|
Post by Master Of The Dark on Aug 22, 2005 12:07:50 GMT -5
Well....Olaf is less scary because he's tired of the Baudelaires foiling his plans at every turn. he just wants this to be over, to destroy the evidence, and become rich.
But Olaf is still evil. He forced children to tire themselves in difficult labor. He considered throwing orphans into the brig and releasing the mycelium. And in book 10, without remorse, ordered to have an infant thrown off a mountain.
|
|
|
Post by Brian on Aug 22, 2005 19:04:20 GMT -5
Sure, we can still ~technically~ call Olaf the bad guy. But Violet was right - he just isn't scary anymore! It's not that he has the Snow Scouts row his submarine, it's not his acts, it's the way he speaks, including that obnoxious laugh. Take his quote from The Slippery Slope as an example: "I'm beginning to think that washing my face today was a complete waste of time!" or something very similar. I've always liked the unhygenic aspect of Olaf's character. It's not the hygiene (or lack thereof) that makes him less scary. It's simply the silliness of that comment. "I'm tickled pinker than a sunburned Caucasian!" isn't frightening in the least.
What's frightening is what he said in The Reptile Room: "Dear me, dear me. If I wanted to harm ~you~, orphan, your blood would already be pouring down these stairs like a waterfall." Or from the same book: "This is my knife. It is very sharp and very eager to hurt you- almost as eager as I am. If you don't do what I say, you will suffer bodily harm. Is that clear enough for you? Now, get in the damn jeep."
That's the Olaf I want back, not the one intimidated by Carmelita Spats, a character equally as annoying and ridiculous in the past two books (less so in The Austere Academy). I want to hate him again, to be frightened, to have the Baudelaires' fears be justified. You can't be frightened of somebody who uses exclamation points after every sentence and laughs like 'ha ha jicama.'
|
|
|
Post by s on Aug 22, 2005 21:54:29 GMT -5
Yes. I couldn't have put it better myself. In fact, Olaf's out-of-characterness is really the only thing I actually dislike, persay, about TGG.
|
|
|
Post by Sugary Snicket on Aug 23, 2005 7:38:00 GMT -5
Sure, we can still ~technically~ call Olaf the bad guy. But Violet was right - he just isn't scary anymore! He's becoming more like the Jim Carrey Olaf. Where is the evil monster we love to hate? That was too funny for Olaf. He's not as threatening. I want the old Olaf back; the one we all feared; the one from TBB and TRR. That was so annoying. He needs to be frightening, not annoying. Now, that frightened me. It was almost as if he were speaking to ME, it was so scary. Back then, the Baudelaires' fear was rational. Now, it's about as irrational as Aunt Josephine's fear of realators. I want him back, too. Carmelita shouldn't even be IN these books. Esme's fine. She actually kinda freaks me out. But Carmelita? No. I'm just annoyed by her and I hate her. Like I've said already, where is the villain we've come to know and love? After all,
|
|
|
Post by Brian on Aug 23, 2005 7:54:53 GMT -5
Thank you for your agreement!
|
|
|
Post by LargeManFeOrMale on Aug 23, 2005 17:45:05 GMT -5
Olaf needs to ditch the Laugh. Sunny needs to ditch the cooking. Snicket needs to ditch Carmelita.
Thankfully Esme has stayed true to The Ertzats Elevator. . .
|
|
aropeofsand
Bewildered Beginner
A Curious Beast
Posts: 8
|
Post by aropeofsand on Aug 23, 2005 17:47:23 GMT -5
Hmm. I think I agree most with Flaneur.
When I read the first couple of books, I read them for the writing style. Lemony has a terribly funny prose, it is a wicked parody of other children's stories which condescend the reader, and it is a funny satire of gothic novels. It's fun to pick out literary refrences, and it is fun to read Lemony's interjections about his own miserable life.
True, Olaf does get a little goofier as the series progresses. But are you guys forgetting the complete silliness that was Shirley in book the fourth? Or the next book where he made them run laps. Both of these are very detatched from Stefano threatening the children with that knife. Regardless, Olaf always was a silly person, which doesn't mean he isn't ruthless, villanous, murderous, or any of those things. The series has always had laughs at his expense. I htink it stands to reason that Olaf would be his silliest when things are going his way like in Grim Grotto.
Still, if the books have gotten less scary, perhaps it is because they've detatched themselves from any relatable situation. It's easy to imagine someone living in your house threatening to kill your guardian. It's easy to imagine what it would be like if someone close to you acted like htey didn't know you such as Klaus, hypnotized, in Miserable Mill. But it's a lot harder to imagine someone infested with fungus inside an octopus-shaped submarine.
|
|
|
Post by selina on Aug 23, 2005 19:06:40 GMT -5
yes i agree. The laugh was stupid. Olaf wouldn't do that. Evem if he did it would be more likr Mua-ha-ha-ha. I still love ASOUE but the books are getting strange. I can't wait to see what the next one is going to be like.
I made a petition to send to mr. snicket. please sign it: http://www.pet...iononline.com/olafback/petition.html thanks
|
|
|
Post by Brian on Aug 23, 2005 20:58:54 GMT -5
A petition - that's a very good idea! Thanks for taking action, Selina.
And to aropeofsand - you bring up some very good points. I am truly captivated by your conjectures on having to relate to the situation. The more I think about that, the more I can accept that as truth. The situations have gotten more and more ridiculous as the series has progresses. I mean, who knows what it is like to be discriminated against as a two-headed person, or to ride a toboggan down a river full of rapids? Also, You said:
"When I read the first couple of books, I read them for the writing style. Lemony has a terribly funny prose, it is a wicked parody of other children's stories which condescend the reader, and it is a funny satire of gothic novels. It's fun to pick out literary refrences, and it is fun to read Lemony's interjections about his own miserable life."
I couldn't agree more. This is exactly why I picked up the series. But this is only half of it - not only is there a certain sadness and despair, there is fright. You love to hate Olaf and his cronies. That is important, and that is what is lacking in the more recent books.
I do, however, have to disagree on one point. The silliness of Shirley and Coach Genghis still seems to be much different than the silliness of Olaf in Book the Eleventh. Sure, Shirley was an absurd disguise. But even though you wanted to laugh, you knew while reading that passage that behind the mask was a villain so intensely evil...if anything, Shirley added ever more fright to Olaf. She showed his unstoppable determination to get that fortune and kill the Baudelaires, and his craziness. Not his silly "ha ha jicama" craziness, his generally sadistic, not-well-in-the-head craziness. You fear a cross-dressing Olaf like you fear an antisocial psychopath. And as for Coach Genghis making the Baudelaires run laps, that added confusion, again contributing to fright on both the parts of the Buadelaires and the reader. Olaf in Book the Eleventh may be a little crazy, but it's a Jim Carrey crazy. Olaf isn't a psychopath in The Grim Grotto, he's just on caffiene. There is a strict difference, and that I believe is the difference in Olaf's character that dissatisfies me.
|
|
aropeofsand
Bewildered Beginner
A Curious Beast
Posts: 8
|
Post by aropeofsand on Aug 24, 2005 2:28:47 GMT -5
Brian: Yeah, I do agree with you on that. Shirley (as well as that other stuff mentioned) is VERY different from that laugh in the last book, which was admittably annoying at times. However, other than the laugh, I don't think Olaf was THAT bad in the last book. And I do agree with you on the fright thing, especially as I think about it more. Especially considering I usually enjoyed the scarrier moments a lot more than some of the drearier moments. (The miserable mill can be overwhelmingly miserable at times, for example.)
I bet Daniel Handler is just trying to have some fun with Olaf in the last book, but has miscalculated how an audience would react to the laugh. I would bet money Olaf isn't going to laugh like that at that frequency in the last two books. But I would say that Olaf IS falling apart in these books. He's terrified of the newly introduced man with a beard/woman with hair. His girlfriend seems to be working on his nerves, but most prominantly, Carmelita Spats is making things miserable for him. Olaf is not in the best of form, and I think it is very intentional that he would be less scary as a result of this.
Because of this, though, I don't think a petition is very appropriate. I wouldn't want to tell Handler how he should write a book, especially his last one in the series (since book 12 is probably edited and gift wrapped for the publishers by now.) Yes, Olaf is getting less scary. I don't think its an accident. And because of this, I think we should just read and see what happens.
And really, I doubt Olaf is going to be THAT scary again. It's more than likely there will be some kind of "show down," in which case Handler will do all he can to make Olaf frightening again. And it seems even more likely at this point that there will be an up-close conflict with the man with a beard/woman with hair, which I'm sure Handler will do all he can to make terrifying. But I don't fear for the series just because Grim Grotto was a weak link.
|
|
Antenora
Detriment Deleter
Fiendish Philologist
Put down that harpoon gun, in the name of these wonderful birds!
Posts: 15,891
Likes: 113
|
Post by Antenora on Aug 24, 2005 7:09:24 GMT -5
I agree; Olaf's gotten entirely too crazy lately, and in the wrong way. I think the biggest problem with the later books is that Handler takes jokes to excess, to the point where they get annoying. He's going too over-the-top, and it's sometimes funny, but it detracts from the sense of fear and despair.
Hopefully, Olaf will be back to his old self in the last two books, or at least we'll regain that sense of menace somehow.
|
|
|
Post by PJ on Aug 24, 2005 7:19:58 GMT -5
Actually, Olaf was never really as menacing as he was in TRR. The blood waterfall, the constant threatening with the knife, that is the height of his menace, I think. Pushing Josephine into the water was also evil...but then he kinda mellowed out.
Though the people getting eaten alive by lions in TCC was plenty dark and gruesome....
|
|
|
Post by Brian on Aug 24, 2005 8:27:06 GMT -5
Valentin: That's true. I liked The Reptile Room a lot for that very reason.
Antenora: It's interesting that you feel the biggest problem is in the narration. I can see where you get that from, but I can't say that the narration has really changed ~that~ much since the earlier books.
ARopeOfSand: Fair enough. I suppose I forgot to do something crucial to my enjoyment of the books, which is to trust Mr. Handler as an artist and an entertainer. Heck, he did such a good job with the first 5 or 6 - it's got to be near impossible to keep up the momentum for an entire thirteen book series. All I can say is, I hope that the thirteenth book is a climax worthy of the entire series.
Again, thanks to everybody for their invaluable contributions to this thread.
|
|
|
Post by Sugary Snicket on Aug 24, 2005 10:23:50 GMT -5
A petition - that's a very good idea! Thanks for taking action, Selina. That's a very good idea! *Goes to sign petition* Exactly. It's not a typical circumstance that one would find oneself in. But because the Baudelaires have such out-of-the-ordinary lives, they endure out-of-the-ordinary circumstances. This is a high part of the series; it's candy for the reader. The series is a feast for the eyes and mind. And I've always loved parodies. Olaf timeline: TBB-TRR: Nightmares, TWW-TAA: Scary, TEE-THH: Nightmares, again, TCC: Creepy, and slightly annoying, TSS-TGG: Annoying. Please see my handy Olaf behavior chart above this quote for more info. Cross-dressing and villainy is always scary. That part kept me on tenterhooks, a phrase which here means "I was kept on the edge of my seat and couldn't help but read the entire book in one day." Villain as psychopath: Give you nightmares. Villain on caffiene: Scary, but not in the horror villain way. I couldn't agree more. And I'm glad you liked my comments on your last post.
|
|
Antenora
Detriment Deleter
Fiendish Philologist
Put down that harpoon gun, in the name of these wonderful birds!
Posts: 15,891
Likes: 113
|
Post by Antenora on Aug 24, 2005 11:12:34 GMT -5
Actually, I don't think the narration in the later books is that annoying, although it's sometimes more "gimmicky", with things like the repeated "STOP"s in THH. I was thinking more of the dialogue, particularly Olaf's laughter. However, Olaf's excessive silliness didn't ruin TGG for me; I enjoyed that book greatly despite the annoying-ness of some characters.
|
|