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Post by Foxy on Jul 5, 2019 19:19:46 GMT -5
he mentions a tape-measure in the shape of a bat, and then later says it was given him by a friend. I always thought this was a batman allusion! Beatrice makes way more sense.
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Post by Christmas Chief on Jul 6, 2019 18:26:00 GMT -5
Notes on Chapter 10:
Chapter 10
The button system at Black Cat Coffee is designed, it seems, for anyone to access. It’s surprising that there is no mystery or complication to opening the attic.
Ellington didn’t arrive at the attic before Lemony did. I wonder why? She wants the Beast desperately and knew where it would arrive in the morning.
Qwerty: “I see you’re still carrying the same burden I saw you with this morning.” The word “same” is redundant in this sentence; it emphasizes Qwerty’s wide-reaching knowledge about Lemony’s investigation.
“Even though he had curious hair and a blank expression, I felt more comfortable with my sub-librarian than I did with my chaperone.” The blank expression I understand to be a function of Qwerty’s role as the neutral observer. But is there something significant about his hair and dress? It’s referenced often throughout ?1. I thought it might be a hint that he is not normally a librarian, but we already knew that: he told Lemony he was only a substitute librarian.
Lemony opens An Analysis of Brown, Black, and Beige - the first direct reference to Duke Ellington, and an ironic hiding place given Ellington’s admiration of the musician.
“‘You’re already ranked last,’ I said, and regretted it at once. I had not been raised by people who raised their hands to me, so I had not yet learned that with some people if you say the wrong thing at the wrong time, you will be hit. Theodora’s eyes widened with shock at what I had said to her. ‘Not sensible!’ she shouted. ‘Not proper!’ And with a growl that sounded like something I would have expected from a legendary beast, she raised her gloved palm up in the air.” Okay, this confirms that Theodora knew she was ranked last, and is also very sensitive about it.
“The right question was ‘When had I heard this person’s voice before?’ but that question didn’t occur to me, not even when I picked up the receiver and heard the terrible things that were said.” So the right question is “right” in an objective sense. That is, given all knowledge about future events, there was a (single?) proper question to ask in this scenario and that was “When had I heard this person’s voice before?”. This is as opposed to a subjectively “right” question, which could have been asked given Lemony’s knowledge at the time but wasn’t because some oversight or character flaw.
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Post by Foxy on Jul 7, 2019 10:23:53 GMT -5
“Even though he had curious hair and a blank expression, I felt more comfortable with my sub-librarian than I did with my chaperone.” The blank expression I understand to be a function of Qwerty’s role as the neutral observer. But is there something significant about his hair and dress? It’s referenced often throughout ?1. I thought it might be a hint that he is not normally a librarian, but we already knew that: he told Lemony he was only a substitute librarian. Now that you bring up the blank expression, his role as observer reminds me of Frank and Ernest. They always had unfathomable expressions when they observed the Baudelaires. As far as his dress, I think of Qwerty being like a motorcycle-riding librarian. You know, not the typical straight-laced librarian one might imagine.
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Post by Dante on Jul 8, 2019 5:31:15 GMT -5
“There were no books in the room as far as I could see. I should have known better.” Known better than to expect there would be books? Known better than to trust Ellington? Known better than to trust someone who hadn't brought a book with them, presumably. It's increasingly easy to make the case, over the course of the series, that Lemony has a certain bias when it comes to Ellington; but at this point, her investigation is extremely ambitious and independent for her age. Meanwhile, at this point in the narrative Moxie has yet to leave her house; and Pip and Squeak are only readers and taxi-drivers, not researchers. “Your predecessor, the young man who worked under me before you, he never spoke to me this way.” (p. 11) We don’t get much characterisation in the series for Bertrand, and what we do get here is ambiguous. Was Bertrand a flatterer? Did he know when to keep quiet? Was he happier putting his head down and obeying orders? Or is Theodora exaggerating his qualities? While I was rereading and doing my commonplace book, I completely forgot Bertrand was Lemony's predecessor. Maybe he was just overly polite? If he was assigned to STM, does that mean he did poorly in school? Or was there something bigger going on? We know that Lemony was able to choose his chaperone from fifty-two options. Thinking about it like that, perhaps Bertrand took pity on the person who was ranked last. ...I wonder how the system works, and if there is any competition for places. Nothing good; revenge on Stain'd-by-the-Sea, presumably. Oh, I agree; how Prosper turned out is a pleasant surprise. But I like mysteries and think it's a shame that there was a missed opportunity for a clever red herring here. Do you think it’s a coincidence that someone is always on the phone when Lemony wants to use it? Do we find out later if this was manipulated? I don't think it can be a deliberate plot, except in the sense of it being a plot device by Handler to keep Snicket from just telephoning the people he needs. Qwerty is miles ahead of Snicket on every case, and I have absolutely no idea how. I can only presume that he spends the entire time while the library is closed, and some of it while it's open, in a tall building with a telescope. (Which is part of the reason why I think Mr. Mallahan would have been another good red herring.) I don't remember my first response, but on rereading, she certainly seems too good to be true - especially with a surname like "Feint". All I recall is that he was good enough to make the cheerleading team. Difficult to say; whichever you can make the case for having to hang around the Sallis mansion the longest - which might be Hangfire. It's a well, in a basement, with a pump to bring the water up like a tap rather than having to lower a bucket a long way down on a rope and then pull it back up. Sally Murphy should know about V.F.D., as part of her cover story, but it's possible that Hangfire held back on the details there as well. I can only presume that her family is in such danger that, even after an attempt to murder her, she simply can't risk giving anything away. (Although with that said, I still think there's evidence that the attempted murder was itself a kind of feint - but Sally wouldn't necessarily know that.) I want to say that it's suggested in a later book that, knowing now how dangerous Hangfire is, he doesn't want to put others in the firing line. By the way, I've found a bit of evidence that B is mentioned in this book, despite not being the acquaintance L was going to meet: he mentions a tape-measure in the shape of a bat, and then later says it was given him by a friend. What's the page reference for the latter line? Ellington didn’t arrive at the attic before Lemony did. I wonder why? She wants the Beast desperately and knew where it would arrive in the morning. This definitely feels like a legitimate instance of the plot not holding together as well as it should; either Ellington or Hangfire absolutely should have gotten there first, and they had plenty of time. I suppose the implication is that Qwerty's hairstyle and general fashion sense marks him out as either eccentric or a bit of a roughneck. This could arguably be part of his disguise and not simply a personal affectation. Curiously, Seth's illustrations of Qwerty retain the same overall character tone of looking broadly delinquent or rebellious, but totally changes the details. Jake's hair is also very different, come to that. Still, it's nice that we get so many illustrations, and all text-relevant.
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Post by Christmas Chief on Jul 8, 2019 12:52:30 GMT -5
“There were no books in the room as far as I could see. I should have known better.” Known better than to expect there would be books? Known better than to trust Ellington? Known better than to trust someone who hadn't brought a book with them, presumably. Very good! If this is a test case for Lemony and Theodora, perhaps V.F.D. also sent Qwerty information not available to the detectives. Qwerty could have used that information, plus the books available in his library, to draw his own conclusions. The telescope idea is not bad. I suppose what I meant to ask is whether basement wells are real, or whether they were invented for the story. The way Lemony uses the term makes it sound like he's seen one before. What's the page reference for the latter line? I don't have my physical copy right now, but it's near the end of Chapter 8: "You wouldn't be in this mess, or this mystery, or this messy mystery, or this mysterious mess. You'd be deep in a hole in the city with a measuring tape your friend gave you, doing something else you'd promised to do instead." This definitely feels like a legitimate instance of the plot not holding together as well as it should; either Ellington or Hangfire absolutely should have gotten there first, and they had plenty of time. Perhaps they assumed it would be safer there, as Lemony assumed the statue would be safer in the library. Nonetheless, Black Cat Coffee's attic is a curiously easy place to access, as I mentioned before, and Ellington had given Lemony a strong hint about where the package would arrive. Then again, Lemony gave Hangfire a strong hint as to where the re-hidden statue would be. Chapter 11“‘I’m frightened.’ ‘Thank goodness you found a telephone,’ I said.” Amusing use of sarcasm, though we only know for sure it’s sarcasm once we know Lemony knows he’s being duped. “‘The Bombinating Beast?’ I said, just so I could see Prosper Lost take an interest in an even closer cushion.” Can we take this to mean Lemony trusts Prosper at this point? He’s confident enough to encourage Prosper’s eavesdropping, at least. “‘Do you have it, Lemony?’ I liked it better when Ellington called me Mr. Snicket.” Most of the characters in ASOUE call Lemony Mr. Snicket, correct? “‘It was certainly nice of him to let you pack your things before he dragged you away,’ I said. ‘Even your record player was gone.’” Does Hangfire know at this point that Lemony knows? “I thought of some of the secret passageways underneath certain buildings back in the city ….” Perhaps the reason Lemony is reminded of the passageways is because they’re often used after fires have devastated the buildings they were built in. I can’t help but see a connection between this abandoned square, filled with rubble, and the burnt Baudelaire mansion. Lemony returns to the Lost Arms and discovers Hangfire has been there. “‘You did what?’ I asked [Prosper Lost]. ‘Sent him up to your room, so he might have a word with Ms. Markson,’ Prosper Lost said, with the tiniest of smiles.” Prosper’s smile definitely has a sinister connotation here. He’s oblivious to Lemony’s panic and the potential ramifications of Hangfire’s “displeasure.” To Hangfire’s credit, he opened the package right away. Theodora and Lemony have another detailed, wordless exchange. “‘This is your fault, Snicket!’” Lemony has not had much luck freeing Hangfire’s victims, as he notes. “...Prosper Lost, who was bent over a piece of paper, counting on his fingers ….” Obsequious. Chapter 12Ellington: “I don’t even think Black Cat Coffee has water.” I wonder how they make the coffee? “‘I don’t care about Hangfire,’ Ellington said. ‘I care about my father.’” An interesting metaphor in retrospect. “‘Your father has fallen into wicked hands, but it is not necessary to be wicked ourselves.’” The Baudelaires eventually come to a different conclusion. I wonder if Lemony will as well. “‘So you’ll help me return [the Bombinating Beast] to the Mallahans?’ I said. ‘You promise?’ ‘If you promise to help me find my father,’ she said. ‘Shake on it.’” How will Ellington justify going back on this deal? “‘I’m reminded of a book my father used to read me,’ [Ellington] said. ‘A bunch of elves and things get into a huge war over a piece of jewelry that everybody wants but nobody can wear.’ ‘I never liked that kind of book,’ I replied. ‘There’s always a wizard who’s very powerful but not very helpful.’” I immediately think of Qwerty. “‘You may be right,’ she said, a phrase which here meant ‘I’m wrong, but I don’t have the courage to say so.’” Which book in ASOUE is this from? “‘Thank you, Ellington,’ I said. ‘I won’t forget my promise.’” It's fitting that Ellington doesn't return this sentiment.
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Post by Dante on Jul 8, 2019 15:47:01 GMT -5
I don't have my physical copy right now, but it's near the end of Chapter 8: "You wouldn't be in this mess, or this mystery, or this messy mystery, or this mysterious mess. You'd be deep in a hole in the city with a measuring tape your friend gave you, doing something else you'd promised to do instead." Thank you; that will do. I just wanted to be sure the line existed, basically; and there it is, page 165. In retrospect, that's the giveaway that Lemony's partner in the city is not Beatrice. I think Lemony's doing his best to clue Hangfire in, though I'm not entirely sure why. This sequence is basically a battle of trick versus counter-trick, but it's not clear what Lemony hoped to achieve by getting Hangfire to come to the Lost Arms to pick up the false Bombinating Beast. I suppose he just didn't expect Hangfire to open the package immediately. I'm pretty sure this is an ATWQ original.
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Post by Christmas Chief on Jul 8, 2019 17:33:29 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure this is an ATWQ original. I found the line I was thinking of. From TGG: "'Let's just agree to disagree,' the hook-handed man replied, using a tiresome expression which here means 'You're probably right, but I'm too embarrassed to admit it.'" Chapter 13“‘So the butler did it?’ asked Hector.” That must have been a satisfying line for Handler to write. Although do we know for sure at this point that the butler was Hangfire? That is, before Lemony tells us so a few lines later? “I hope you do not spend your twelfth birthday eating dusty peanuts in the lobby of the Lost Arms …” The reference to the dusty / salty peanuts brings the narrative full circle. The idea that the peanuts could be dusty seemed like a joke in Chapter 2 (or 3?). Now we find out they really were dusty, which is both another joke and symbolic of Lemony’s mood having lost the statue. Hangfire hired Theodora and Lemony to steal the statue, and convinced Ellington to steal it, too. How did he think this would go? Was Ellington the back up plan if Theodora and Lemony failed? Was he hoping they’d compete and thus distract each other while he stole the statue himself? “‘And how much of this is going into your official report?’ [Hector] asked me. ‘Practically none of it,’ I replied.” So ?1, the book we are reading, is not Lemony’s official report. “‘Is Theodora as bad as they say?’ ‘She’s upstairs taking a nap,’ I said, and Hector looked at his watch and shook his head.” I suppose Theodora was taking a nap at an inappropriate time of day. “‘If they tunnel into the wrong waterway, they’ll both be drowned.’” So these are the stakes - this is why the mission is very dangerous. Having a second person to check the maps and the pair’s current location can prevent them both from drowning. “‘There’s no replacement,’ I said.” No one can be trusted to replace him, I assume, since this is a mission against the wishes or at least without the knowledge of V.F.D. “‘Fight with your friend?’ Prosper Lost asked me, as if it were his business.” Prosper does have a special way of intruding. “I had been wrong over and over and over again, wrong every time about every clue to the dark and inky mystery hanging over me and everybody else.” That’s not true - Lemony doesn’t give himself credit for all the right moves he makes. In these last few chapters, he found the Beast in the Black Cat Coffee. He recognized Hangfire’s ruse on the phone. He tricked him into taking library books instead of the Beast. He’s a competent detective with a tendency to fixate on his mistakes. Final NotesSome themes that struck me in ?1: Lemony often speaks and behaves like an adult, reminiscent of the noir detective novels that are ATWQ's inspiration. Nonetheless, there are moments and lines throughout ?1 that remind us he's only twelve. These moments make interesting observations about childhood, adulthood, and the time in between. For example, Lemony's weariness about all the promises he has to bear is a mature responsibility, and he treats them as such. At the same time, he doesn't handle them that well. He allows Kit to undergo a dangerous mission on her own. He makes a promise to Ellington before he has all or most of the facts. He lacks experience in handling these complex situations, but maintains the right disposition throughout. His story reminds us that children are capable of a great deal on their own, but that the chaperone's role is not just technical support: it's also emotional and moral. Lemony recognizes this in multiple places in ?1. A fading town is mysterious in ways a vibrant city is not. In ASOUE, bustling scenes like the Hotel Denouement are mysterious because they're full of suspicious characters, potential spies, associates in disguise, and so on. These figures are confused for one another and no one has all the information. No one location is guaranteed to stay the same because people are always going in and out. In Stain'd-by-the-Sea, the mystery emerges from the fact that crimes can only have been committed by a limited set of characters. Locations are spread out and often abandoned, so clues can be left in those places for longer periods of time. The overall air of mystery comes from the lingering question, "What happened to this town?" as opposed to "What's in this town?" "Wrong" has multiple meanings throughout the text. I think it might be interesting to collect these and analyze how the different meanings inform Lemony's character in ATWQ as well as ASOUE.
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Post by Dante on Jul 9, 2019 4:37:36 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure this is an ATWQ original. I found the line I was thinking of. From TGG: "'Let's just agree to disagree,' the hook-handed man replied, using a tiresome expression which here means 'You're probably right, but I'm too embarrassed to admit it.'" The two are cut from the same cloth, you're right. I think it's a reasonable inference. We're told that the butler was the intermediary between Theodora and Mrs. Murphy Sallis; he's the one who was meant to be on standby to take possession of the Bombinating Beast after the theft; we're shown that the butler has the ability to imitate the voices of birds; he's suddenly out of the picture after Sally Murphy's deceit is revealed... There are enough clues to identify him as Hangfire. I don't think Hangfire ever really wanted Ellington to obtain the statue. He just wanted to put her somewhere he could keep an eye on her. Furthermore, ?4 indicates that Lemony had correctly anticipated Hangfire's identity and the purpose of the Bombinating Beast all along.
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Post by Foxy on Jul 9, 2019 8:07:06 GMT -5
“‘The Bombinating Beast?’ I said, just so I could see Prosper Lost take an interest in an even closer cushion.” Can we take this to mean Lemony trusts Prosper at this point? He’s confident enough to encourage Prosper’s eavesdropping, at least. Maybe? Or maybe he felt he just didn't have a choice. Maybe a better choice of word would have beens "serves" instead of "has." In addition to what Dante said, it's also similar to something defined in TWW where Aunt Josephine is annoyed at the children.
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Post by Carrie E. Abelabudite on Jul 23, 2019 15:21:18 GMT -5
Sorry I'm getting to this so late, I've been really busy the past few weeks. I'll try to post notes on the rest of the book tomorrow, then finish ?2 in the next couple of days so I can catch up.
General Notes
The first time I read this book, I found it kind of disappointing; I think because I went into it expecting - or hoping, anyway - that it would have All The Answers to everything that is left open-ended by ASOUE (I mean, not everything, but what was in the sugar bowl and the Great Unknown. I guess the book does contain hints towards the latter but what I really wanted to know was the former.) Anyway, I don't think anyone reading this series expecting that is really going to get all that much out of it, but every time I reread this book I find myself enjoying it more (starting to appreciate the ambiguity of ASOUE probably helped a lot there). Overall, I'd say that all the books in this series are better than the earlier ASOUE books but not as good as the later ones. Still, I like ASOUE more as a whole, since I really like the way it plays on so many of the conventions of many children's books and how it subverts so many of the features set up early in the series.
I would say the Egmont cover of this book is my favourite out of any of the ATWQ covers - I like the silhouette, and how simple it is. I would agree with criticism that other people have made about the general cover layout for the series, though.
Chapter One
I really like the first paragraph. It seems very jarring if you've just read ASOUE, since it's so different to anything there, but as with the first paragraph of TBB, it sets up the series very well.
I wonder if either the Hemlock Tearoom and Stationery Shop or the Museum of Bad Breakfasts will make an appearance in Poison For Breakfast. Also, it seems important that only the teams drinkable. Not sure how to fit that into the whole 'tea should be bitter as wormwood' puzzle, but it definitely feels significant, especially since hemlock is a type of poison.
'I couldn't help but wonder what kind of person would take the time to write "roadster" when the word "car" would do.' Why, a VFD member, of course!
'It was a folding ladder. I knew it was there. I'd put it there myself.' The whole set-up with the fake parents and the bathroom is one I find confusing. Clearly, Lemony seems to have anticipated that he would need to escape this way, but then why would he even agree to go out to tea with his 'parents'? For that matter, had he been staying with them after graduation but before his apprenticeship began? If not, where was he staying?
This has been pointed out before, but this episode makes Theodora appear much more competent than how she is presented at any other point in the series.
If Theodora doesn't want to tell people what the 'S' stands for, why even introduce herself using that initial?
That Lemony's tea contained laudanum is another possibly interesting element in the tea/sugar bowl mystery. In particular, the line 'the smell was sweet and wrong' jumps out to me. Seems like Lemony has already been trained to accept that tea should be bitter.
'[Theodora] looked pleasant enough, I would say, though I wouldn't say it to her." Ha! I love Lemony's and her relationship.
'"those weren't my parents," I said, and off we went.' I love this chapter ending. Also, one would think Theodora should know that those weren't Lemony's parents. Especially since she seems to know Gifford and Ghede in ?4. I'm going to assume that when she said '"your parents would have hurried you out of that place"', she really meant 'your "parents"', in quotation marks, and Lemony just didn't pick up on it.
Chapter Two
I like the idea of not being able to find the road on a map. I think that's similar to a Moby-Dick quote about true places never being in a map, but actually it reminds me of Moon Over Manifest, a children's book I liked a lot when I was younger that featured that quote. The story takes place in the fictional Manifest, Kansas, during the Depression - a once-thriving town that is now run-down. The main plot involves a bunch of children solving mysteries about the town's past, so the basic set-up has a lot of parallels to ATWQ.
I always find it difficult to patch together Lemony and Kit's plan. Why are they wanting to measure the Fountain of Victorious Finance construction site, and sneak around the sewage system?
The at measuring tape should make readers think of Beatrice. Even though I had not read TBL when I first read this book, I still assumed it was Beatrice Lemony was planning on meeting at the fountain - I think even if you hadn't read ASOUE, it probably would be more intuitive that Lemony was trying to meet with some kind of romantic interest rather than his sister.
Also, presumably Kit is older than Lemony, which makes it strange that she too is just starting her own apprenticeship, unless it's the norm within VFD to partake in multiple of them. After all, Bertrand can't be that much older than Lemony and he's no longer working with Theodora. The other option, I guess, is that your education in VFD starts as soon as you are taken and since not everybody is taken at the same age, they also finish various stages of their training (schooling, apprenticeships, etc.) at different times. That seems an odd way of doing things, but then VFD is often very odd.
'Before long we had passed out of the neighborhood, and then out of the district, and then out of the city altogether' - I'd be interested to know more about how the city is organised.
Where would Theodora have heard the rule about wearing masks when the bell rings? The only person I can think of who might have told her is Dashiell Qwerty, or some other VFD member, and you'd think they should know that there's no legitimate reason to put them on.
I'd like to know more about where Stain'd is in relation to the city. If the city is on the coast, you'd think Stain'd would be further down it, but it's hard to understand where Stain'd would have been in relation to the sea that people were able to drain it such that it is no longer anywhere near the town.
'It was impossible to tame, like leeches.' I wonder if VFD has tried to do this very thing? Maybe that's how Ike died, though of course that can't have happened yet.
Chapter Three
'I took little notice of the butler' - this should be a clue that he's important, but it's easy to ignore on a first read.
'I've never cared for [the VFD insignia].' An interesting insight into Lemony's feelings on the organisation. Of course, this fits in with how we think of the insignia for much of ASOUE.
Then, with a great sigh, as if preparing herself for an important performance, Mrs Sallis looked at Theodora and began to speak.' This line jumps out on a reread, but it could easily be interpreted as just a figure of speech at first.
The scene with the butler and the birds should be a clue that Hangfire and Armstrong Feint are one and the same, but not knowing anything about either, it would be hard to pick up on this as significant on a first read. There are a lot of details like this, I'm realising. I like how the clues in this chapter are there but not too obvious for a first-time reader.
It always makes me laugh that Theodora pretends Lemony is her husband instead of going for the more obvious story that he's her son.
Chapter Four
'"We're not going to call a distinguished woman a liar and believe the word of a little girl."' We see many adults in ASOUE who have this attitude. One might expect that an adult who is a member of VFD to be different, but now we see that's not always the case.
I remember reading a suggestion that Theodora is actually saying '"Silly, boy,"' instead of '"Silly boy,"' in answer to the question of what her name is. While I don't think that is her name, it's actually one of the more sensible suggestions I've seen - I have heard of people being called Silly as a nickname for Sylvia, and this is a universe where there is a character whose first name is 'Hungry'. Why Theodora would want to hide this from anyone, though, is unclear.
'I was hungry again, or maybe I was still hungry.' Probably still hungry, if the only thing he's had to eat all day are a few cookies.
'"I'm afraid the elevator isn't working today, so you'll have to take the stairs."' A call-back to TEE I only just noticed. Here, that plot-point is repurposed for a completely different context.
'I used to be that young man, almost thirteen, walking alone down an empty street in a half-faded town.' How long after the events is Lemony writing all this down? Most of the way the book is written gives me the impression that it's not that long later, maybe a few months after the end of ?4. But this makes it seem like it's longer than that.
'Supposedly sailors still saw the Bombinating Beast, swimming with its body curled up like an underwater question mark,' This will obviously make anyone who has read ASOUE think of the Great Unknown, though of course it doesn't prove anything.
Like Lemony, I would be interested in reading more about the Stain'd witches. I wonder if they have any connection to the Beast.
'"Hey," repeated a mocking voice,"' This seems reminiscent of Vice Principal Nero, though I don't think he and Stew are the same person.
Qwerty talking to Lemony about theatre/Dame Sally Murphy makes me wonder how much he knows. If he knows she's masquerading as Murphy Sallis and working for Hangfire, you'd think he could do more to help. Not that his attitude of 'lurk around in the shadows, and give cryptic clues, but do nothing else' is atypical of VFD members. I guess since he's meant to be supervising Lemony and Theodora, they're really the ones who are meant to be solving everything. But it seems like his not telling them things they need to know could really put them in danger.
Chapter Five
I love the Officers Mitchum and their bickering.
'"Wherever a chaperone goes, there is someone keeping an eye on things."' I think it's pretty easy to work out from the start that their supervisor is Qwerty, though some clues do point to Prosper Lost.
I wonder if Pip and Squeak driving their car is a reference to The Secret School by Avi. I seem to remember that that book featured a brother and sister who lived a long way from their school, so they had to drive there, but the sister was too short to reach the pedals, so the brother had to sit on the floor and push them with his hands.
Chapter Six
Hangfire's original plan to get the Beast sculpture is really staggering in how simple it is. I mean, his assumption that the Mallahans didn't care that much about the sculpture and would have been willing to hand it over actually turned out to be correct. But did he really think they would respond favourably to an anonymous telegram?
As others have pointed out, Lemony's speech about children and adults being separate has strong parallels to the Chapter Fourteen dedication. It's also very depressing. Of course, it's not difficult to see why Lemony feels this way considering that he has to all intents and purposes been abandoned by his parents (I mean, I know he was recruited into VFD, but based on what we see in TUA, it seems that his parents must have given permission for this to go ahead). Going off what we see of Beatrice and Bertrand's relationship with their children in ASOUE, it seems like they were able to break this cycle to a degree, but only to a degree. I guess the same goes for Violet, Klaus sand Sunny, and their relationship with Beatrice.
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Post by Dante on Jul 24, 2019 6:30:04 GMT -5
'It was a folding ladder. I knew it was there. I'd put it there myself.' The whole set-up with the fake parents and the bathroom is one I find confusing. Clearly, Lemony seems to have anticipated that he would need to escape this way, but then why would he even agree to go out to tea with his 'parents'? For that matter, had he been staying with them after graduation but before his apprenticeship began? If not, where was he staying? It only occurred to me recently that another problem with Lemony having placed the folding ladder there himself was that only moments earlier he had to ask how to find the bathroom; but conceivably he was only feigning ignorance. It seems to me that they intend to access the place they're intending to access via the city's waterways. I think this is the conclusion we have tended to come to, although it's also very possible that Kit is simply in the second year (month, period, duration) of her apprenticeship and had simply taken some time off to meet up with Lemony. I assume she was given some basic information about Stain'd-by-the-Sea when she was given this assignment, and absorbed it at only the most superficial level. I intend to issue some thoughts on this once I've finished my compilation of all her responses Taking into account a promise Snicket makes at the end of ?4, I think what we're reading is a polished version of an account he wrote much closer to the time in question.
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Post by Foxy on Jul 24, 2019 8:31:10 GMT -5
Sorry I'm getting to this so late, I've been really busy the past few weeks. I'll try to post notes on the rest of the book tomorrow, then finish ?2 in the next couple of days so I can catch up. I'm so excited you're commenting again!!! I hear you. I didn't even know this book series was coming out - I happened to find the first one shortly after it came out because I was perusing the Snicket section at the library, so I'm not really sure I had any expectations. I agree, the series is better than the earlier ASOUE books. I'm not sure which series I like better. I like all the goofiness of the ASOUE series, but I think I like the storyline of ATWQ betters. That's a really interesting conjecture. It makes me chuckle when Snicket kind of rips on STM, but then he is guilty of doing some of the same things she does when he writes ASOUE. Maybe it's like Harry S Truman, where the S didn't stand for anything. Do you think this also ties in with Ishmael's story about the girl who fed her tea to a plant and then the plant died? I think what Dante thinks, and then they needed to make sure they didn't run into any pipes of water which could flood the tunnel and drown them. I definitely thought it was Beatrice! Maybe she heard it from "Murphy Sallis" when she was hired, who, through Hangfire, was trying to give her bad information. I know, right? I had wondered that, too, and thought maybe they are cousins? I think I thought it was Prosper the first read-through, but he was so bad at being secretive about it. It would almost be too much to have a bad guardian and a bad supervisor.
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Post by Dante on Jul 24, 2019 10:06:40 GMT -5
I think I thought it was Prosper the first read-through, but he was so bad at being secretive about it. It would almost be too much to have a bad guardian and a bad supervisor. Qwerty is better at being secretive in observing events, but worse at being secretive about dropping hints.
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Post by Hermes on Jul 24, 2019 11:58:46 GMT -5
Regarding Qwerty: I thought we were clearly being led to believe he was the observer, but wondered if that might be a red herring, because he seems to be helping Lemony and Kit's secret plan, which is not approved of by the VFD leadership. So I wondered if Lost was the observer (he certainly tries to observe), and Qwerty a more subversive figure, perhaps the agent of another faction. In the end, of course, it turns out that L and K's plan is (probably) not contrary to the wishes of VFD after all, which resolves the problem.
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Post by Carrie E. Abelabudite on Aug 2, 2019 16:07:06 GMT -5
Chapter Seven
'It was not so dark that I couldn't see her strange, curved eyebrows, each one coiled over like a question mark.' Another possible Great Unknown parallel, though not much comes of it.
It seems like there's something significant in Ellington drinking coffee but Lemony not liking it. It will be interesting to analyse how this motif progresses.
Armstrong Feint is really pretty bad at estimating what people will do. Maybe he just understands animals better?
Does Ellington suspect that Hangfire is her father? I would guess that she doesn't, at this point anyway.
Do we ever find out more about the mail delivery? And does Ellington know 'Very Fast Delivery' is a VFD coded phrase?
Chapter Eight
The complete power reversal we see between Theodora's scolding of Lemony and just a few lines later, when she says '"You promise?"' is an interesting one.
Kit and Lemony's 'coded' communication always makes me laugh in how transparent it is. Did they really think the librarians wouldn't pick up on what they were actually doing? They've been trained in sneaking around, spying, and using coded communication their whole lives!
Chapter Nine
Lemony having to learn how to put his fear aside is a very sad passage. A childhood in VFD really doesn't seem like much of a childhood at all.
The illustration of the basement is sort of odd - it looks like a Roman bath or something. Is it actually described as having arches?
From what I've read of this thread, it seems that the consensus is that Sally Murphy thinks Lemony is a member of the Inhumane Society, but it's also worth considering the Hangfire particularly dislikes VFD.
Lemony admitting he can't solve the mystery alone but trying to do it anyway feels significant. As others have said, he probably is trying to make sure Moxie isn't in danger, but is also almost seems like he has been trained not to accept the help of others and do things on his own.
Chapter Ten
I agree that Lemony hating being called L ties in with his disillusionment with VFD.
It seems like Lemony really wants the reassurance that he is doing alright on his own. This could be tied in with what Moxie says to him in the previous chapter.
People have questioned why neither Hangfire nor Ellington got their hands on the statue while it was in the attic of Black Cat Coffee. In Ellington's case, I guess it can be chalked up to an underestimation - she didn't think Lemony would be able to find it and thought she didn't have to rush back to get it. As for Hangfire, well, it seems like he still thinks at this pint that the statue is at the lighthouse, otherwise he would't have lured Moxie out the way he did.
'The sun was dying when I stepped back out into the street,' Wait, it's already the end of the day? I guess Lemony has had enough to do that it's not entirely surprising that that much time has passed, but until this, I was thinking that it should still be late morning or early afternoon.
'Though the window I could see Pip sound asleep against the steering wheel. I envied him as I walked into the lobby.' You envy that he has to sleep in a car? (I mean, I get what Lemony is trying to say here, but Pip and Squeak have a pretty miserable life, even compared to him).
Chapter Eleven
'"Thank goodness you found a telephone," I said.' I think from this it's not too difficult to work out that Lemony is not talking to Ellington and is able to see through Hangfire's ruse. Of course, this is confirmed for us a few lines later. Prosper allowing Hangfire up to the Far East Suite makes him seem sort of malicious - at least the way it's described, with him smiling as he tells Lemony what he has done.
Hangfire ripping the sheet with his teeth reminds me of the henchperson of indeterminate gender picking up (I think) Klaus by his teeth in TWW.
Also, what could Hangfire have put on the doorknob, and why?
Who took the mail? I find it hard to keep up with this particular subplot.
Chapter Twelve
'"Your father has fallen into wicked hands, but it is not necessary to be wicked ourselves."' Well, we'll see about that. I think 'good people becoming corrupted' is a less overt theme here than in ASOUE, but it's very noticeable once you start looking for it.
'"My parents can't help me," I said. "They're helpless."' I can't help but think there's something weird going on with Lemony's parents here - more on this later.
'"A library is usually a safe place,"' This seems like Lemony is parroting VFD policy. Odd, then, that even with the number of libraries we see in ASOUE, there are so few safe places left. I guess many of them do get destroyed over the course of the series.
I'm still confused about the sleight-of-hand Ellington created in order to get the Beast. I don't see how she could have pulled it off.
It's weird that Lemony refers to Stew as 'Stewie' in the narration. I think this is the only time he does so, unless he does it another time sarcastically right after his parents had called him that.
Chapter Thirteen
Unlike ASOUE, where the final chapter always feels like part of the plot, these come across more like epilogues.
The beginning of the chapter confirms Hector's age relative to Lemony, and also that he is a VFD member, something that is not made clear by ASOUE.
'I hope you do not spend your twelfth birthday eating dusty peanuts in the lobby of the Lost Arms' - Not too dissimilar to Klaus Baudelaire's thirteenth birthday, where he has to drink dusty water in jail.
We get a bit more info about Lemony and Kit's plan here, as well as about what the other apprentices are doing, but if you haven't read the later books, you really can't put together any of the pieces just yet. Presumably, Hector is trying to photograph the Great Unknown.
I hadn't noticed the similarity between the last paragraph and the Hotel Denouement Clock until Foxy pointed it out. It's a clever parallel, though.
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