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Post by Hermes on Jun 9, 2009 9:47:04 GMT -5
On checking TPP, it seems to me that Kit is definitely saying that noble people, quite generally, don't sweeten their tea; she is just quoting her brother (and it's not clear which brother) in support of that. But we can discuss that when we get to it, no doubt. If I recall correctly, there are quite a few situations, especially in TVV through TPP, that are like this - because whole days need to be filled for plot purposes, they get padded out in similar implausible fashion. The odd thing is that if he had just said 'It took them all morning to fix the engines' it would have been quite believable; it's because he actually gives the conversation that there's a problem. Chapter 11. Note that L says he has made several visits to Caligari Cardinal to look for the fan belt - another indication that his research has taken quite some time. 'My former associate Olivia' - just in case we hadn't got the point by now. The way L puts it suggests that the bald man is not his former associate, thus helping to answer the question 'Are all Olaf's henchmen ex-VFD?' (Actually I suspect that to start with - or, when VFD was first invented - none of them were meant to be; the idea of Fernald's backstory was thought up later.) Chapter 12. More heart-searching about whether the Baudelaires did the right thing; V seems to think you haven't done the right thing unless you've achieved the desired result, while K and S take a milder view on which what matters is doing the best you can. But V is also worried about whether they did do the best they could. Notice that Lulu had made preparations for escape - her plan to escape was not just a fraud. I fear her philosophy got the better of her - she planned to help the Baudelaires, but then told O who they were because that was what he wanted; then still tried to help them escape, but finally decided to throw them to the lions because that is what the crowd wanted. It's a bit odd that Olaf doesn't already know about the Mortmain Mountains HQ. The obvious explanation is that it was established in the last 15-20 years, after he left VFD; but in TSS we will find that L and B spent time there together in their youth, and in TPP that Dewey was taken there as a child. The way O has to explain things to E suggests she was not in VFD - though it may be that she just wasn't attending in lessons. 'we should ride east until we find the Stricken Stream'. So the mountains are in the east. Well, as Dante points out, not necessarily - it could mean they should go east as far as the Stricken Stream (still in the plain) and then follow it north to the mountains (though the stream isn't actually described until they reach the mountains). My point is not that the geography described in this book is impossible, just that it's confusing. I suspect that it was after Beatrice read this book that she wrote 'You have a lousy sense of direction'. But while you can make it consistent, I don't think you can use it as a guide to the geography of the series as a whole - which there's a temptation to do, given that this is the book which contains most mention of compass points. 'I wouldn't worry about this buck-toothed twerp - not yet'. This suggests that O wants to do soething nasty to Sunny after he has 'used her to get the fortune' - which in turn means he can't just be contemplating a ransom. I'm not sure he really knows, any more, what he means to do. Edit: Chapter 13. Is the long rusty knife the same one that was used in THH? Why cut through the knot?
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Post by Dante on Jun 9, 2009 13:10:56 GMT -5
On checking TPP, it seems to me that Kit is definitely saying that noble people, quite generally, don't sweeten their tea; she is just quoting her brother (and it's not clear which brother) in support of that. But we can discuss that when we get to it, no doubt. Hm, on a reread, it does look like that. But I still draw the line. We can go into detail when we get to TPP, as you say. The odd thing is that if he had just said 'It took them all morning to fix the engines' it would have been quite believable; it's because he actually gives the conversation that there's a problem. I think there are two separate styles here. Sometimes he throws away whole days, usually as the children are getting accustomed to a new home, and I recall him passing off several periods of a couple of hours in parts of TBB. But I think in this particular chapter it would feel like a bit of a cop-out; there are things the Baudelaires should be doing and discussing and skipping over it wouldn't feel right. The worrying thing is that I would interpret TBL as indicating that Olaf was at the Mortmain Mountains headquarters also as a child. Perhaps a lack of cartographical experience? Or perhaps neophytes weren't allowed to know the specific location of headquarters, just details of the environs? Or, for that matter, the knife used in TRR?
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Post by Hermes on Jun 10, 2009 7:38:40 GMT -5
.The worrying thing is that I would interpret TBL as indicating that Olaf was at the Mortmain Mountains headquarters also as a child. That's how I read it at first as well, but actually I don't think so. The school attended by L, B and O is the same as that later attended by young B (though by then it's fallen on bad times and had to diguise itself as a secretarial school) , which is in the city. You can reasonably ask whether this fits what we know about VFD up to that point, of course. Makes sense. The car which took Lemony away had tinted windows, if I remember rightly, so neophytes may not know exactly where they are going.
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Post by cwm on Jun 14, 2009 10:30:17 GMT -5
Yeah...uh...sorry about that...ran out of time...
I'll try to get some very brief notes on chapters 4-13 up over the week...
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Post by Dante on Jun 14, 2009 11:13:37 GMT -5
Thanks, cwm. Your thoughts would be much-appreciated.
Funny. I'd have thought that TCC was a popular book, but it hasn't seemed to really inspire people. Even I couldn't bring myself to reread it.
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Post by cwm on Jun 14, 2009 14:47:22 GMT -5
I might be repeating a lot of what some people have already said. Sorry.
Chapter Three The bald man offers corn to 'Chabo', but snatches his hand away when he sees the sharp teeth. Is this foreshadowing his death?
Chapter Four The tagliatelle grande reappears in TGG. None of the villains are smart enough to realise how ineffectual it would be, but I suppose it's done to take the violence out of it whilst still giving the villains a weapon - people would object (to the books in real life) if they were using an actual whip to beat their subjects into submission.
This is the first real indication beyond the fruit salad in THH that Sunny's interested in cooking. Her first actual preparing of a meal will come in TSS.
Snicket qualifies the story of Queen Debbie with 'something like this', so it may not be an exact reproduction. Possibly it's related to V.F.D.
Chapter Five
The infamous 'deja vu' gag.
Chapter Five
The infamous 'deja vu' gag.
Since Olaf doesn't know the Baudelaires are disguised as freaks until the day of the lion show, whereupon he decides to rig the voting, this is apparently just a mad act of cruelty.
Chapter Six Gosh, this book moves quicker than I'd remembered. Then again, all the books do, we just suddenly jump-cut from the end of the Baudelaires' first day at the carnival to the fortune tent.
Lemony doesn't know that his sister is dead yet. This is further complicated by the letter in TSS, which we will get to in the reread of that book.
Count Olaf took Violet's hair ribbon whilst he was preparing her for surgery. I seem to recall some people used this, along with the stained gown, as evidence that Olaf abused Violet in some way during THH, if you get my drift...but I suppose he'd remove the ribbon to add realism, since nobody would be allowed to keep their hair ribbon on during surgery.
What does Madame Lulu do when the days are longer? It doesn't seem like this device would work year-round.
That'll do for tonight.
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Post by lollipopdays on Jun 14, 2009 18:57:19 GMT -5
All I have to say is, THE POOR LADY! but i don't really care about the bald man. (not as professional and formal as the other reviews, but i'm just straight - forwward )
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Post by Hermes on Jun 15, 2009 8:42:02 GMT -5
I suppose it's done to take the violence out of it whilst still giving the villains a weapon - people would object (to the books in real life) if they were using an actual whip to beat their subjects into submission. Though they do use a real whip on the lions. I don't think it's just that. It's an attraction intended to bring more people to the carnival, thus putting Lulu in a good mood and making her more likely to help. The bit about herbed toast in TGG is even more problematic. In any case, the idea that she tells only one fortune a day is odd - and even in winter, presumably there wouldn't be many visitors to the carnival at dawn.
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Post by Dante on Jun 15, 2009 8:44:01 GMT -5
Chapter FiveThe infamous 'deja vu' gag. Chapter FiveThe infamous 'deja vu' gag. Even as I was reading the words I didn't see this coming. You're a terrible person, cwm. I guess Olaf's been encouraged not to think of the freaks as human. Olivia's no civilising influence on that score. And then just put the ribbon in the pockets of some pants he wasn't actually ever wearing, apparently? Unless there were elements to the Mattathias disguise beyond just, well, not being seen, but I think that ruins the purity of the disguise. It's perfect because it's not a disguise at all. I think Violet also said when the Baudelaires first disguised themselves that she'd stop wearing a ribbon in her hair while she was disguised - which strikes me as an odd thing to say considering that she didn't possess a ribbon at the time, so perhaps Handler had simply forgotten at that moment that she'd lost her previous outfit. (This is also helpful for TSS.) And I think what worries people insofar as abuse is concerned is the fact that Violet was changed into a theater gown, but presumably the white-faced women would've handled that as they handled Violet's dressing for the play in TBB (...and Klaus's?). Goes travelling around for research, perhaps - shuts the carnival for a few months, or at least shuts her fortune-telling booth and tells the other staff to handle things themselves while she goes out "promoting the carnival, please." Or maybe there's an extra part to the invention that she only brings out at the necessary times of year.
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Post by cwm on Jun 15, 2009 9:05:45 GMT -5
He probably did go down to the theatre preparation just to check nothing was going wrong. Babs would need to do much the same as well - she can't run everything from an intercom, surely? - so I guess she implemented a way for the HoHR to get around the hospital without being seen.
No, I don't know what sort of way that would be either, but I like the theory.
Oh, and doesn't Violet make a makeshift ribbon when inventing the spurious intercom at the end of THH?
Chapter Seven "Every time I see a piece of paper blow by, I chase after it to see if it's one of the pages." Chasing after every piece of paper you see to find out if it's what you're looking for is apparently a popular method for V.F.D.
Is Olaf last taking a shower ten days ago the first real indication of his dreadful hygiene? Nothing else really springs to mind.
Chapter Nine Yes, I really did have nothing to say on chapter eight.
Some kind of ivy was also growing over the remains of Heimlich Hospital, as I recall. The same thing?
Good heavens, we're already on the Baudelaires' last day. They arrived at the end of what we'll call Day A, spent Day B working in the carnival, and left during Day C. That's approximately thirty-six hours in total. TPP covers slightly more than twenty-four hours, making it the book covering the least amount of time, but is/was TCC the book covering the least amount of time to date?
The end of the chapter arrives. This is Olaf's first on-screen (so to speak) appearance in the book where he knows the true identity of the Baudelaires.
Chapter Ten Another appearance of the deja vu gag.
Chapter Ten Another appearance of the deja vu gag.
Pinstripes are still in.
The one piece of sanity in the whole 'throwing a freak to the lions' debacle - the woman with dyed hair asks 'Is this legal?' She doesn't pursue the matter, however.
Apparently by now everyone believes that Count Olaf was Count Omar and was murdered by the Baudelaires; certainly enough for nobody to blink when a newspaper article with 'Count Olaf' appears.
Chapter Eleven The bald-nosed man and Madame Lulu are the first characters to definitely die on-screen, so to speak. Uncle Monty, the person of indeterminate gender, assorted other characters and Aunt Josephine were all killed out of sight. We don't actually 'see' the act, just hear the 'crunching of bones', but it's the first death the Baudelaires really witness.
The fan belt apparently ended up on the Island...but there are a lot of fan belts.
Chapter Twelve Olivia really was planning on leaving with the Baudelaires, then, despite her betrayal - or perhaps she thought Olaf was planning on killing her anyway.
'A small bouquet of ivy' - I love that. It's the same ivy from the coasters, of course.
Olaf holds a flaming torch inside a tent of confined space and manages to avoid setting the canvas alight.
had not washed his one eyebrow for some time Who specifically washes their eyebrows? I mean, just focusing on the eyebrows and no other part of the face?
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Post by Hermes on Jun 15, 2009 13:28:26 GMT -5
Good heavens, we're already on the Baudelaires' last day. They arrived at the end of what we'll call Day A, spent Day B working in the carnival, and left during Day C. That's approximately thirty-six hours in total. TPP covers slightly more than twenty-four hours, making it the book covering the least amount of time, but is/was TCC the book covering the least amount of time to date? I think it must be. They spent three nights in the village. They only spent two nights at the hospital, but the book covers the previous night as well. I guess they are a long way from town, so law-enforcement isn't very effective.
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Post by andrewistheman on Jun 15, 2009 18:04:19 GMT -5
It stinks that all of this never happened....Why doesn't anyone ask Handler this stuff anyways. i mean he is Lemony Snicket. ALL OF THIS IS MADE Up....there doesn't have to be an explanation to everything you guys, but it would be nice.
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Post by Dante on Jun 16, 2009 4:55:13 GMT -5
Why doesn't anyone ask Handler this stuff anyways. i mean he is Lemony Snicket. Daniel Handler is a master of avoiding the question. And one gets so few opportunities to ask him questions that it seems churlish to bother him with trivialities. ...From a series that he finished three years ago.
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Post by andrewistheman on Jun 16, 2009 21:34:42 GMT -5
good point Why doesn't anyone ask Handler this stuff anyways. i mean he is Lemony Snicket. Daniel Handler is a master of avoiding the question. And one gets so few opportunities to ask him questions that it seems churlish to bother him with trivialities. ...From a series that he finished three years ago. Have you ever met him or asked him. I mean such a big fan such as yourself should be recognized.
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Post by Dante on Jun 17, 2009 4:28:07 GMT -5
I'm quite content with what I have. Which admittedly does run to a couple of signed books.
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