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Post by Dante on Oct 1, 2019 12:45:40 GMT -5
Chapter Nine
“One of the shrubs around here contains a nutrient that acts as a natural stimulant […] If you chew on a rolled-up piece of bark, you don’t feel as tired. […] It was someone else’s good idea […] I found a rolled-up bark cigarette in the trash, near 350 Wayward Way.” / “The bark’s been stripped away from most of the shrubs […] Someone has been out here fighting the effects of laudanum for quite some time.” (p. 194) This can only be Hangfire, who did indeed leave the cigarette at Wayward Way, and whose naturalist background would give him the knowledge and awareness of the effect of these shrubs. Still, the Wade Academy has only received its present intake of students within the last couple of days, and you wouldn’t have thought Hangfire would risk spending so much time around the very substance he’s using to drug so many of his captives. I provide a possible solution to this problem in The Stain’d Myth Murders. But I also wonder if the cigarette Stew Mitchum’s purportedly using is one of these bark cigarettes, and if Sharon Haines and any other accomplices of Hangfire might be similarly equipped, which might go some way to accounting for the deficit.
“without her coffee I’m not sure we’d be here talking to you.” / “Here’s someone who knows more than we do” (p. 195) / “After my school burned down, the Department of Education told us we’d get a top-drawer education […] We were searched and told to stay in our rooms, and we stay there, and that’s it and that’s all.” (p. 196) So, here’s the thing. Everyone involved in this scene acts as if they’ve been imprisoned at the Wade Academy for quite some time – days, weeks even would fit. Well, as we subsequently learn, it’s still night, presumably the same night Snicket was captured; Snicket’s associates were captured the previous day, and Stain’d Secondary only burned down the day before that. So Snicket’s associates have been at the Wade Academy less than twenty-four hours, and it can’t possibly have been as many as forty-eight hours since Ornette arrived.
‘She tilted the paper this way and that and in no time had a folded pyramid in front of her.’ (p. 196) If you think, it’s possible to anticipate Ornette’s role in ?4 purely from her talent.
“She always wanted to be an actress, and a few months ago she was invited to study with a theatrical legend here in Stain’d-by-the-Sea.” (p. 198) Why did Hangfire pick on this random family from who knows where to serve his interests, in particular? I provide a possible solution to this problem in The Stain’d Myth Murders.
“I don’t think it’s to warn people about water pressure, or salt lung. Maybe it used to be.” (p. 202) Physically and medically unlikely.
“what are we going to do?” / “Not what everyone’s parents did […] Not nothing.” (p. 205) Another idea I build on in The Stain’d Myth Murders.
“V.F.D. […] Is that real? […] It’s a secret organization […] I’ve seen mentions of it here and there.” (p. 206) Even Moxie knows what V.F.D. is, roughly. The mentions she’s seen are perhaps remnants from a time before it was so secret.
“We’re an invincible army, but not a victorious one. We’ve had different names throughout history, but all the words that describe us are false, and all attempts to organize us fail. Right now we’re called V.F.D., but all our schisms and arguments might cause us to disappear.” (p. 208) A vision of V.F.D. that lines cleanly up with ASoUE, even in all ASoUE’s contradictions and inconsistencies. V.F.D. as an organization that’s schismed multiple times, that claims kinship with other organisations of one sort or another throughout history – this ties up a number of more awkward references within ASoUE more neatly.
“There may be a time when this symbol means something treacherous and terrible, rather than something noble and literate.” (p. 209) One of the few instances where ATWQ really feels like an ASoUE prequel. I dwell to a certain extent on this idea in The Stain’d Myth Murders, too.
‘I told him good night and he went out and I held tight to the object Kellar Haines had just slipped me. It was small, round, and cold, like a very thick coin. I’d like to think you can trust absolutely all of us, he’d said, so I thought it was best not to look at it in front of Ellington Feint.’ (p. 212) I wonder if part of the reason Ellington doesn’t really feel any loyalty to Snicket and his friends is because they don’t trust her, either, even at a time like this. This is what I like about Ellington as a character; people have to involve her but they’re never sure if they should, and that goes as much for the villains as the heroes. She truly is on her own side, until at last she has to choose.
“I know it’s been a long night, Snicket […] but there’s something else I need to show you.” (p. 212) It is amazing how sinister this sequences feels, unfolding directly after that expression of Kellar and Lemony’s distrust.
‘until we were outside in the night’ (p. 212) Citation for it still being night.
‘Ellington put her hand on my shoulder and guided me to the very edge of the rock, like it was a diving board. I could feel the nothingness of the dark pond, just under the tips of my toes, and Ellington’s fingers on my shoulder.’ (p. 218) This is one of my favourite sequences in the series. I had no idea. I had no idea if she was going to push him in or not.
‘If she pushes you, I thought, at last you will know. All of the reading and thinking you have done has pointed you toward a mystery of unspeakable size, and here it is, Snicket. Here’s the dark thing you imagine very late, on very terrible nights. It has been beckoning you since you were a baby, when you emerged from the darkness of the womb. You didn’t know it then, but from that moment on you would float toward another darkness, all the mysterious days and all the mysterious nights of your whole mysterious life. Here it is, Snicket. Listen for this mystery that has been stalking you since they first inked your ankle.’ (p. 218) A giant monster, and a metaphor for death. But that doesn’t get you away from the fact that it wasn’t originally a metaphor for death, does it?
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Post by Hermes on Oct 2, 2019 9:40:56 GMT -5
I just want to say that I read this when I was away in August, expecting the reread to start quite soon, and now I have forgotten it all. But I will catch up sooner or later.
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Post by Foxy on Oct 2, 2019 14:22:21 GMT -5
“We can be transferred to another location, and we’ll never have to worry about Stain’d-by-the-Sea again.” (p. 144) What’s interesting about this is that it confirms, finally, that Lemony and Theodora have been formally stationed in Stain’d-by-the-Sea rather than just being there for specific jobs. My own reading of this is that Stain’d-by-the-Sea is thought by V.F.D. to be obscure and unimportant, and thus a good place to put troublemakers out of harm’s way. Either way, it confirms that V.F.D. can’t have wanted Lemony to play a role in his sister’s activities, no matter what else may be the case. I wonder why they didn't want him to help her. Wait, how do you know that? “Stew Mitchum. He polices these hallways day and night with a cigarette in his mouth and a smirk on his face.” / “There’s boys like that at every school.” (p. 169) I wonder if Lemony is thinking of anyone in particular. And I wonder something else about this cigarette, but I’ll discuss it next chapter. I think this is just commentary on real life. I wouldn't be surprised if she was stronger than Stew. He has seen him a couple of times at this point, but I don't think he ever describes the face in great detail. Well, I mean, there is Quigley in TSS. “One of the shrubs around here contains a nutrient that acts as a natural stimulant […] If you chew on a rolled-up piece of bark, you don’t feel as tired. […] It was someone else’s good idea […] I found a rolled-up bark cigarette in the trash, near 350 Wayward Way.” / “The bark’s been stripped away from most of the shrubs […] Someone has been out here fighting the effects of laudanum for quite some time.” (p. 194) This can only be Hangfire, who did indeed leave the cigarette at Wayward Way, and whose naturalist background would give him the knowledge and awareness of the effect of these shrubs. Still, the Wade Academy has only received its present intake of students within the last couple of days, and you wouldn’t have thought Hangfire would risk spending so much time around the very substance he’s using to drug so many of his captives. I provide a possible solution to this problem in The Stain’d Myth Murders. But I also wonder if the cigarette Stew Mitchum’s purportedly using is one of these bark cigarettes, and if Sharon Haines and any other accomplices of Hangfire might be similarly equipped, which might go some way to accounting for the deficit. I just wonder what it is made of to act as an antidote. She's such a great addition to the cast. It never really feels prequel to me because of all the differences. The narrative feels like it is being told by a completely different author, and the stories just don't seem much alike to me. The themes seem the same, but not the stories themselves. Ha! I love it. I just want to say that I read this when I was away in August, expecting the reread to start quite soon, and now I have forgotten it all. But I will catch up sooner or later. I reread all the books when I wrote my commonplace book, and now as we keep going, I have to rereread, too.
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Post by Dante on Oct 2, 2019 15:49:05 GMT -5
I just want to say that I read this when I was away in August, expecting the reread to start quite soon, and now I have forgotten it all. But I will catch up sooner or later. This is the advantage of taking copious notes. I've already finished the reread, I just don't always remember to post a new set of notes... “We can be transferred to another location, and we’ll never have to worry about Stain’d-by-the-Sea again.” (p. 144) What’s interesting about this is that it confirms, finally, that Lemony and Theodora have been formally stationed in Stain’d-by-the-Sea rather than just being there for specific jobs. My own reading of this is that Stain’d-by-the-Sea is thought by V.F.D. to be obscure and unimportant, and thus a good place to put troublemakers out of harm’s way. Either way, it confirms that V.F.D. can’t have wanted Lemony to play a role in his sister’s activities, no matter what else may be the case. I wonder why they didn't want him to help her. Exactly what V.F.D. makes of Lemony and Kit's mission is never quite clear. On the one hand, it's evident that Snicket disagrees with the way V.F.D. is run and is effectively planning a schism, which the theft of the item would probably have played into; on the other hand, I think there's reason to suppose that V.F.D. wanted to get their hands on the item, too. It's possible that V.F.D. is tacitly allowing the theft to go ahead with the intention of securing the item by any means afterwards, and Lemony threw an almighty spanner in the works by not being where he was supposed to be (though the disappearance of the item around the time of Kit's capture is also a factor). It's a logical inference and the only possible explanation. The mysterious papery substance is described in similar terms to the material on the base of the Bombinating Beast statue, and it follows that it would require a piece of the actual Bombinating Beast's body to reproduce its distinctive call. Oh, I do think it's commentary on real life. I just wonder if it's commentary on Snicket's life as well. I don't mean that it's never stated in ASoUE, though there's only one really unambiguous, inarguable confirmation; what I mean is I doubt anyone expected ATWQ to just casually give away answers ASoUE held back for as long as it could. I'd agree that ATWQ is not really a prequel; I seem to recall Handler saying at one point that it was "almost mocking the idea of a prequel". So it's remarkable when it actually feels that way, rather than merely being so by default rather than in spirit. Chapter Ten“Whenever I seem to get close to finding my father, I hear that horrible thing.” (p. 224) Assures us that Hangfire has indeed been preparing this particular specimen for quite some time, though where Ellington has been that she might have heard it before is unclear. The Colophon Clinic swimming pool, perhaps? “In the back of a wagon […] pulled by a taxi.” (p. 229) One wonders when Snicket had time to start formulating this plan. “There’s a wagon over by the gate. We need to throw it over the wall.” (p. 236) The wagon that’s longer and wider than an automobile. “To the library […] You need to empty it.” (p. 243) This task, on the other hand, will merely take longer than Snicket imagines, rather than just requiring more physical strength. I suppose I should really just put this down alongside swordfighting babies, but it’s not absurd enough for me to easily suspend my disbelief.
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Post by Foxy on Oct 2, 2019 18:57:22 GMT -5
“In the back of a wagon […] pulled by a taxi.” (p. 229) One wonders when Snicket had time to start formulating this plan. I wonder how a taxi had a hitch on it and that kind of towing capacity. It might measurement-wise be bigger than the automobile, but if it is just an empty wagon made of wood, perhaps it is not too terribly heavy? Cars made of metal weigh a few tons. I still maintain this is entirely plausible.
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Post by Dante on Oct 3, 2019 15:30:30 GMT -5
Chapter Eleven
I told a lie back in my ?2 notes; I’d forgotten entirely the memory with Jacques at the start of this chapter (pp. 247-248). But I still wonder why Kit gets centralised and Jacques may as well not exist in the present day events. Not even a single offhand sentence describing his feelings about his siblings’ activities, or suggesting why he’s unable to help Kit?
“Have you read any of those mysteries […] with the Belgian detective in the funny hat?” (p. 250) A funny hat isn’t what people remember Poirot for; I respect not being obvious, but I don’t remember him ever having an unusual hat at all.
“Have you read the one that takes place on a train?” (p. 251) There’s a certain amount of foreshadowing for next time in this book.
“We’ll put the books on the bottom and that crinkly stuff on top, and let’s hurry, because soon a school bus will drive out of that gate and we need to follow it to wherever it’s going.” (p. 252) Raising eyebrows at the swiftness of these activities could get old, but I can probably let it slide from here.
‘Maybe Unsupervised was my first name after all.’ (p. 255) I wonder if lines like this are supposed to establish the possibility that Theodora’s first name is something you wouldn’t ordinarily expect to be a first name.
‘The taxi was stopped in front of Hungry’s diner. […] “Around the corner […] Right by Partial Foods”’ (p. 256) Cartographers take note. This makes another location that’s barely any distance at all from most of the other recurring locations in town, Hungry’s and the Lost Arms and the library and the police station being on the same street.
“A stop at the library and then a ride back to Offshore Island.” (p. 257) A pretty significant stop, and with, as I said, Hungry’s and the library on the same street – and the police station right outside the library! – then one has to raise eyebrows at nobody noticing what Pip and Squeak are doing during what must have been a fairly lengthy task.
“You’re that Snicket kid.” (p. 258) It’s amazing that she recognises him.
“He didn’t give his name […] although he reminded me of someone. […] Oh, it was years ago.” (p. 258) Polly may have lousy eyesight, but it seems she has a better memory.
‘Maybe she’d brought a book with her, to pass the time until one o’ clock.’ (p. 260) You’d have thought this was unlikely, but it depends upon the book.
‘There were train tracks where imported foods could be dropped off’ (p. 261) An unusual stop, and it’s interesting that Stain’d-by-the-Sea effectively had multiple stops, then.
‘The alley spat me out at the back of the building’ (p. 261) ‘I saw Jake, Cleo, and Moxie make their move, moving quickly, quietly, and scurrying down the alley.’ (p. 263) So wait, is Snicket standing at the end of the alley, or not?
‘It was perhaps the same hand she had used to strike my chaperone’ (p. 267) It’s surprising to me that Lemony assumes Sharon had injured Theodora; she appeared to be enjoying herself with her fairly earnestly. Meanwhile, Hangfire was walking around with a club or a cudgel or a staff or a wedge.
‘we both looked back at a tall, masked figure, watching us calmly. Too calmly, I thought.’ (p. 270) Effacement of personality.
“But even if you stop us from burning down Diceys—” (p. 271) You wouldn’t have thought Stew Mitchum was such a good actor. He’s been fooling his parents for years, of course, but he doesn’t try very hard to do so.
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Post by Foxy on Oct 4, 2019 10:51:46 GMT -5
I told a lie back in my ?2 notes; I’d forgotten entirely the memory with Jacques at the start of this chapter (pp. 247-248). But I still wonder why Kit gets centralised and Jacques may as well not exist in the present day events. Not even a single offhand sentence describing his feelings about his siblings’ activities, or suggesting why he’s unable to help Kit? I sometimes wonder if maybe Lemony and Jacques had some kind of a falling out. Were all those lines about never seeing his brother again just in the show? I don't remember them being in the books. But he seemed to lament that he would never see his brother again. I wonder if maybe they just weren't very close. Lemony and Kit seem very close in the actual series, with all the secret messages Lemony sends Kit. Maybe the S doesn't stand for anything? In Harry S Truman, the S doesn't stand for anything. I would probably chalk this up to none of the adults in this series ever paying attention to what the kids are doing. I think this either means the town is bigger than we think it is, or the train is almost like a subway or skytram or something, where it is able to make multiple stops at fairly close locations. Like urban public transportation. Sharon Haines seemed like a pretty desperate person, and desperate people can be volatile.
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Post by Dante on Oct 5, 2019 2:51:29 GMT -5
I sometimes wonder if maybe Lemony and Jacques had some kind of a falling out. Were all those lines about never seeing his brother again just in the show? I don't remember them being in the books. But he seemed to lament that he would never see his brother again. I wonder if maybe they just weren't very close. Lemony and Kit seem very close in the actual series, with all the secret messages Lemony sends Kit. The book doesn't weight on Jacques's death as much, largely as it's not clear until near the end of TVV that Jacques was a Snicket; Lemony's regrets therefore seem to be tied up with the fact that he's reflecting on his brother's death. Kit therefore naturally gets more focus afterwards as she was still alive at the time of writing (or at least at the time of reading). Chapter Twelve“Ice and towels. What part hurts the worst, Snicket?” (p. 276) Cleo was also cast as the medic in ?2. Her knowledge of chemistry evidently extends to the workings of the human body. “I’ve been in V.F.D. since before you were born. I’ve been a part of ten thousand fragmentary plots all over the globe, doing my tiny part of a plan I can’t even imagine.” (p. 285) This idea of V.F.D. having a grand plan (whether figurative or literal) will be revisited next volume. ‘She was talking about Bertrand, her previous apprentice.’ (pp. 285-286) This line is perfectly arranged across the page boundary to surprise. The fans expected Olaf, if anyone, but Bertrand works well for different reasons. ‘He was a saint. He never gave her any trouble whatsoever. He was a decent person who never gave anyone reason to lose any sleep. He’d end up married to a wonderful woman and have very charming children, while I languished alone and lonely.’ (p. 286) Even in ASoUE, we never really find out anything about what Lemony thinks of Bertrand, though certain interpretations of TBL suggest that Lemony is suspicious of him – and perhaps it’s easy to see why, with an endorsement like this. He was certainly better at managing Theodora than Lemony was, but was he a better volunteer? Or did he just ask the right questions? ‘and then Pip asked me the question found on the cover of this book. / I said yes.’ (p. 288) Snicket asks the question on the cover of this book once, and it’s spelled out. It’s asked to him twice by other people without being spelled out. I still interpret it as the right question when asked by Snicket in this volume, uniquely spelled out; he gets an answer that’s important. And while this book can reasonably be said to be about this question, I’m not sure it fits the bill as a title in this series the way other title questions do. The usual trend is of obvious questions that are ultimately unhelpful and yield no insight. That’s only true of the first instance here, when it’s asked to Snicket by Hangfire as a cover. ‘She was wearing a dress that matched the color of the sunset’ (p. 289) Is this the ‘long, fancy evening gown’ mentioned in ?1? ‘Even at around thirteen years of age’ (p. 289) I have a theory about this statement, and another later, though ?4 doesn’t really back it up; but it’s a strong enough theory that it’s strange that it’s not validated. ‘It was probably at that moment that Ellington Feint ceased to be a mysterious figure in the middle of a whirlpool of difficult questions that had surrounded me since I first set foot in Stain’d-by-the-Sea, and started to become the reason I was still in Stain’d-by-the-Sea trying to answer those questions in the first place.’ (p. 289) It’s a bit late in the day for that, although it’s true that Ellington’s role in this book is very different from her role in previous titles. “I went up to the bell tower and sat with a book until one o’ clock sharp.” (p. 291) Oh, she’s good. (But she was also telling the truth.) “ Olaf loves Guess Who.” (p. 291) This is pure provocation from the author. “Because I can’t take my eyes off you” / “I mean that if I don’t keep an eye on you, you’re likely to do something treacherous.” (p. 293) And after all that build-up, it all comes crashing down. ‘The moon shone on Caviar: Salty Jewel of the Tasty Sea.’ (p. 295) “The library has a secret—an important one that burns like a fire in the mind.” (p. 296) Snicket really bungles this one. He is the only reason why the book that’s most important was the only one destroyed. ‘In a way, it was the statue that had started the fuss, as I’d learned while investigating my last big case. But the fuss had long ago grown bigger than the statue had ever been, the way an answer to a simple, clear question can turn out to be complicated and mysterious.’ (p. 297) This is a different usage of ‘big case’ to that in File Under: 13 Suspicious Incidents, in which ATWQ is treated as a single big case, rather than a series of big cases. I always think it’s a shame that the series doesn’t dwell more on that interesting past which is the root of the trouble, although it’s true it wouldn’t necessarily help to stop what’s happening in the present. “You’re wrong, Snicket. You’re wrong about me and you’re wrong about what’s happening.” (p. 298) It’s more complicated than that, unfortunately. Snicket shouldn’t have walked into that library. “The jig is up. Snicket’s figured out the plot.” (p. 300) Ellington must realise that Caviar: Salty Jewel of the Tasty Sea is the real crux of the plot, or else why would she have taken it away? And if she was really absolutely in on Hangfire’s plot, why hadn’t she turned the book over to him already? Why did Qwerty think it would be safe to give her that book? Qwerty must either not have known that Ellington had changed allegiances, or anticipated that she was only really working for herself; which is also the reason why she didn’t hand over that book. It’s immaterial to her if the library is destroyed. She only wants to know the secret for herself. And on a different note, I have always thought that it rather confirms the worst about Ellington that she was willing to collaborate with Stew Mitchum; it’s a uniquely unsympathetic touch. I’d say this makes it very likely that he did indeed help her to move Snicket to her room back at the Wade Academy. “Hangfire has a particular revulsion for members of V.F.D.” (p. 300) We never really learn anything more about this, any kind of context. I hypothesised back in the day that Armstrong Feint had been a member of V.F.D. himself once, one who became disillusioned in much the same manner as Snicket; and I followed the implications of that through in The Stain’d Myth Murders. But we learn no more in canon. ‘If Dashiell Qwerty had told me, I thought, surely he’d told Ellington Feint about the north-east corner.’ (p. 303) I’d like to have seen a conversation between Qwerty and Ellington, even if Qwerty was wrong. ‘I did not know if Dashiell Qwerty had thought about the terrible effects of water when he had the sprinkler system installed’ (p. 305) He’s a pretty lousy volunteer if he didn’t, and a pretty lousy volunteer if he did. I did a little research, admittedly quite light, but it looks like a sprinkler system in a library is not uncommon and not such a terrible thing; besides, there’s also loss of life to consider. ‘Perhaps she wanted to stop Hangfire’s plan to destroy the library. Perhaps she wanted to help the plan along.’ (p. 305) Ellington Feint is nominally working for Hangfire at this point. But she’s only ever been on her own side, and that makes her part difficult to survey. “That mean girl over there has destroyed the liberry!” (p. 305) From the fact that Stew said this, rather than taking the very easy way out and accusing Snicket, must indicate that he thinks Ellington is the bigger liability and threat.
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Post by Dante on Oct 7, 2019 15:55:22 GMT -5
This is the my final entry in the ?3 reread, and it's reasonably apparent at this point that nobody else is really rereading along with me; but as I actually have notes written up through to the end of ?4 (...and have had since before posting this thread), then I will be posting a reread thread for the final book in the series. I'll let this thread stand until it's been up for a full month, in case anyone else is able to contribute in a timely manner, and then post the last thread in the series.
Chapter Thirteen
“The Mitchums won’t let me see her in jail” (p. 312) You mean, the other end of the room?
“You can stay at the lighthouse for as long as you want” (p. 314) An arrangement which will make a plot point in ?4 somewhat absurd.
‘She’d always been a careful girl, so it was surprising that she had taken the risk to come and visit me.’ (p. 314) I suppose this line attempts to balance Josephine’s canonical statements that she’d always been so afraid with the reality of her inevitable membership of V.F.D. Perhaps more surprising is that she’s around Snicket’s age; she must have been prematurely aged by fear.
‘With the library soaked and closed, it was impossible to tape an article to the underside of a table. Now they had to be delivered in person.’ (p. 314) Snicket was in that library all the time, so it’s not clear to me that there would have been much of a difference.
“You might be smiling, Snicket, but your eyes are Mayday! Mayday!” (p. 314) The canonical Josephine would, I suspect, have words to say about this grammar.
‘He and his brother had spent a long time with me, hiding those books in an attic only reachable by a mechanized staircase, in a cupboard that was larger than it looked.’ (p. 316) Nonetheless, it doesn’t seem to have taken long to remove the equivalent number of books from the Wade Academy library, and exchange them for said books in the Stain’d-by-the-Sea library – all in plain sight. And for as big as that cupboard would need to be, it might as well have led to Narnia.
“We shouldn’t be seen together very often, and we should communicate as secretly as possible.” (p. 318) This strategy is a disaster.
“There hasn’t been a fire in weeks” (p. 319) You took your time with that non-victory party.
‘and reached her hand into my coat pocket’ (p. 321) I don’t usually like to say, but people make a lot of odd physical movements in ATWQ.
‘Josephine’s finger tapped the space behind Kit, where I recognized the two other people in the photograph for the first time.’ (p. 321) Gifford and Ghede’s positions here (plus Seth’s illustrations, though of dubious canonicity) imply that they are police officers; or rather, volunteers who have infiltrated the police department. It’s not too difficult to see, then, how they might have been in a position to help Kit, and how they might also have been in a position to make things worse.
“I’ve been a little lonely all my life […] I see no reason why it should stop at age thirteen.” (p. 323) My theory, based on this and page 289, is that Snicket turned thirteen at some point in this volume. But the opening lines to ?4 don’t back this up. I’m not sure why they don’t.
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Post by Hermes on Oct 7, 2019 17:36:15 GMT -5
I am reading, Dante, I just don't have time to write replies worthy of all the wealth of discussion you and Foxy have been creating. Please do not stop!
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Post by Carrie E. Abelabudite on Nov 7, 2019 22:54:05 GMT -5
This is the my final entry in the ?3 reread, and it's reasonably apparent at this point that nobody else is really rereading along with me; but as I actually have notes written up through to the end of ?4 (...and have had since before posting this thread), then I will be posting a reread thread for the final book in the series. I'll let this thread stand until it's been up for a full month, in case anyone else is able to contribute in a timely manner, and then post the last thread in the series. I'm sorry I've got so behind! I should have more time to post now. General NotesAs I said in the ?2 thread, I find that each book in the series improves on the previous one. I especially like that we actually get somewhat of a hint into the inner workings of VFD here. I like the ‘action shot’ element of the cover, though Ellington’s braids look a little weird. I have to say, I’m not a huge fan of the orange tinted illustrations. It just doesn’t look as nice as the first two books. Chapter One
The importance of Caviar: Salty Jewel of the Tasty Sea should probably be obvious based on the way Lemony describes it here, though I can’t remember how I reacted to this segment the first time I read the book. I’m not sure I’d think of ‘Dashiell Qwerty’ as ‘a tidy and proper name’. Now we find out Kit was arrested for breaking into the Museum of Items. More on this later. ‘“There are some new Italian dictionaries that I thought you might find interesting.”’ Does Qwerty know Hangfire’s plan? I think I said this in the ?1 thread, and I know as a ‘supervisor’, he’s meant to be letting Theodora and Lemony do the real work, but the idea that he knows what’s going on and isn’t doing more to stop it really puts his character in a negative light. The reminder of Moxie’s bandage is a really dark moment – with all the cartoonishness present in the series, sometimes you can forget just how real the stakes are. Moments like this really help emphasise that. Lemony’s reaction to thinking there’s a fire is very interesting. This must be the standard way VFD members are trained to react, and it’s the only real glimpse we get of this in any of the Snicket books. ‘“We don’t have time to fight over scraps.”’ Ha! Chapter Two
‘“Maybe you should send him a bunch of heart-shaped helium balloons just to let him know you’re thinking about him.”’ I wonder if Lemony has been to Heimlich hospital. The whole interaction with the old man feels really off. It should probably be possible to guess just from this that he’s Hangfire, though I don’t know if I did the first time I read this. Lemony’s description of how he knows the word ‘arson’ isn’t that ground-breaking on the face of it – of course a member of the Volunteer Fire Department would be taught what ‘arson’ means – but it’s another small insight into the VFD training program. It seems like they’re really teaching the kids this from the very beginning of their training. Sharon’s speech actually becomes more poignant once we know about Lizzie. Chapter Three
The ‘I’d rather not’ bit always makes me laugh. I love all the descriptions of the food Jake cooks. They always make me hungry. Chapter Four
When Sharon says ‘“The Italians call it limeade”’, I’m imagining her saying it with an Italian accent and pronouncing it ‘lee-ma-day’. Is it possible that Theodora already knows what’s going on and is just acting here in order to protect Lemony? It’s unlikely, I guess, though it does put her character in an interesting light. Why is Qwerty letting himself get arrested? I guess he wants to make sure he is exonerated of the fire to the schoolhouse, but why just let them set fire to it if he knows what the plan is? Chapter Five
‘I had seen buildings burn before, as part of my training and as part of my childhood.’ The more I hear about the VFD training program for kids, the more terrible it sounds. The idea that not leaving a fire unattended was the first thing Lemony learnt in VFD stresses just how important this is to the organisation, but again becomes very dark when you think about it. They didn’t even let him use the bathroom until he learnt this? ‘“Stain’d Secondary is the only school in town, Mr Snicket.”’ Surely they would have a school for younger kids, too. ‘“Safe places are getting scarcer and scarcer in Stain’d-by-the-Sea.”’ A nice nod to the destruction of VFD Safe Places in ASOUE. Though I’m not sure why it would be unsafe for Ornette to live at The Lost Arms. I love the illustration of Theodora and Sharon. ‘“If I don’t fix things,” I asked, “who will?”’ ATWQ Lemony seems like a very proactive person. By ASOUE, he appears to be too paralysed by his own fears and insecurities to be of much help to anyone anymore. But this seems to be true for a lot of VFD members, including adults we see in this series. Lemony’s description of the painting of the girl and the dog here sounds like a parallel to a way a lot of adults react to children in the Snicketverse. No matter what happens, they just don’t seem to care enough, or at least they can’t seem to transfer those feelings into actually being helpful. ‘I picked [the phonograph] up and turned it over and then saw a word, just one word stamped into the machine, right where the arm with the needle lay waiting to make the music play.’ The point at which Lemony figures out Hangfire’s true identity is debatable. But I’d argue it’s here. Chapter Six
How can you tell what someone’s nationality is just from looking at them? The Inhumane Society are willing to respect Theodora’s deal and let Lemony go free. Clearly they do have some sense of honour.
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Post by Dante on Nov 8, 2019 13:29:03 GMT -5
I like the ‘action shot’ element of the cover, though Ellington’s braids look a little weird. Are you reading the U.K. edition? On the U.S. editions, Ellington's silhouette's braids are rendered so simplistically that they resemble rabbit ears, but the U.K. editions render them more finely, probably because they blew up that particular segment of the original cover to be the sole illustration. Can't get tidier than the first row of letters on a keyboard. In my own notes, I also point it out as a problem that Harold Limetta's name is apparently invented on the spur of the moment - after this. So Qwerty appears to be precognitive. Maybe he's just taking extremely educated guesses and hitting the mark each time, but doesn't know for sure. I'm not sure I noticed this; good eye. I can't think she knows everything yet, but one does sense sometimes that she's rather in denial. The only way I can interpret Qwerty is as someone far too dedicated to his role as a passive observer. I guess all the primary-age kids grew into secondary-age and the primary school (and nursery, etc.) was closed; and no fresh children of younger than secondary age exist in Stain'd-by-the-Sea; exist who go to school, anyway (thinking of Squeak). Now that I've reread ?4, I recall that we get some potential context for the safety of the Lost Arms there. It's just to underline the point, I suppose.
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Post by Carrie E. Abelabudite on Nov 16, 2019 23:05:21 GMT -5
Chapter Seven
Theodora is at her most sympathetic and human here. It’s a really strong moment – we can still see her flaws, but we also realise that she is genuinely willing to make sacrifices in order to protect Lemony.
Now we see that Theodora really does know how she is ranked among the chaperones. Lemony’s reaction to this also makes him seem more humble than he has at other points in the series.
‘“Some of the bravest and most resourceful people in the world have come to bad ends,”’ A very unpleasant thought, but one that rings true nonetheless.
For a moment, it seems like Lemony and Theodora are coming to a real understanding, but then this is blown with his implying she is incompetent and untrustworthy. I like Lemony’s analysis of the conversation, though.
‘“We haven’t had anything [to eat] for almost three days,” Squeak said.’ Another really dark moment, although this doesn’t pertain to VFD training. It does put Hungry in kind of a terrible light, though.
Lemony’s bit about remembering the dishes as long as he lives always makes me smile.
‘“It’s hard when you’re missing your family,” Pip said, […] “You wake up every morning like someone took one of your legs.”’ Another realistic moment that truly brings home the plight of these children. Also, I wonder which family members he’s talking about. I always thought his father still lived with them, even if he was checked out most of the time, though I guess it’s possible he actually walked out. Or else he’s talking about his mother, or another sibling.
‘“I bet it’s no more difficult than learning to drive,”’ Something this book emphasises that I hadn’t noticed before is that VFD children aren’t the only ones who have been forced to grow up too soon. A lot of VFD members seem to think of themselves as being exceptional, but here we see that lots of people who haven’t officially been recruited can still have relevant skills.
Chapter Eight
Ellington must have re-dyed her hair black, because there’s no way it could have grown that much since the previous book.
None of Lemony’s anagram suggestions make sense as something you could use for a name. And come on, Ellington’s alias is way more believable that ‘Loney M. Setnick’.
‘People cry at silence or at violence, in a graveyard or a schoolyard.’ I love this sentence.
‘there was something wonderful about sitting together and sipping even the bitterest of beverages.’ This reminds me of the way horseradish is described in ASOUE.
‘There’s a knock on your bedroom window in the middle of the night, and when you look outside there’s someone just your age or maybe a little older, who says they need your help.’ Did this happen to Lemony? It sort of reminds me of what we hear of the VFD recruitment process from TUA. But this can’t be what literally happened to Lemony when he got recruited, because he presumably would have been young enough that whoever was recruiting him couldn’t have been the same age.
Interesting that Ellington recognises the VFD insignia right away. And that apparently she’s heard of the organisation. It’s especially a striking contrast to how long it takes the Baudelaires to figure this out.
IIRC, there’s some confusion/inconsistency with the location of the Beast sculpture throughout this book, but I’ve lost the thread of what happened to it in the previous book, where it isn’t featured as much.
Chapter Nine
The description of the sneaking instructor is another interesting, if somewhat disturbing, insight into the VFD training process.
‘At least half of the janitors you encounter in your life are working for the enemy.’ Huh. Sounds like Lemony is speaking from experience here.
‘“It takes a while to adjust to a new school,” I said, “but that’s no reason to take up smoking.”’ Of course, if you believe that Lemony is indeed the taxi driver in TPP, then he does indeed take up smoking as an adult.
It’s interesting that Kellar says his mother isn’t a very good cook, when earlier he said she liked cooking. I guess just because she likes it doesn’t mean she’s good at it, but now this is almost starting to seem like a Nero/violin or Carmelita/singing situation.
‘But some secrets are so strange and so dangerous that showing them to people makes the strangeness and the danger pour into their lives like dark, dark ink.’ I love this line.
It’s weird that so many people seem to be aware of the existence of VFD. I mean, I get that as an organisation, they are a lot more ‘together’ than what we see at the time of ASOUE. But you’d think a secret organisation would try a bit harder to remain secret.
Lemony’s speech, and Ellington frowning at it, is a powerful moment. Throughout this series, Lemony seems very aware of the problems with VFD, and he has a real desire to change it. Yet he still seems to have a very powerful – almost maybe dogmatic – belief in the organisation as a vehicle for good. This definitely wanes by the time of ASOUE, but so too does his drive to make it better. Also, this is the only reference to the schism in the entire series, and it isn’t even described as one big definitive thing.
Ellington looks kind of weird in this illustration. I think it’s the eyebrows – they definitely give her a ‘cartoon villain’ kind of vibe.
I like Lemony telling himself about how, if he were a fictional character, he would throw down the book in disgust. That’s definitely the kind of awareness an avid reader would have about themselves.
The description of the Beast here does seem to have the same mystical/awe-inspiring sense TGU induces in ASOUE.
Chapter Ten
I guess Lemony’s suggestion about Hangfire tricking them into thinking there’s a monster is fairly sensible, but it’s hard to see how he could have engineered such a thing.
Ellington asking when she will see her father again is a very poignant moment.
‘I can get shy in the roll of a dice.’ Rereading this, Lemony comes across as very manipulative here. I guess that’s what a childhood in VFD teaches you – that whatever mission you are undertaking always comes before any feelings you might have.
‘If you don’t know where you are, or where you want to go, a compass can only tell you what direction you’re facing.’ This reminds me a lot of the ‘moral compass’ discussion at the beginning of TE. Lemony is conflicted the way the Baudelaires are there. I think this conflict becomes even more intense if we assume he knows Hangfire’s identity here.
‘“Thanks for volunteering,”’ Mirrors what Violet says to Quigley in TSS. I guess this pinpoints the exact moment all of these characters join VFD.
Lemony’s crisis of consciousness here, where he tells everyone they can leave, feels important. I wonder if he had this same choice when he first joined VFD.
‘I’ve had it since I was a child.’ This, again, really hammers home just how many dangerous undertakings VFD asks of its child members.
Chapter Eleven
I love the description of Beethoven. It sounds like the kind of thing I’d have done with my siblings when I was younger!
‘It was no fun to play it by myself.’ A very sad moment. Lemony attempting to do this always feels heart-wrenching.
It’s interesting that Hangfire goes around asking people if they have any fire. This feels significant to VFD in some way, but it’s hard to think how, since mostly he just seems to use the question as a distraction.
‘“Don’t be sorry and don’t be dizzy. Be on the bus.”’ This line always makes me laugh.
‘“She wasn’t always like this, you know,” [Kellar] said.
“None of us were,” I said, and let him go.’ This seems like an explanation for the behaviour of Lemony and others of his generation at the time of ASOUE.
‘Someone made a bad noise, a wet cough of pain.’ Another very dark moment.
Chapter Twelve
Theodora’s speech here is a reminder that she truly does know more about the inner workings of VFD than Lemony – or the reader – ever will.
The line about Bertrand is always a laugh-out-loud moment for me.
It’s interesting to think that Olaf could have been a student at Wade Academy. He’s definitely a member of VFD by the time this series is taking place, so you’d assume he should have been recruited as a young child like Lemony, but maybe he only joined later.
Ellington asking “What else can I do?” feels very reminiscent of Olaf and the other characters in TPP.
‘“We have a moral compass, something inside ourselves that tells us the proper thing to do.”’ Lemony seems very sure about this here, a real contrast to the next book.
‘But the experiences I am chronicling here have left me with a permanent mark, like a bruise that never healed.’ It seems like a lot his inaction and fear we see in ASOUE stems directly from his experiences in Stain’d, which isn’t surprising, I guess. This line makes it seem like he’s writing a long time after the events happened. Also, I like the description of ‘good fires’ and the idea that ‘a match is only as wicked as the person who is using it.’ We see it’s not only the ‘wicked’ side of VFD who use fire as a weapon.
‘I did not know if Dashiell Qwerty had thought about the terrible effects of water when he had the sprinkler system installed,’ Seems like an important oversight if not, which seems out of character for Qwerty. Perhaps he anticipated that Lemony would do something like replace the books.
Chapter Thirteen
‘[Josephine had] always been a careful girl, so it was surprising that she had taken the risk to come and visit me.’ This is interesting since it contrasts both the Netflix and movie versions of Josephine, where she is depicted as having been brave and adventurous in her youth. It seems like book Josephine was always somewhat anxious and became more and more limited by this as she got older.
Lemony’s description of the ‘signal’ used to indicate somewhat has to leave always makes me laugh.
‘“Volunteer means volunteer,” I reminded her. “Anyone can join V.F.D.”’ This feels important, and definitely goes to explain how the Baudelaires and some of Olaf’s troupe can be members, even if they weren’t recruited as children.
‘“Anyone can be dangerous […] They just have to end up in the wrong circumstances.”’ This echoes Lemony’s descent into immorality that we see in the next book, as well as the Baudelaires’ journey throughout ASOUE.
It’s interesting that Josephine still uses the word ‘volunteer’ to describe Gifford and Ghede. Are they on the ’wicked’ side of the schism, which has not quite descended to the level of overt villainy that we see in ASOUE? It’s hard to say.
Lemony staying in Stain’d to help his friends rather than going to help Kit seems to put him on a moral high ground, above Ellington. We’ll see this idea inverted in the next book.
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Post by Dante on Nov 17, 2019 13:16:27 GMT -5
None of Lemony’s anagram suggestions make sense as something you could use for a name. And come on, Ellington’s alias is way more believable that ‘Loney M. Setnick’. Arguably, Loney M. Setnick isn't meant to fool anyone except the highly impressionable. My own recollection is that it's consistent; Ellington's just really convincing about it. My conclusion on this is that maybe they only relatively recently became secret. Probably for the best. That's more or less how we as fans have ended up interpreting events anyway. Perhaps V.F.D.'s enemies could have started employing such a code in order to distinguish one another. Or perhaps he just phrased it that way out of innate dislike for V.F.D. Perhaps it also underlines that she's on the villainous side here. Qwerty does appear to be more or less clairvoyant... My ultimate conclusion is that they're "the worst" because they're incompetent, not because they're necessarily bad people. They're like Theodora, the worst chaperone, in that respect.
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