How long do you think the Snow Scouts existed?

[Very Funky Disco]

I would hazard a guess that the group was formed when Carmelita Spats was about three or four - and, thus, "nap-loving" being a part of the pledge. I would guess that the group lasted from about eight to ten years, and I always figured Carmelita to be younger than Klaus. I'm sure that, after the events of The Slippery Slope, then group became defunct.

What are your thoughts?

[Dante]

I like to think that it existed when the main adults of the series were young - thus allowing Jerome Squalor to have been in the Snow Scouts. The basic point is to create a situation in which the Snow Scouts might have run joint expeditions with the neophytes of the Mortmain Mountains V.F.D. headquarters, although of course they would present themselves as a private climbing lodge or something similar. All I need is a situation in which Jerome Squalor could've been on that mountain-climbing trip without needing to have been in V.F.D. (since he's not), and I consider this solution not only satisfying but interesting. Based on this, I also suggest that it might have been a volunteer who originally founded the Snow Scouts, quite a way back down the line, although the organisation wouldn't have been an official V.F.D. subdivision but one which had similar general aims, i.e. to educate youngsters, in this case about the mountains.

[Very Funky Disco]

Okay, the reason why I thought it wasn't around for very long was due to the assertion that they "did the same thing" every year - including making Carmelita Spats a False Spring Queen. Also, Bruce said that he was the one to come up with the pledge.

In spite of being Carmelita's uncle, and maybe doting on her too much, Bruce really didn't seem like the bad sort. Perhaps Bruce was interested in mountain-climbing, and wished to get younger kids interested in it. Perhaps, Carmelita refused to join the group - until Bruce promised to let her be the False Spring Queen.

[shotzgoboom]

I really like Dante's theory. It would certainly make sense for their to be a connection--albeit a forgotten one, perhaps, to VFD. Afterall, it seems from the Beatrice Letters (and it could say so in TUA, but I haven't gotten a chance to read that yet) that many VFD members start their training early. It would be a perfect expedition for members in training.

I imagine the Snow Scouts, like the Girl Scouts, to have been around for nearly a hundred years. Many things loose their initial purpose/meaning after that kind of a duration (Holidays are a perfect example), so what could have once been a VFD-related organization could now be nothing more than a simple camping troop.
Then again, I remember something in TSS about the Baudelaires thinking Bruce looked familliar, but I don't recall the book ever explaining why, or where they might have seen him before. There could be some sort of VFD mystery just in that.

My one thought against this theory, however, is that if it was VFD-related, it would have probably had the initials of VFD. Like Volunteer Frostbite Dodgers or something, you know?

[Hermes]

I tend to agree with Dante. There are two bits of evidence which I think vaguely support this - I was going to mention them on the TSS reread, but may as well bring them up now. Fernald calls Bruce 'Uncle Bruce' - he might just have picked this up from the children, but I wonder whether he was in the Snow Scouts as a boy. (Of course another possible reading is that Bruce is his uncle, and his famously unknown surname is 'Spats'. But probably not.) And Esme comes up with a very nice pastiche of the Snow Scout pledge in praise of Carmelita - again I wonder if she already knew the pledge, because she was in the Snow Scouts as a girl.

shotzgoboom - I really like the idea of Volunteer Frotsbite Dodgers. But perhaps if they were created after VFD began to be concerned about secrecy, they wouldn't use the intitials. And we are told why Bruce is familiar to the Baudelaires - they met him before in TRR, where he was collecting the reptiles for the Herpetological Society.

[Dante]

shotzgoboom, the Baudelaires recognised Bruce because he appeared for a few pages at the end of TRR; he's the Herpetological Society's Director of Marketing. I think that the organisation not having V.F.D. initials could be a discredit against any long-distant link to V.F.D., but considering the structure of TSS it might've been a bit shoehorned; "Snow Scouts," matching the initials of the book, is a bit more elegant. Good alternative, though! Since we're making it up, we don't need to worry too much so long as we remain within the spirit of the original, I think.

[shotzgoboom]

ah, that's why I couldn't figure out where they had seen him! When I went to re-read the series, I skipped straight to TAA, and therefore haven't read TRR since about fourth grade. I'll hop to it, though!

And those are really good points, Hermes! I woudln't have thought of that! It is awfully curious, isn't it?

and I have a slight question: I don't recall ever seeing it mentioned anywhere, but does anyone know how long VFD itself has been around?

[Hermes]

Jun 19, 2009 12:25:22 GMT -5 shotzgoboom said:

and I have a slight question: I don't recall ever seeing it mentioned anywhere, but does anyone know how long VFD itself has been around?

There is an answer to that, but I can't think where. Somewhere there is a reference to a famous writer as 'one of the first volunteers', so I think VFD must have been founded in that writer's lifetime; but I can't remember who it was. I'll look out for it when it comes up in the reread - I don't think we've had it yet.

[Dante]

TPP 196, Dewey Denouement: "As one of the first volunteers said a very long time ago, 'Though boys throw stones at frogs in sport, the frogs do not die in sport, but in earnest.'" Bion, Greek bucolic poet, 325-250 BCE. I consider certain "volunteers" cited to be honourary volunteers adopted by genuine members of the organisation who admire them.

[Hermes]

Jun 21, 2009 13:11:07 GMT -5 Dante said:

I consider certain "volunteers" cited to be honourary volunteers adopted by genuine members of the organisation who admire them.

Hmm - perhaps. In that case we don't have much to go on. The schism (on the TPP dating) happened some thirty years or more ago, and clearly VFD had been around for quite a while then, and had expanded from a simple Volunteer Fire Department to something of global scope - but how long that would take is hard to say.

Wait - didn't we speculate earlier that the Village of Fowl Devotess was founded by members of the other VFD? We know that that happened approximately 306 years ago, which would set a definite time.

[Elle]

and, thus, "nap-loving" being a part of the pledge

Oh, come on, who doesn't love naps?

I consider certain "volunteers" cited to be honourary volunteers adopted by genuine members of the organisation who admire them.

That's a good way to put it. I always found it odd how Lemony referred to real people as "volunteers"