don't have a clear idea of what that entails) and that he has his own agenda outside of researching the Baudelaire case. This comment also creates timeline problems since, if Lemony is writing a few years after the events, Kit should be dead. If you want to argue that Lemony wrote the whole series years later, you can easily say he just doesn't know what happened to her yet, but I think it's more exciting to imagine Lemony writing certain passages at least more or less as the events happen. Since Kit's reading list at Prufrock contained the ASOUE books, it seems like she would have been on the lookout for their publication, and if Lemony knew that, this wouldn't actually be a bad way of communicating with her. Oh, this comment also implies that the Mortmain Mountains and the hinterlands are north of the city, since we know that's where Lemony goes next, though there's lots of inconsistency in terms of directions - this book is very confusing about where the mountains are in relation to the hinterlands. Sunny realising that if Lulu is fake, her parents must not be alive, is a very poignant moment. 'below the photograph was a sentence Klaus had read so many times' (p135) As has been brought up before, this is inconsistent with what is written inn THH. If the writing is below the photo, that makes it sound like it's a caption, and couldn't refer to other people. However, the way the photo and the writing are described in relation to each other is sort of confusing in THH. The way it's written, it's stated that the photo is 'below' the writing, so if Handler had been in a hurry and just wanted to quickly check where he had placed the photo in relation to the sentence in the previous book, he might just have spotted the word 'below' and written this section accordingly. Who took the photo of the Baudelaires at Damocles Dock? I want to say it was Lemony, but if he was the cab driver, I'm not sure this works. Now that TUA has forced us to think about who is behind the camera, it might be worth focusing that question on the photo of the Baudelaire parents, Lemony, and Jacques, as well. I think the most likely contender for that one would have been Kit. Klaus' question echoes the way VFD members 'watched' Lemony and his siblings as children. The initial that could be an R or a K seems similar to the Duchess of Winnipeg's crest in TUA. So, did she send this photo to Olivia? Why does she think it would be helpful to her? I assume she can't know Olivia is telling Olaf of the Bauds' whereabouts. And does that mean R took the photo? If she didn't, who else did? '"Every time we heard a noise we thought vampires were breaking into the house to take us away," "Maybe somebody was breaking into the house to take us away,"' (p141) Yes, this does seem likely - from the sounds of it, there were people trying to recruit the Baudelaires. Since Beatrice and Bertrand evidently didn't want their children to be members, at least not at such a young age, one wonders who would have been wiling to go against their wishes like this. 'something could happen that would lead you to become the sort of author who works frantically in the homes of other people, often without their knowledge.' (p144) Is that what Lemony is doing at the time of writing? 'A series of unfortunate events can happen to anyone,' (p145) Another title drop. Chapter Seven'It is hard for decent people to stay angry at someone who has burst into tears, which is why it is often a good idea to burst into tears if a decent person is yelling at you.' (p150) This paints Olivia as quite manipulative. 'She reached up to her neck and yanked on the cord that held the eye around her neck.' (p151) It seems like Olivia associates her treachery and deceit with VFD - it's possible she resents the organisation for what she has become. I actually once knew someone whose name was Lulu, short for Olivia. I seem to have misremembered how Olivia supplement her library in the TCC Snicket Believe It Or Not thread. I thought she just got information by picking up pieces of paper that were blowing around, but here she says most of it comes from libraries, which makes a lot more sense. 'It felt as if it had been one hundred years since someone had called the Baudelaires by their proper names,' (p154) They've only been at the carnival for a day!! Okay, so the day before they went there, Klaus and Sunny were also disguising themselves, and Olaf was disguising Violet, but it's only been around forty-eight hours since they were working for Hal, who would have called them by their proper names. Olivia seems to expect that the Baudelaires have already read the Snicket file, despite having absolutely no reason to think this. If they knew its contents, why would they try to sneak into her tent to find out if there was a survivor of the fire? '"Every time I see a piece of paper blow by, I chase after it to see if it's one of the pages [of the Snicket file]."' (p155) So, she does use this fantastically improbable method to get info, even if it isn't the main source for her library. '"Somewhere in the Mortmain Mountains is one of the last surviving headquarters of V.F.D.'" (p155) A few things are odd about this. One, Olivia literally has a map with the VFD HQ marked on it. How would she not know where it was? Also, it's strange she refers to the Valley of Four Drafts as one of the last remaining headquarters. This definitely seems to reflect changed plans, since from TSS on, there's only one headquarters, although there are other Safe Places elsewhere. Since multiple HQs are also mentioned in the VFD meeting transcript in TUA, I guess it makes sense to say the other ones are smaller and regional, and those are what Olivia is talking about here. '"There are people using these disguises all over the world, trying to bring Count Olaf to justice."' (p157) Before this reread, I was wondering if you could justify Olivia's actions to a degree by suggesting she really didn't know the full extent of Olaf's treachery, but this makes it seem like she does. '"What is V.F.D.? Sometimes it seems like they're good people, and sometimes it seems like they're bad people." "It's not as simple as all that," Olivia said sadly."' (p157) As much as the development of VFD is inconsistent between books, I do think it was intentional on Handler's part to make it seem all-good (his description of it in THH) or all-bad (the way it's written about in TEE) up to this point. TUA is slightly more complex, but even there, I imagine it would be confusing to someone who hadn't read the whole series, and it sort of implies that Olaf is the only villain. Here, we get a definite sense of two warring factions. VFD isn't good or bad - it's more complicated. This will be further developed in the coming books. '"They say that long ago it was simple and quiet, but that might be a legend. There was a schism in V.F.D. - a great big fight between many of the members - and since then it's been hard for me to know what to do.'" (p158) This speech has contradictory evidence about the schism. The world being simple and quiet seeming like a legend to Olivia fits in with the idea of the schism having happened when she was a child. However, the idea that it's been hard for her to know what to do ever since makes it seem more recent. I think it makes the most sense to say that the first sentence refers to The Schism, while Olivia has had a hard time figuring out what to do since a more recent sub-schism, the one Olaf caused that is mentioned in TUA. Through Olivia, we see how the villains need a system to operate. Olaf wouldn't be able to get away with his crimes if the authorities we've already seen weren't so incompetent, but here it becomes apparent that he also relies on people to help him even when they should and do know better. Is 'Flynn' a reference to something? '"Everybody thinks they have a good reason."' (p159) Hmm, maybe so, but I don't think the Baudelaires' wrongdoings can be compared with Olivia's here - or the examples she brings up in this speech - since they were acting in self-defence. Of course, she (or Handler) could just be saying that it's a slippery slope from the Baudelaires' actions so far into villainy, as we'll see over the coming books. It seems like Olivia has been living as 'Madame Lulu' for a long time.
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Post by Dante on May 3, 2019 3:33:48 GMT -5
Who took the photo of the Baudelaires at Damocles Dock? I want to say it was Lemony, but if he was the cab driver, I'm not sure this works. Now that TUA has forced us to think about who is behind the camera, it might be worth focusing that question on the photo of the Baudelaire parents, Lemony, and Jacques, as well. I think the most likely contender for that one would have been Kit. A common way of interpreting ASoUE while it was ongoing involved every character having a unique talent or interest, in the way the Baudelaires and Quagmires do; Kit's was posited as being photography. I wonder if Handler simply hadn't decided; or if it was a definite mystery to be solved. Errol Flynn was an actor apparently renowned for "swashbuckler" film roles; Sunny makes the allusion while recollecting her swordfight with Dr. Orwell.
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Post by Foxy on May 3, 2019 7:03:46 GMT -5
But 'count' is not an English rank - the five ranks of the British nobility are duke, marquess (sic: 'marquess' is the male title; his wife is a marchioness), earl, viscount and baron. 'Earl' corresponds to continental 'count'; the wife of an earl, confusingly, is a countess. Olaf's title is presumably continental in origin, perhaps from Norway. You're right, I misread the paragraph I was reading. They had "count" in parentheses after "earl," and I thought that meant they were interchangeable. Is a viscount like a count? 'something could happen that would lead you to become the sort of author who works frantically in the homes of other people, often without their knowledge.' (p144) Is that what Lemony is doing at the time of writing? Maybe Snicket is sort of more of a criminal that we know? Thinking up to the beginning of TGG, Snicket says the children shouldn't have been so passive and should have grabbed some of the scraps of paper blowing around them as they traveled the river back through the hinterlands, maybe this method isn't too improbable.
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