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Post by Sora on May 15, 2009 16:08:10 GMT -5
Welcome back, Sora! I look forward to TUA. By the way, I have quite a lot of thoughts about THH, as yet unexpressed - either scribbled on paper or in my head. I hope it will be OK if I post them at some point. we've left the previous seven threads open for extra discussion post-read just in case revelations from later books help in your understanding of previous ones. But I must admit - we got four pages out of TMM, and that was frankly benign in the series. THH is a hell of a lot richer in terms of allusions and progressive material.
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Post by Hermes on Jun 1, 2009 13:31:03 GMT -5
OK, here, somewhat belatedly, are my thoughts on THH.
Chapters 1-4
I'm trying to get the geography of this worked out. Although the hospital is described as being in the middle of nowhere, it is clearly within striking distance of the city - the volunteers go there every morning and return at night, and later Olaf and friends expect to get back to the city in time for dinner. Still, they may be prepared to travel for a couple of hours, so it could be a hundred miles or more from the city. ('In Europe, a hundred miles is a long way' - but Handler won't be thinking in those terms.) The Last Chance General Store is somewhere between the city and the hospital. It's hard to say where VFD is in relation to this, since we don't know which direction the Baudelaires were walking in at the start - though, again, it's some way from the city, but still in striking distance of it.
The police are allowing only the Volunteers and the deliveryperson through. This raises the question how doctors, etc. get to the hospital. (Perhaps, though, the store isn't on the direct line between there and the city. The deliveryperson has to go out of their way to deliver the papers, and the Volunteers may be going out of their way to get free fuel.)
Has anyone noticed that, so far as I can see, we are never told whether the deliveryperson is a 'he' or a 'she' - the name 'Lou' being ambiguous, of course?
So, Beatrice first met Esme at afternoon tea. Does this imply that they weren't at school together? Was this the same occasion on which the sugar bowl was stolen?
When Lemony calls Congreve his associate, I think this is the first time he has referred to a famous writer in this way - evidence that the concept of VFD is finally taking shape?
The Cathedral of the Alleged Virgin passage shows that Lemony has managed to escape from prison. His exact situation is rather puzzling; 'the worshippers sitting in the pews' sounds as if a service is taking place, but in that case Lemony's friend wouldn't have to play a sonata. (I will not mention the question whether 'Cathedral of the Alleged Virgin' is in the best of taste.)
Do the Volunteers expect recruits? 'Let's all get to know each other' sounds as if they did not know each other before; though the Baudelaires are clearly afraid they will be recognised as new, as if new volunteers were not normal.
Lemony's dentist story is a bit puzzling; why should he want to smuggle one page of his latest book past the guards at the airport?
The plan to sleep in the unfinished half of the hospital is also a bit odd; the Baudelaires think they will be recognised as they walk back to the Volunteers' van; but aren't they equally in danger of being recognised as they make their way to the unfinished half?
Hal wanted volunteers to help him in the Library of Records. Might he have been thinking, not of Volunteers Fighting Disease, but of a different kind of volunteer? But if so, this belongs to a thread which is never followed up.
[hobbyhorse]'after nine months, six days, and fourteen hours of research, I can say with reasonable certainty that Hal was not employed as a spy'. So L is writing this at least nine months, etc., after the events.[/hobbyhorse]
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Post by Dante on Jun 1, 2009 13:51:05 GMT -5
Has anyone noticed that, so far as I can see, we are never told whether the deliveryperson is a 'he' or a 'she' - the name 'Lou' being ambiguous, of course? Bad luck, Hermes. Page 10. "Lou is one chubby man" Fine point. I think at the time of writing, this would've been the afternoon tea at which the sugar bowl was stolen; in the later revision of events, in which Esmé is hanging around rather more often, it might be more cautious to describe it as a general get-together of young volunteers and their friends... it all depends on whether or not Esmé was a member of V.F.D., something which I'm firmly undecided on. Well, Babs evidently was thinking of Volunteers Fighting Disease, since she so names them, which may impact on interpretation of a certain letter in the U.A.. Not that it's necessary. She could just have said "volunteers," lower-case, and it would still work because anyone interested would be volunteering. That's what Hal did, I see, when he meets the children. It's three-dimensionally ambiguous; "volunteers" of no particular sort, Volunteers Fighting Disease, or members of the Volunteer...
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Post by Hermes on Jun 1, 2009 17:01:49 GMT -5
Bad luck, Hermes. Page 10. "Lou is one chubby man" Bother. So why the cumbersome term 'deliveryperson', I wonder? Chapters 5-8. Yet another Finnish reference - a file on biographies of famous Finnish fishermen. What is it with Handler and things Finnish? The passage where Sunny opens an empty cabinet is striking - presumably this is not the cabinet which actually contained the Baudelaire/Snicket file; I take it that Sunny can recognise intials but not read beyond that. But why is a whole cabinet absolutely empty? Why does Violet feel she has to invent a different lockpick for each lock? The sugar bowl makes its first appearance. What can we say about it? Clearly it really did belong to Esme, or L would not feel guilty about stealing it; and it was important in some way - its theft was not just a prank - since he says it was necessary (though a moment later he doubts this). While this description suggests that the theft of the sugar bowl was an important event, it doesn't give any suggestion that the sugar bowl as an object is of ongoing importance, as ti will be later. At this point it seems that it was definitely L who did it; later it's suggested it was B, or both together. Sunny's language in this passage is particularly absurd. 'Kalm' apparently means 'I can't read very well, but I think this one says "Sequel to Serenity"', while 'Shh' means 'I thinl the H aisle might be a good place to look for the file'. The photograph and sentence, as well as making the Baudelaires stare, also make the author cry himself to sleep - evidence, perhaps, that the survivor might have been someone of particular importance to the author? Of course, it isn't - it's Quigley - and, I think, was meant from the start to be either Quigley or, just possibly, another member of a set of three siblings. But Lemony himself, as well as the Baudelaires, might at one time have believed it was - i.e. that it was Beatrice - in which case this is more evidence of her identity. When was the photograph taken? On what occasion would Lemony and Bertrand both have been with Beatrice? I rather assume L never saw B after their breakup - does this contradict that? E seems to claim that she intends to destroy all the Baudelaires - presumably later O points out to her that they need to keep one to get the fortune. Her statement that 'That's why' is a bit obscure - literally it means that she destroyed Jacques, and will destroy the Buadelaires, because she knows about the file. My guess is that she really means that she is destroying all these things/people because they have evidence agaisnt her. Each Baudelaire is separated from the others at some point in the series - this is Violet's separation. Klaus was separated in TMM - first physically, and then effectively by hypnotism; Sunny will be separated in TSS. I'm rather worried about the Baudelaires' sleeping patterns. They stayed awake all night in VFD, trying to escape from jail. The next night they stayed awake half the night, escaping, and then dozed until the morning. The night after that they actually slept, but the night after that they stay awake searching files and then waiting anxiously for Violet. [hobbyhorse]'Heimlich Hospital is gone now....' - we aren't told for how long, but the description suggests several years to me.[/hobbyhorse]
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Post by Dante on Jun 2, 2009 4:24:54 GMT -5
Bother. So why the cumbersome term 'deliveryperson', I wonder? I admit I thought you might've had something when I saw "deliveryperson" being thrown about such a lot, but no... Perhaps Handler just doesn't like gendered generic terms. Which is entirely reasonable. There is space for information covering all ranges of letters, but that doesn't mean the library actually has such information. It could be an obscure letter range. That's... huh. Good point. An oversight, perhaps - it's not inability to use other methods that's important here, all we're interested in is making the Baudelaires lie and steal. I think there are a few occasions where it seems like the wedded Baudelaires probably met Lemony afterwards? There's... there's a part in The End which reads to me like it took place after Beatrice and Bertrand married, as Beatrice calls Lemony "Mr. Snicket," and it feels like an adult exchange. Hm. Of course, the photograph could also have been taken before the calamitous break-up of Lemony and Beatrice - and yet, Lemony was hiding his face. Hm. That is problematic, but I don't think it's problematic in an important way. The photograph is of a group of friends, who... Ah. Just remembered something important - or not: The person taking the photograph. The U.A. teaches us to pay attention to this (TGG alludes to it, too). It was because of that that some of us concluded that Kit was the photographer here, and that photography was a particular skill of hers. At the time it was assumed that each volunteer had a specialist skill, as the Baudelaire and Quagmire children do.
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Post by Hermes on Jun 2, 2009 6:23:23 GMT -5
I think there are a few occasions where it seems like the wedded Baudelaires probably met Lemony afterwards? There's... there's a part in The End which reads to me like it took place after Beatrice and Bertrand married, as Beatrice calls Lemony "Mr. Snicket," and it feels like an adult exchange. Hm. As you say, hm. The key thing, I think, is the masked ball, at which Lemony speaks to Beatrice after not communicating with her for fifteen years. It's natural to think this period begins with the breakup; but TBL, I think, forces us to say it doesn't begin then, but with the telegram, sent while B was pregnant with Violet. So in any case L and B didn't meet after V's birth. One could, with enough ingenuity, fit in some meetings between the breakup and then, though it feels more natural to me to say that they didn't meet, what with L leaving the country, B later thinking he was dead, and so on. (But of course I'm using facts that were probably invented long after THH here.) I think most volunteers do have a specialised skill - herpetology, for instance, or ichnology. But what K's is is hard to say - information gathering? (Of course, she may have taken that up late in life - perhaps she was a photographer before that.) Chapters 9-12 Interesting and illuminating theough the anagrams are, they aren't, in the end, very helpful to the Baudelaires; they find Violet by following O's associates. The plot to kill Laura V. Bleediotie, needless to say, does not make sense. Why do it in public 'to make it look like an accident', when if it were done in private no one would know about it anyway? Nobody knows that V is in the hospital, so no one will be alarmed by her disappearance. And presumably one of the other two children is going to be killed privately in any case. Perhaps we should remember that O is an impresario as well as a villain - he would be proud of carrying out a murder in full view, as a theatrical spectacle. What is going to happen to the surviving orphan remains a mystery - just how can Mr Poe be forced to hand over the money? Are they simply thinking of a ransom? The bit about the Operating Theatre is a bit confusing for British readers, because here 'operating theatre' just means a room where operations take place, not an actual theatre with an audience - though there is an Old Operating Theatre museum at Guy's Hospital in London. It's interesting to know that Klaus has read a book on how to have a happy marriage. It will not be much use to him in the near future, alas, as both his potential love interests are destined to be swallowed by the Great Unknown. 'and the only trace I have of those happy days is the tattoo on my left ankle'. Aha! I think this is the first indication we get that L actually belonged to the same organisation as J and O - we haven't been told yet that the tattoo does indicate membership of an organisation, but since a volunteer organisation has been mentioned several times, it may be possible by now to work that out. 'after the murdering arsonists have been captured, you might want to rescue some of the patients who are trapped in the fire.' I suppose this shows a touch of humanity in Olaf - the MWBBNH and the WWHBNB would probably be positively pleased by the death of all the patients.
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Post by Dante on Jun 2, 2009 8:09:54 GMT -5
As you say, hm. The key thing, I think, is the masked ball, at which Lemony speaks to Beatrice after not communicating with her for fifteen years. It's natural to think this period begins with the breakup; but TBL, I think, forces us to say it doesn't begin then... There's a long-term project for someone - assemble the backstory as it stands in each book, using no information that comes from a later book. I'd say that "information gathering" is more Jacques's field, as a detective... hard to argue that Kit doesn't do the same thing, though. "Archivist"? This also applies to TBB - Olaf could've pulled the whole plot off in a dress rehearsal, then cancelled the main play due to some excuse. Less witnesses, etc. But we've more than enough evidence that Olaf is an enormous showman. He'd relish the thought of pulling off not just an incredible crime, but pulling it off in full view of everyone. Probably. Blackmail'd do the trick. Hand over the fortune or we'll cut off little Sunny's ear, etc. It's hard to say how Poe would react. Stupidly, of course, but would that involve going along with the plan or failing to do so in a manner that endangered the remaining orphan? And they're bad enough without spectators, but that's besides the point. I'm familiar with the concept of an "operating theatre" with an audience from some of my old classes, but the name hasn't changed. So in modern American parlance they're called something different now, huh? I think Jacques saying that he has his tattoo as part of his job, which the Baudelaires then hypothetically link to time in Olaf's troupe, allow us to make the connection in TVV. THH solidifies it, though. It's not so much like a jigsaw as it is a distant picture slowly coming into focus. Of course, eventually we zoom in so far that all the information overwhelms us and we're unable to process it into a wider image, but that's by the by. I see it more as a token gesture to what people would expect a person in authority to say in this situation, but I quite agree that Olaf gets a few more "human" moments in comparison to the downright Satanic sinister duo.
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Post by Hermes on Jun 2, 2009 14:05:42 GMT -5
I'm familiar with the concept of an "operating theatre" with an audience from some of my old classes, but the name hasn't changed. So in modern American parlance they're called something different now, huh? Just operating rooms, I believe. That's a brilliant way of expressing it. Chapter 13. L says he does not know where the Baudelaires are now or if they even alive - this seems to fit in with what he says in The End. It seems to imply that, in any case, the story will not end with their deaths. O says he thinks he knows where to find the Snicket file. I don't think this is followed up in later books; in TCC he hopes Lulu can tell him where the file is; he himself does not claim to know. O refers to VFD as 'You-Know-Who'. This, as I mentioned in another thread, may illuminate a line from TUA. I think this may also be the most explicit statement we've had so far that VFD is an organisation. It's also interesting that O wants to find the file before VFD does - this suggests that at this point we're not meant to think of the file as coming from VFD. (The natural reading of 'Snicket file' at this point is 'file about the Snickets' rather than 'file by the Snickets'.) Do we ever discover what happened to the person of indeterminate gender? Olaf abandons it - showing he is not like the Baudelaires - but it may still have survived; clearly some people who were in the hospital did. In any case, this is where Olaf's troupe begins to lose members (in the first book since TBB where they have all appeared.).
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Post by Dante on Jun 2, 2009 15:28:01 GMT -5
Do we ever discover what happened to the person of indeterminate gender? Olaf abandons it - showing he is not like the Baudelaires - but it may still have survived; clearly some people who were in the hospital did. The people who survived had already gotten out, I think. The henchperson was trapped in a corridor that was on fire. There was smoke coming through the bottom of the door. It's not looking good for the enormous creature. If it got out, it wouldn't have been without exactly the sorts of injuries that a hospital is needed to treat.
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Post by andrewistheman on Jun 2, 2009 17:40:15 GMT -5
where was the fire? in the Mortmain Mountains?
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Post by Dante on Jun 3, 2009 8:05:03 GMT -5
...In Heimlich Hospital? Because this is the THH reread? There are a lot of fires in the series.
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