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Post by Brian on Aug 21, 2005 16:52:10 GMT -5
I posted this recently on the IMDB message board for the ASOUE movie:
I love the books, but it seems like the past three or four have gotten worse and worse. They've gone from darkly and deliciously funny all of the time to ridiculously silly half the time and ridiculously sappy the other half.
I mean, come on, read the first and then read the eleventh. You'll see what I mean. The Count Olaf in Book the First was scary, sinister, and smart. I used to freak out a little bit when I read the early books and Olaf would make his appearance. The recent Count Olaf is too silly to be scary (come on, haha snaggle hee sniggle ho, ha ha jicama, tee hee troupe member? That's crap). He's being bossed around by Carmelita Spats. And so many characters have just become obnoxious. Remember Aunt Josephine? She was a ~good~ annoying. She was funny in her irrationality. But Captain Widdershins with his obnoxious dialogue is a ~bad~ annoying. An ~annoying~ annoying. Same with the new Carmelita Spats.
And then the sappiness. Sure, you always had those moments where the Baudelaires reflected over their sadness, and their loss of their parents but the survival of 'each other;' those are necessary, I agree. But they now happen twice as often, and they were never this sappy. Again, if you compare books one and two to books ten and eleven you'll see the difference.
For these reasons, I'm starting to care less about the characters. While I was upset over Uncle Monty and Aunt Josephine, I really wouldn't mind if Olaf took a knife and stuck Widdershins with it. I would even welcome it. I would even have been shaken up if Sir had died, cruel though he was. But seven books later, everybody just annoys me. I wouldn't even mind as much if Olaf struck Klaus across the face and he didn't get back up this time. But of course, that would just lead to more sappiness. I'm not saying I don't like emotion, but sappiness is totally unnecessary in A Series of Unfortunate Events - if anything, it ruins the books.
As I read The Grim Grotto, I wondered...is Daniel Handler trying to make Count Olaf more like Carrey's portrayal? Is he trying to add the extra sappiness because that's the way it was in the movie? Because, if so, that's totally the wrong direction to take. I'm not going to start an argument about the movie being true to the books or not, but you will probably agree with me on this: the movie was half-silly, half-sappy like the later books, not consistently darkly funny like the early books. The movie may have been good (I'm not going to give my opinion on it again) but it certainly didn't have the mood that gave the early books so many wonderful qualities.
I'm going to read books twelve and thirteen, but only to find out all of the answers to the series. I may even enjoy reading them, though definately not as much as I enjoyed (or still enjoy) books one through seven. I will say that Daniel Handler is still a genius, and that even his recent books were still dangerously witty and clever in the narration. But I ask all of you to read my post, evaluate my opinion, and respond with your own. And please, please, back up your opinions with reasons/evidence.
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Antenora
Detriment Deleter
Fiendish Philologist
Put down that harpoon gun, in the name of these wonderful birds!
Posts: 15,891
Likes: 113
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Post by Antenora on Aug 21, 2005 17:04:08 GMT -5
Personally, I think the later books are better because they're more interesting and complex, and the plots are less repetitive. We see a lot more character development. There are some very sentimental scenes, but I don't think they're eccessively sappy.
However, I agree with some of your statements. Olaf's annoying in TGG, and so are Fiona and Widdershins.
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Post by s on Aug 21, 2005 17:35:44 GMT -5
I agree that the later books are missing some of the darkness that made the first few so enjoyable. And I dislike the change in Olaf's character. However, that's not to say they're not good, because I still love them. The Slippery Slope was excellent. In fact, the only book that I had a problem with was The Grim Grotto. I found it to be far too silly, what with the Aye!s and Ha ha jicama!s and other such nonsense. I think Handler needs to reread the first four books or so, and try to get back into the same mode he was in when he was writing those, but add in more plot variation and character development...I think the series is drifting a little too far from what it was originally intended to be. However, I still love the series, and am most certainly to continue reading it obsessively.
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Post by selina on Aug 21, 2005 18:18:09 GMT -5
yeah the books are alot less unfortunate, it's like the next book could be the "littlest elf". But any way i still wouldn't want my life like theirs
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BbaLLsTaR81
Catastrophic Captain
We're Very Concerned.
Posts: 54
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Post by BbaLLsTaR81 on Aug 21, 2005 18:44:19 GMT -5
I don't think the book are going downhill at all. Maybe I am just a bit too fanatic about them, but I don't see anything wrong in them.
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Post by Master Of The Dark on Aug 21, 2005 19:19:38 GMT -5
Aye! The book are great! Aye! I don't see why you don't like them! Aye! Especially the latter books! Aye! Because we're slowly learning the secrets we've been yearning for! Aye! The books are getting more interesting! Aye! And what is youi problem with Widdershins? Aye?
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Post by Hooky on Aug 21, 2005 20:55:57 GMT -5
I have been waiting for a thread that mentions the problems in The Grim Grotto. At first I liked it, mainly because I had been waiting ridiculously long for it to be released. But Widdershins...UGH. No real-life person would be so dumb as to say "Aye!" after every sentence. They could just have him say it every so often, and he would then seem more like a submarine captain, and more like a responsible adult.
The same applies to Olaf. I remember too, Brian, the "good old days," if you will, when Olaf would be a sinister figure that I would be afraid to have met. But he has totally changed throughout books 10 and 11 to become much more ridiculous and pathetic, rather than someone that any group of orphaned children should be afraid of. I can't believe the Baudelaires could still be afraid of him by now. Handler, if you are reading this, I beg you to have Olaf drop the stupid laugh, PLEASE. And PLEASE make him more sinister and scary like he was in the first nine books.
Yes, I did like The Grim Grotto, and all the stuff we learned about V.F.D. in it, but I liked The Slippery Slope more, and I hope Book the Twelfth will be the best yet.
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Post by lauren on Aug 22, 2005 0:44:29 GMT -5
gasp* wow...you should be an essay writer...if there is such a proffession...i agree with you about the silly count olaf, he's turning into a bit of a joke, i mean a little randomness, out of the blueness, doesn't hurt anyone but to turn this sinisterly dark character with a witty sense of humour into this foolish man...it is just abominal ...it is a bit sappy...I like crying when i read these books but sappy is not the same as tragic
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Post by PJ on Aug 22, 2005 1:38:48 GMT -5
Eh, the only thing I agree with you on the Olaf thing, his laugh in TGG was plain stupid, but, as for everything else, I think the books are getting better and better. It is getting more complex and interesting, and the ? beast was a dark addition.
But yeah, Olaf needs to become more evil.
And Widdershins was cool.
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Post by nocuousnovelist on Aug 22, 2005 2:24:04 GMT -5
Like many evil things, the longer you are in it's company, you learn it's quirks. You become more familiar with it and it loses some of it's darkness. I agree that Olaf has changed. Reading "the laugh" was painful. Widdershins-painful. But it seems like Daniel Handler shows his characters with an excess of somekind. (i.e., Mr. Poe -coughing, Aunt Josephine -irrational fears, even the Baudelairs- Inventing, Reading, Biting.) Edit: I like the later books because of the developing characters. More depth in the storyline. They are more interesting to read now that I have the basics of the story and now, I want to find out what is coming next.
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Post by lauren on Aug 22, 2005 3:00:19 GMT -5
I agree PJ...Widdershin is cool... by the way my previous comment was targeted towards books 10 and 11...book 9 rocks
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Post by Brian on Aug 22, 2005 6:55:49 GMT -5
Thanks very much, everybody, for your responses. I'm amazed at how many people agree with at least one of my major points - and how nobody was uncivil to me (you would not believe some of these other message boards; "HOW COULD U HATE TH BOOKS U SUKK UR DUMB!" would be a typical response).
I can see how you could say there's more character development with what I call the newfound "sappiness." In fact, I agree with you. We do see more of a third dimension in the characters of the Baudelaire orphans and even of Mr. Poe during the last few pages. However, that does not come in Handler's works without that drama. Call it a give and take. I would rather have the older slightly (~slightly~, mind you) shallower characters than that drama/sappiness. If you would rather be reading the opposite, all power to you. That's a simple matter of personal preference. However, I think that lauren's message had a fundamentally crucial quote: "sappy is not the same as tragic." The sadness and emotion of the ~earlier~ books is as far as they need to go, in my opinion.
And I'm thrilled that all of you generally agreed with my major point, about the books getting lighter, sillier, and less frightening (e.g. Olaf.) Thanks again for the civil, constructive responses.
Keep writing! ~Brian
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Post by Flaneur on Aug 22, 2005 7:08:48 GMT -5
I don't think the books are going downhill at all. Sure, there are more emotional scenes, and the annoying characters really seem to annoy people now - but as others have said, this is in part due to familiarity with it all.
These books have completely turned around since the beginning. In the beginning of the series, you couldn't say there was really a point to it all. It really was all about the dark-humorous amalgamation of the books' tone. I found the original books to be slightly repetitive, and while amusing and tragic, a bit lacking in fulfillment. I didn't really start caring about the series until around book the fifth - the first turning point for the series. This was when V.F.D. was introduced, and since then, that's what these books have been about. Originally, the writing style was everything, it was what the books were all about. Now there is a core to the story, a mystery to solve, a point. It's the other things which are filler. The books are getting slightly fluffier, it's true. But I, for one, with all my sentimentality and my attachment to the undercurrent of V.F.D. which has now escalated into the driving tide, would much prefer a little silliness and nondark with an utterly compelling point of mystery and a connecting plot than book after book of completely amusing but unfulfilling and repetitive sadness.
In conclusion: the first books were almost totally different to the new books. Had the series continued in that vein, without introducing V.F.D. and all the accompanying developement, it certainly wouldn't have been as sappy, but I don't think any of us would care as much as we do.
Plus, I think the first books were pretty sappy too. Look at the end of The Reptile Room!
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Post by Brian on Aug 22, 2005 8:44:06 GMT -5
I agree that the series wouldn't have gone anywhere without a mystery, but the series could definitely have kept up the mystery without the sappiness and ESPECIALLY without the silliness. I mean, the whole nature of the mystery is dark, so the VFD plot isn't the reason Count Olaf has become annoying rather than frightening. Therefore, the books could have kept that beautiful dark, satirical, frightening yet humorous (not silly) tone and still lost their repetitiveness by adding the VFD plot.
Also, I think that the tragedy and emotion in the earlier books is different from the sappy drama of the later books.
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Post by Sugary Snicket on Aug 22, 2005 8:56:10 GMT -5
Olaf HAS gotten a tad too silly. The first time I read TBB, I had nightmares about him, but now it's like, Come on, Handler! Where is the menacing villain we love to hate? Where's the I'm-gonna-kill-those-orphans-if-it's-the-last-thing-I-do-Ness? What happened?
And Widdershins was annoying.
The sad scenes were not sappy, not to me. A lot of them made me get teary-eyed. Especially the end ones. And the plot is a lot more complex in the newer ones. Maybe if Handler combines the tragedy and misery of the first few with the complexness of the newer ones for book twelve, he might just have a hit.
It's like it's gone from "A Series of Unfortunate Events" to "A Series of Mysterious Events".
And, Mr. Handler, if you happen to be reading this, PLEASE PLEASE Drop the Olaf laugh. It was terrible, and not in the way we've come to expect. PLEASE don't carry it over to The twelfth book. Please.
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