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Post by Charlie on Oct 25, 2012 20:56:13 GMT -5
I have a couple of things to say. Firstly, this is the first thing to definitively link Monty to VFD is it not? If so, how is it that he was unable to recognise the significance of the Sebald Code in ZiTS. Secondly, who is Ellington's mother, did she die in childbirth like Kit perhaps? Thirdly, parallel between Moxie and Duncan, could she be Mrs. Quagmire, or a family friend of the Quagmires. Qwerty points Snicket to books on Dame Sally Murphy when Snicket asks for help. He then directs him to books about real life creatures both aquatic and terrestrial (Great Unknown anyone?). Also, the revelation that Stain'd is near the Hinterlands seem to be at least partially important. This leads it to be relatively close to: Caligari Carnival, Mount Fraught, Stricken Stream, the location of the Sinister Duo during CC, and in extension, the ocean where the Great Unknown is first seen. Even though all the water is drained, it must still be relatively coastal, and my bet is that just past the Clusterous Forest we will find some sort of ocean location. The map in the UA seems to back this up maybe. Also has anyone else noticed the recurring phrase "someplace else". I'm trying to find one in every chapter, but cannot find one for Chapter Three...
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Post by Dante on Oct 26, 2012 2:38:00 GMT -5
Monty's connection to V.F.D. and lack of understanding of the Sebald Code was already revealed in the U.A., but this is the first instance to tie him to the rest of the cast as a young man. Moxie Mallahan becoming Mrs. Quagmire would be... interesting, but tragic, as it means she ultimately dies off-screen as an insubstantial side-character. Conversely, though, I want Jacques to turn up to make his death in TVV retrospectively a harder blow by making him likeable and interesting.
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Post by Charlie on Oct 26, 2012 4:36:34 GMT -5
Yes, it is interesting that Jacques is not mentioned once, yet Kit is mentioned constantly. Kit's death is very sad, but Jacques' is all a bit meh. Most characters will eventually die off-screen (Think Hotel Denouement fire, Island Poisoning (If these events did infact cause deaths)), either of something interesting or old age. I understand what you mean though, I don't relate to Moxie enough to be saddened by her death, and Jacques, not really at all
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Post by Hermes on Oct 26, 2012 13:47:09 GMT -5
As for the statue, the possibility has occurred to me that come the last book the whole series will turn out to have been about Ellington Feint. 'I had thought the clue was the Bombinating Beast, but lately I had been thinking that the clue was something else. I thought perhaps it was the young girl looking for her father....' Though that may be Lemony's obsession talking. Sherry Ann: thanks for Haruki. Do you think he (the hospital patient) is a VFD member, then? Yes, I like the idea of Moxie as Mrs Quagmire. Someone earlier suggested Theodora as Olaf's mother (though of course if she is, she can't also be the Woman with Hair, since O is definitely an orphan by the time of ASOUE). I wonder if we are seeing any other parents. Ellington as Fiona's mother, perhaps? (Yes, I know that this would make the dates with Fernald very tricky.)
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Post by Dante on Oct 26, 2012 14:29:16 GMT -5
The context in which Haruki is introduced in Chapter Thirteen does seem to indicate he's a fellow apprentice and friend of the volunteer youths. Whether he's the same as the more blatant Haruki Murakami reference in THH, and whether he's the same as the real-life author, is a bit more contentious - does Handler even remember he made that original reference? I guess my stance, though, is "why not?" It doesn't seem like it will matter.
I think the idea of Theodora as the woman with hair but no beard is ridiculous and demystifying. Also, while I'm the one who posited a possible link to Olaf, the better an idea we get of her situation, the less likely I think it is. Possibly he was her previous apprentice, though.
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Post by Charlie on Oct 26, 2012 17:53:52 GMT -5
Yes, I think it would be a nice twist if this overly polite, and heavily flattered previous apprentice was infact Olaf. Theodora as WWHBNB is a bit silly, but maybe her daughter?
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Post by Dante on Oct 27, 2012 3:34:11 GMT -5
Theodora actually seems to be relatively young, and so if she had a daughter then they'd be even younger than Snicket. Meanwhile, the woman with hair but no beard was around before the schism, and old enough to have an infant servant.
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Post by Charlie on Oct 27, 2012 3:57:19 GMT -5
Hmm... *Clutches at straws* Theodora's sister, mother, other relative? I don't know... I just like an idea of some connection
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Post by Hermes on Oct 27, 2012 10:46:43 GMT -5
O as Theodora's previous apprentice looks very plausible - our attention is drawn to him more than once.
I do think Theodora's hair should have some significance - Ellington does call her 'the woman with the hair'. I agree it's unlikely she's the WWHBNB, on character grounds, but I'm not sure the dating causes a problem for the idea; we can't be more than ten years or so after the schism when ATWQ happens (presuming Handler hasn't retconned it again).
Monty as a fellow apprentice (if that's what he is - it's not explicit) surprises me a bit, given that in TRR he said he had been studying snakes for forty years, which should make him quite a bit older than Lemony and co. But if, as we have speculated, levels in VFD don't depend on age but just on date of recruitment, that may not matter. After all, if L did recruit Ellington, (or Moxie, or Pip and Squeak) they would have to start training now, and presumably wouldn't graduate till they were around twenty.
Haruki - I'm guessing he is not the hospital patient, since if he were he would actually be called Haruki Murakami, which would be unusual for a full VFD member - most of the references are a bit more oblique. (Of course, a number of real people have been members of VFD - C.M. Kornbluth, Vladimir Nabokov, Laura Ingalls - but I'd still find it odd to see one appearing as a direct associate of Lemony.)
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Post by Linda Rhaldeen on Oct 27, 2012 13:49:02 GMT -5
I finally got the time to read this last night; I planned on reading a couple chapters before bed and 2 1/2 hours later found myself finishing the book. I was a little disappointed at how abruptly the book ended; I'd thought we'd at least get to meet Hangfire. I guess I shouldn't be surprised, though; after all this is a Lemony Snicket book.
I'm enjoying reading everyone's speculations and especially like the one that Olaf was Theodora's previous apprentice. I'm not sure I have anything more to contribute to the conversation at the moment but I'll be thinking about it.
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Post by Dante on Oct 27, 2012 14:22:55 GMT -5
Thank you for your thoughts, Linda. It is striking that we don't actually meet the apparent main villain of the series, and I wouldn't be surprised if there's some twist in the future that takes advantage of that.
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Post by The Secretary on Oct 28, 2012 0:44:52 GMT -5
I read the entire book this morning after picking it up yesterday: morning well spent. I'll be rereading it again after my accomplices thumb through it. I'm enjoying these speculations, too... Especially the idea of O as Theodora's previous apprentice, as stated many times before.
There were so many questions raised by simply the first chapter of this book and so little answered that I think all we can do is sit tight for the next three. This is a perilous situation indeed.
I promise I had something of value to add to this conversation but my train of thought seems to have run off the rails. Perhaps after I read the book again I'll have something substantial.
EDIT: Oh, of course! Hangfire! Did anyone detect a literary reference to his name? I'd assume there's SOME sort of significance to his odd name but I cannot for the life of me figure it out. If someone's mentioned it before than could someone point me to it, please and thank you?
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Post by Charlie on Oct 28, 2012 1:03:40 GMT -5
Probably will. Prosper Lost anyone?
And, seriously, what's with the "Someplace Else" allusions?
EDIT: Oh, and is there any connection between the fact that Lemony's parents here are actually not his parents and the mention of his father's name being Jake, yet also implied as being "E." in the Family Tree. Perhaps VFD gives you fake parents that Chaperone you, up until the point at which you get to choose your chaperone. This might explain most of the discrepancies in the Family Tree...
Oh and may I ask, how the hell does Handler know Dante's house address... is there some sort of secret communication going on that we don't know about? If Handler wanted to contact Dante for the first time, the easiest way would be to sign up to 667 (One must presume that Lemony has an account), who on Earth could Handler be?
Reason for Editing: I forgot something
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Post by Dante on Oct 28, 2012 3:31:45 GMT -5
EDIT: Oh, of course! Hangfire! Did anyone detect a literary reference to his name? I'd assume there's SOME sort of significance to his odd name but I cannot for the life of me figure it out. If someone's mentioned it before than could someone point me to it, please and thank you? It's hard to detect if there's a literary reference being employed because hangfire's primary referent is as an actual technical and indeed metaphorical term: Hang fireProbably will. Prosper Lost anyone? You mean you want to know the significance of his name? I imagine that Handler came up with "The Lost Arms" first, which is a pun on a typical naming scheme for a pub or inn of "The [something] Arms." So the proprietor could therefore reasonably be presumed to have Lost as his surname, so the idea would be to give him a forename that was something he'd lost - in this case, accurately enough, his prosperity, for to "prosper" is to be successful, usually financially. Pure coincidence, I think. It looks as if the false parents were merely meant to be chaperoning him to his meeting with his proper chaperone, as we know that they're chaperones themselves. For a relatively young person this sort of arrangement is to be expected, rather than packing him off from the academy to catch the train across town on his own. Alternatively they intercepted him, but given Hector's rather inspecific reference in Chapter Thirteen to "two other chaperones," I think either way we can presume that these two had not had a very long relationship with Lemony. Without going into specifics, 667's had contacts with individuals associated with Snicket and the publishers for years. I doubt Handler is personally particularly involved.
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Post by Isadora Is a Door on Oct 28, 2012 5:26:24 GMT -5
I doubt Handler is personally particularly involved. Yeah, But we all like to think he is.
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