|
Post by lampy on Sept 18, 2005 14:40:57 GMT -5
[glow=red,2,300][shadow=blue,left,300]I am savoring this moment forever. some one agrees with me ;D[/shadow][/glow] HAHAHAHHAHAAHAHAHAHAA. Sorry, Celinra, had to be done. I also find it offensive that as soon as Christianity is mentioned, everyone swarms around and starts making fun of it. I try to be respectful of all your religions, even though I don't agree with them, is it too much to ask that you be respectful of mine? I'm not making fun of christianity, I'm making fun of Nina for trying to find traces of religion were there is little or none. I mean, honestly. If you make a parralel to the ring, and sin, I might as well make a parable to any evil creature that ever existed and sin. You can't just destroy sin. It's not possible. Well, not unless you're god, or something. And a lot of people would condemn you for connecting a wizard to Jesus. [glow=red,2,300][shadow=blue,left,300]first of all making fun of me won't work. and second there is traces of christainty in LOTR. thats not what the whole story is about but there is traces of it.[/shadow][/glow]
|
|
|
Post by Charles Vane on Sept 18, 2005 16:47:47 GMT -5
Pandora is tried of it too. I'm tired of this all picking on people just because you can get away with it crap. Consider everyone who was being a jerk in this thread warned.
|
|
|
Post by Jacques the Environmentalist on Sept 18, 2005 19:35:08 GMT -5
yes there is lots of traces about it I swear there is! Yeah, quit making fun of Christianity. Point out references to it in lotr and whatever but don't make fun of it or I'll get angry and stuff. And yeah, you can't just say the ring represents sin... Because it doesn't. It's just an evil talisman and doesn't have to stand for anything. And gandalf being jesus... no. If you knew gandalf's full history and whatnot it's completely different. Read the silmarillion and come back to me with more references.
|
|
|
Post by lampy on Sept 18, 2005 19:37:26 GMT -5
[glow=red,2,300][shadow=blue,left,300]I didn't say he was Jesus I said somthing he did reminded me of that story.[/shadow][/glow]
|
|
|
Post by Celinra on Sept 18, 2005 21:25:33 GMT -5
I'm not making fun of christianity, I'm making fun of Nina for trying to find traces of religion were there is little or none. ...except that, as I said, it is Christian-based, there are various sources that reveal this. So, there was really no reason for the sarcasm at the start. As I explained earlier, it's more thematic (so the ring does not equal sin, you're right about that much), but it is there. So, based on just the initial post (which is all that was there when you made your sarcastic post), there was no reason to find it lacking in intelligence. Just because people tend to get overenthusiastic with interpreting symbolism once they learn that a book is Christian-based, doesn't mean that there are no Christian elements in the book. You really shouldn't just immediately dismiss everything, and assume that it's 100% wrong so you can make fun of it.
|
|
|
Post by BSam on Sept 18, 2005 23:53:53 GMT -5
One work of fiction referencing another, happens all the time.
;D
|
|
|
Post by PJ on Sept 19, 2005 2:32:22 GMT -5
I'm not making fun of christianity, I'm making fun of Nina for trying to find traces of religion were there is little or none. ...except that, as I said, it is Christian-based, there are various sources that reveal this. So, there was really no reason for the sarcasm at the start. As I explained earlier, it's more thematic (so the ring does not equal sin, you're right about that much), but it is there. So, based on just the initial post (which is all that was there when you made your sarcastic post), there was no reason to find it lacking in intelligence. Just because people tend to get overenthusiastic with interpreting symbolism once they learn that a book is Christian-based, doesn't mean that there are no Christian elements in the book. You really shouldn't just immediately dismiss everything, and assume that it's 100% wrong so you can make fun of it. Well, I can't find any christianity in it. Well, nothing big, at least, which is why I think Nina's statement was ridiculous. If you bring me something which you think references religion, then say so, and we can discuss it. But so far, all I've seen is some people claiming there is some, whilst they haven't presented any. So far, the most valid argument is the one that Gandalf represents Jesus, and ONLY because they both came back to life. Their reasons for doing so are entirely different, which is why I'm pretty sceptical about it.
|
|
|
Post by Celinra on Sept 19, 2005 5:48:30 GMT -5
Very well, tonight I'll check out the book from the library in which I originally learned that LOTR is Christian-based, so that anything I say will actually be accurate (which is the reason I've been quiet on the subject, because I know if I mis-say one little thing, everyone will take the chance to jump on me like a pack of wolves, because that's how it always happens on this forum).
In the meantime, I did mention an example in my first post. Thanks for actually paying attention to what I said.
As for "nothing big," that may be right... as I already said, Tolkien wanted books that were Christian based, but not beating people over the head with it, so of course it's not going to be huge. I don't see why that fact makes it any less valid, though.
|
|
|
Post by Charles Vane on Sept 19, 2005 7:12:23 GMT -5
Yeah I have to say Celinra wins big here. You were rude and arrogant, she's come up with a solid arguement with a few examples and then you ignored that. You're not giving a good impression of yourself in this thread.
|
|
|
Post by PJ on Sept 19, 2005 7:29:02 GMT -5
In the meantime, I did mention an example in my first post. Thanks for actually paying attention to what I said. Oh. Right, sorry. I hadn't checked this thread in a while, and when I did, I kinda skimmed over the first few posts. Frodo showed compassion to Gollum? Eh, I dunno. Seems kinda dodgy. I mean, don't most religions say you should have compassion for most people? I mean, just because a character does something moral, doesn't mean it's a christian allegory. But ok, I see your point, perhaps it was meant this way. I recall Gandalf saying that Gollum would play some role in things before the end....perhaps this influenced Frodo's decision. Honestly, though. My first post contained sarcasm, sure. After that I rationally told you guys that I didn't think there was any christian allegories in Lotr, then you told me there was, then I asked for examples. Then I saw that Celinra had given the Frodo example, and I agreed that it has some christian ties. Disregarding my first post, I was pretty nice. Oh, and I laughed. Nina said something I thought was ridiculous. So since when does one get punished for being sarcastic? The rules say unwarranted rudeness is punishable. I thought Nina's idea was pretty stupid, at first, so I used sarcasm. If that's unwarranted rudeness, then you may as well ban half of the forum this instant.
|
|
|
Post by Ennui on Sept 19, 2005 7:38:27 GMT -5
As it happens, I think "Christian-based" is far wide of the mark. It implies unsubtle allegory of the Narnian sort, which Tollers was contemptuous of (me, I like Narnia, but the allegory does frequently get absurd...)
What is true is that they contain Christian elements. How could they not? For a writer as devout as Tolkien, his religion was bound to form a portion of his imagination's domain. This means that imagery, that associations, that moral lessons work their way in; Tolkien is espousing a certain kind of morality, and as he is a Christian, it will be a Christian (specifically Roman Catholic) morality. There is, in other words, some overlap (Galadriel a bit Virginesque, Frodo's sacrifice, Frodo's compassion...).
But there is not, not, a basis. Tolkien is aware that that would cheapen his work and make it distasteful. There ain't no red cross on Arwen's banner.
So to post a thread saying "heyyy guyz did u know lotr was christain-based" is asking for a bit of mockery, frankly.
|
|
|
Post by PJ on Sept 19, 2005 7:45:30 GMT -5
As it happens, I think "Christian-based" is far wide of the mark. It implies unsubtle allegory of the Narnian sort, which Tollers was contemptuous of (me, I like Narnia, but the allegory does frequently get absurd...) What is true is that they contain Christian elements. How could they not? For a writer as devout as Tolkien, his religion was bound to form a portion of his imagination's domain. This means that imagery, that associations, that moral lessons work their way in; Tolkien is espousing a certain kind of morality, and as he is a Christian, it will be a Christian (specifically Roman Catholic) morality. There is, in other words, some overlap (Galadriel a bit Virginesque, Frodo's sacrifice, Frodo's compassion...). But there is not, not, a basis. Tolkien is aware that that would cheapen his work and make it distasteful. There ain't no red cross on Arwen's banner. So to post a thread saying "heyyy guyz did u know lotr was christain-based" is asking for a bit of mockery, frankly. My point exactly. If someone says it like Ennui did, or even if it was done in a much simpler form like : "Hey, I just read an article that claims Lotr has some christian elements, for instance: BlaBlaBla" I would have no problem. I'd probably reply with "Eh, I dunno, that seems a bit far-fetched." and then we'd debate about it. But Nina just appears, and claims something that at first seems absolutely ridiculous, without stating how she figured this out, or giving any examples at all. It's like some drunk at a party comes up to you and tries to kiss you; you either give him a shove, or slap him. Does this instantly mean the police jail you for assault?
|
|
|
Post by Celinra on Sept 19, 2005 8:55:43 GMT -5
Alright, I see your point there.
But anyways, enough bickering, and on to debating. I was able to get the book where I learned this stuff from the downtown library, so here it is.
I apologize for any typos in the following... it got very long, and my arms were very tired by the end.
All this is taken from "The Magical Worlds Of the Lord Of the Rings," by David Colbert.
***** "Do Hobbits Believe In God?"
With all the great forces at work in the battle over the Ring, you might wonder why Frodo never prays for help from the most powerful force of all. In fact, there's almost no prayer or other ritual in LOTR. You could read the entire book and wonder whether Tolkien or his creatures believed in God. But without a doubt, there's a lot of religion in LOTR. Tolkien says it is "a fundamentally religious and Catholic work" (The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien edited by H. Carpenter with C. Tolkien, 172). So why doesn't anyone ask for God's help to defeat Sauron?
Tolkien wanted the book to show religion, rather than talk about it. When Frodo is merciful to Gollum, despite every temptation to act otherwise, he shows Tolkien's belief in compassion and forgiveness. When Frodo presses on towards Mount Doom despite nagging worries, he shows Tolkien's belief in trusting a divine plan. Other characters display the same qualities and face the same tests.
Major themes also show religious ideas. The pain and regret Elves feel because they have to live forever shows that, in Tolkien's view, humans are lucky to be free from that worry. When Melkor and Sauron try to act like gods in Middle-earth, they always fall short of actually creating something original, and have to deform something made by God, such as when they make Orcs out of Elves. Only the one God, Iluvatar, can create.
Tolkien's religion influences every page of LOTR. If you don't notice it, don't worry: that's just what Tolkien intended. He wanted to be subtle. He even built the lack of religious ceremony into the plot. The humans of Gondor avoid religion because they are afraid to repeat their early error of worshipping Sauron.
Humans and hobbits may not know Iluvatar, God of Middle-earth; but in Tolkien's view, Middle-earth is very much his.
***** "What did Tolkien see in Galadriel?"
...Tolkien, a devout Catholic, also gave Galadrial qualities of a particular mother who was important to him: the Blessed Virgin Mary, mother of Jesus Christ. Mary symbolized for Tolkien the same things that Galadriel offers Frodo and his companions: divine compassion and wisdom. She returns their devotion with her own. "(T)he Lady Galadriel is above all the jewels that lie beneath the earth," says Gimli, who has been moved to tears by her decency (The Lord of the Rings by J.R.R. Tolkien, 347).
Galadriel wasn't the first Mary figure Tolkien created for his Middle-earth. In his original legends (later collected into The Silmarillion), that role belongs to Varda, one of the most powerful of the Valar, the angelic spirits who shape Middle-earth (Varda is the character who is being called for help when the characters say "A Elbereth Gilthoniel!") In fact, Elves rever Varda the way Galadriel is revered by Gimli and Frodo. But Tolkien wanted all the Valar to stay out of the action of LOTR as much as possible--even Varda. So Galadriel's part grew until she took on the Mary role. It's interesting that even with Varda out of the story Tolkien's instincts led him to give the Fellowship a mother figure.
The Virgin Mary was an important influence on Tolkien's creation of Galadriel, but only one. The story of a different Bible character named Mary reveals another essential detail of Galadriel's character.
Galadriel regrets having rebelled against the Valar as a youth, and her feelings are important to the story: if she still felt rebellious, she mihgt want to keep the Ring when Frodo offers it to her, because it would make her very powerful. (In fact, she knows that she risks a lot by refusing it. If Frodo destroys it, her own Ring will lose its power, and her safe haven for the Elves will disappear. If he doesn't, Sauron might win it back, which would be worse. Either way, her refusal of the Ring is a sacrifice.) Tolkien called her a "penitent"--a term in Catholicism for those who regret their sins (The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien editied by H. Carpenter with C. Tolkien, 407). She is like a famous penitent in the Bible, Mary Magdalene, a sinner who came to accept Christ and accompanied him in his final days. And like Mary Magdalene, Galadriel is forgiven by the Valar when they see she refuses Frodo's offer.
***** "What's the worst thing about Sauron?"
Looking at houw Sauron treats Middle-earth, it is easy to think he simply enjoys bossing people around, or destroying what Iluvatar, the God of Middle-earth, has created. But these aren't the worst things about him, in Tolkien's view. They are just signs of something worse.
Sauron thinks he's special because he has a broader collection of talents than the other spirits created by Iluvatar. While most of them have only one or two parts of Iluvatar's character in their personality, Sauron has a little bit of every part. He's proud of that, which is a mistake. He seems to forget that all those talents are gifts from Iluvatar, whose own are greater still. Because of his pride, he goes too far. He tries to play God.
Tolkien says the most important message of LOTR is "about God, and His sole right to divine honor" (The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien edited by H. Carpenter with C. Tolkien, 243). Tolkien says God deserves that honor because only He can create. Sauron wants to share that honor.
So Sauron is not evil simply because he destroys. Rather, he is evil because he tries to create. In fact, Sauron doesn't even need to destroy to be satisfied. He just wants to reign as a Creator within his world, and to be worshipped as one.
It's often said that Sauron resembles the Biblical figure Satan. (The story of Satan, briefly, is that he is a fallen angel. He presumes to challenge God, and tricks Adam and Eve into disobeying God's will. As a result, they are exiled from Paradise.) Critic Randel Helms declares the stories of Sauron and Satan align "point by point." A few thousand years before LOTR begins, Sauron tricks a group of humans into defying the angelic spirits. As a result, the beautiful island home of the humans is destroyed. The few humans who survive are driven to Middle-earth, just as Adam and Eve are driven from Eden.
The comparison is fair. Yet even when Tolkein considered Sauron's worst acts, he found a way to overcome his disgust. He had compassion for Sauron, just as he had coompassion for Gollum. In Tolkien's world, even the worst acts can be forgiven. For instance, the Valar who first shapes the Dwarves is also trying to be a Creator, but because he repents that sin Iluvatar rewards him by giving life to the Dwarves.
Tolkien never forgot the lesson he was taught about Satan: Satan was not always evil, nor was he completely evil. Likewise, Sauron could not be pure evil. Tolkien even declares that philosophy outright in LOTR: "Nothing is evil in the beginning," Elrond Halfelven tells the Fellowship. "Even Sauron was not so" (The Lord of the Rings by J.R.R. Tolkien, 261).
|
|
|
Post by PJ on Sept 19, 2005 17:33:33 GMT -5
Well, to be honest, I find it somewhat dodgy, as I said I would, but I see your point. These are pretty subtle, but ok, Tolkien's work was influenced by the bible. That I can accept.
|
|
|
Post by Charles Vane on Sept 19, 2005 18:28:01 GMT -5
So to post a thread saying "heyyy guyz did u know lotr was christain-based" is asking for a bit of mockery, frankly. No saying "Hey guys, mock me! Just a little bit." is asking for a bit of mockery. Some people ojn the forum may not have the intelligence standards you require but that doesn't mean you should mock them. Nina could prove her point better and list her arguements in a clear way but I'm tired of all the abuse to those kinds of members. So basically, in my sections the rudeness stops. Theres a joking way to say things and then theres cruelty which it seems a lot of people happily display on this forum.
|
|