Post by ponygirl's vapor on May 24, 2003 18:46:23 GMT -5
Right now I am re-reading FOTR, and am on the chapter of Tom Bombadil, and I got to thinking, who is he? He can't be an elf, cuz he said, "'When the Elves passed westward, Tom was here already...".
So the next thing would be a Maia. But remember this part of the chapter, "Then Tom put the Ring round the end of his little finger and held it up to the candlelight... There was no sign of Tom disappearing!" But if Gandalf, Saruman, and Sauron (who were all Maia) are affected by the rings invisibility power and the want to keep it. But tom is not, he could Control the ring.
That takes Maia and Elf off the list. Next would be a Vala. It seems likely that a Vala would be capable of resisting the power of the ring. This is what I thought Tom was, a Vala in incognito- most likely Aule.
But I looked up tom on the internet and found this one site that says this stuff:
"'Eldest, that's what I am... Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn... He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from Outside.'"
The Fellowship of the Ring I 7, In the House of Tom Bombadil
All of the beings who became Valar existed before Arda was made, so any of them could with justification claim the title 'Eldest'. But Tom says he 'knew the dark under the stars' (that is, he was in the World, not outside it) 'before the Dark Lord came from Outside'. The term 'Dark Lord' is uncertain here - it might apply to either Melkor or Sauron, and both originally came from 'Outside' the World. If he means Melkor, then this is very significant: consider this description of the entry of the Valar into the World, from the original conception of the Silmarillion:
"Now swiftly as they fared, Melko was there before them..."
The Book of Lost Tales, Part I, III The Coming of the Valar and the Building of Valinor
'They' here refers to Manwë and Varda, who were explicitly the first Valar to enter Arda apart from Melko (Melkor). In Tolkien's original conception, then (and there is nothing in the published Silmarillion to contradict this) Melkor was the first being from 'Outside' to enter the World, and yet Tom suggests that he was already here when Melkor arrived!
Admittedly Tom may be referring to Sauron, who must have come to Arda after these great ones, but the phrase 'before the Dark Lord came from Outside' seems to make more sense if he means Melkor (that is, he is referring to an event of cosmic significance, and a specific point in the World's history, which isn't the case with Sauron).
This is only one of the objections to the Vala theory. Another, for example, is that characters who we would expect to recognize a Vala living in their midst (especially Gandalf) don't apparently do so.
Any other ideas on this subject?
So the next thing would be a Maia. But remember this part of the chapter, "Then Tom put the Ring round the end of his little finger and held it up to the candlelight... There was no sign of Tom disappearing!" But if Gandalf, Saruman, and Sauron (who were all Maia) are affected by the rings invisibility power and the want to keep it. But tom is not, he could Control the ring.
That takes Maia and Elf off the list. Next would be a Vala. It seems likely that a Vala would be capable of resisting the power of the ring. This is what I thought Tom was, a Vala in incognito- most likely Aule.
But I looked up tom on the internet and found this one site that says this stuff:
"'Eldest, that's what I am... Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn... He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from Outside.'"
The Fellowship of the Ring I 7, In the House of Tom Bombadil
All of the beings who became Valar existed before Arda was made, so any of them could with justification claim the title 'Eldest'. But Tom says he 'knew the dark under the stars' (that is, he was in the World, not outside it) 'before the Dark Lord came from Outside'. The term 'Dark Lord' is uncertain here - it might apply to either Melkor or Sauron, and both originally came from 'Outside' the World. If he means Melkor, then this is very significant: consider this description of the entry of the Valar into the World, from the original conception of the Silmarillion:
"Now swiftly as they fared, Melko was there before them..."
The Book of Lost Tales, Part I, III The Coming of the Valar and the Building of Valinor
'They' here refers to Manwë and Varda, who were explicitly the first Valar to enter Arda apart from Melko (Melkor). In Tolkien's original conception, then (and there is nothing in the published Silmarillion to contradict this) Melkor was the first being from 'Outside' to enter the World, and yet Tom suggests that he was already here when Melkor arrived!
Admittedly Tom may be referring to Sauron, who must have come to Arda after these great ones, but the phrase 'before the Dark Lord came from Outside' seems to make more sense if he means Melkor (that is, he is referring to an event of cosmic significance, and a specific point in the World's history, which isn't the case with Sauron).
This is only one of the objections to the Vala theory. Another, for example, is that characters who we would expect to recognize a Vala living in their midst (especially Gandalf) don't apparently do so.
Any other ideas on this subject?