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Post by bandit on Aug 23, 2015 14:33:48 GMT -5
I was always under the impression that the androgynous troupe member didn't literally identify as "neither a man nor a woman", it was merely a way to describe their looks (very large and traitless). That's how all Olaf's subordinates are described: white-faced, bald, hooks for hands, etc. They are (practically) all physical caricatures rather than fully formed characters, and in this case we have a caricature of an imposing, brutish person, of which there are certainly plenty in the real world.
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Post by Hermes on Aug 23, 2015 14:51:47 GMT -5
I think the one suggestion that they are genuinely gender-ambiguous is where Sunny calls them 'Orlando'. Apart from that, they could perfectly well be what Bandit says, and I suspect the series will simply leave the gender issue out, and make them a large and scary person.
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Post by A comet crashing into Earth on Aug 23, 2015 15:44:55 GMT -5
I'm definitely in the boat of hoping for a good deal of racial and other diversity. I'm hoping for this as well, since that's one of the (many!) reasons why a television adaption could be such a treat for me. The series extremely rarely goes into detail about characters' ethnicity, and a lot of secondary/tertiary characters don't even come with descriptions of a general age range, often being described by only one or few defining physical traits. One thing, though - I'd like the Baudelaires to be presented as 'ambigously Jewish', like I believe Handler has occasionally stated his characters tend to be by default.
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zakeno
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Post by zakeno on Aug 23, 2015 15:56:03 GMT -5
I was always under the impression that the androgynous troupe member didn't literally identify as "neither a man nor a woman", it was merely a way to describe their looks (very large and traitless). That's how all Olaf's subordinates are described: white-faced, bald, hooks for hands, etc. They are (practically) all physical caricatures rather than fully formed characters, and in this case we have a caricature of an imposing, brutish person, of which there are certainly plenty in the real world. This is true of course but there's a lot of issues with having the only person who is 'neither a man nor a woman', either by looks or self-identification, also be a large brutish person who looks and sounds very monstrous by all accounts is also pretty problematic and dehumanizing. Like... characters in-book refer to this person with super incredibly transphobic dialogue like 'it' 'heshe' and 'the creature'- all of which are not okay to describe a nonbinary person as, and if the Netflix series does this, it would be a reason for me to not watch it at all (even though I adore ASOUE). Like, ya gotta understand, a lot of transpeople die every year and are called junk like that, and it's 2015, so like. That should be fixed in the series. And I am worried about it. I don't really want to get into social justice-themed arguments, though, I'm just hoping they're at least somewhat self-aware with the issue, because I'm tired of genderless characters only being monstrous, magical, or robots. But if they leave the gender mentioning out completely I also wouldn't be bothered, the books just make a big fuss out of making them look like neither a man or a woman and making that their main distinguishing trait and having protagonists insult them on this trait alone. It's the only thing I've really ever felt deeply uncomfortable/alienated by from the series, and even though I love ASOUE, I really am hoping the Netflix series doesn't follow the same path. If they cast an androgynous person for the role that's fantastic- but if the characters in-series repeatedly refer to them as 'a person who looks neither like a man nor a woman' or god forbid 'the creature/it/heshe', I know I and many other people would feel alienated enough to not watch at all. Does that make sense? I'm personally hoping they just label them a 'brute' or some completely separate from gender term. It would be so easy to just leave out the transphobia completely, and if they pushed it further and maybe let them be gender variant w/o it being transphobic or monstrous, that'd be swell. (I also quietly dream of gender-variant Quigley, but know in my heart it is a far-fetched dream, haha) (and yes yes yes to Jewish actors/actresses to play the Baudelaires!)
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Post by Linda Rhaldeen on Aug 23, 2015 17:10:25 GMT -5
I have to admit, I had not realized the problematic portrayal of this character back when I read the books; if I remember right, they were killed off in book 3 which means that their scenes would have been written in 1999. I never even heard the word trans until the mid to late 2000s, and it's only in the last several years that I have gotten to know trans people and felt like I've begun to understand them, something I think is also true of society at large. In the last 16 years, huge strides have been made, and a character whose treatment seemed innocuous then is definitely not now, so I have high hopes for the Netflix series treating the character in a sensitive manner.
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Post by bandit on Aug 23, 2015 17:32:11 GMT -5
The androgynous character is actually abandoned in the hospital fire by Count Olaf in book 8, which shows how much Olaf cared about any of his henchmen. I also don't recall any insulting terms used by characters (creature? heshe?) but although I'm willing to admit a lack of remembrance, surely they were only used by Olaf and his people. In that case, it just further cements their cruelty, not proposes that kind of treatment as the norm.
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zakeno
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Post by zakeno on Aug 23, 2015 17:55:35 GMT -5
The androgynous character is actually abandoned in the hospital fire by Count Olaf in book 8, which shows how much Olaf cared about any of his henchmen. I also don't recall any insulting terms used by characters (creature? heshe?) but although I'm willing to admit a lack of remembrance, surely they were only used by Olaf and his people. In that case, it just further cements their cruelty, not proposes that kind of treatment as the norm. Nah, it isn't just Olaf and co, I know the Baudelaires/Mr. Poe/other protagonists used terms like 'it' 'heshe' 'creature' etc as well. I don't have the books on hand so I can't cite specific examples, but I just re-read them last week so I know for sure it happened frequently. I'm not really arguing whether the character was problematic because they were, and other characters reactions to this character even more so. I'm just quietly hoping the Netflix series doesn't repeat the problem. Obviously most of the problem came out of when the books were written which was long before transgender rights really hit the mainstream (which was very recently, like... last and this year, recently, ha). But now that it is a good 15 years later, I just want the new series to not make the same mistakes Anyway, does anyone know what studio Netflix generally gets its VFX done at? I know for animated series Dreamworks TV and Titmouse handles a lot of series... but I don't know VFX. I'm curious to know where they're planning on outsourcing a good majority of the visuals to, since it's likely to have a lot of FX-heavy stuff and generally Netflix has quite high production values. I'm excited to see what they are able to do, if the 'fake' trailer was any hint at what can be done. So much better than the scary CG baby of the movie, haha! (Granted, Sunny was only CG for one or two shots in the film.... but those shots still are firmly implanted in my memory on how uncanny valley they felt...)
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Post by gliquey on Aug 23, 2015 18:13:43 GMT -5
The androgynous character is actually abandoned in the hospital fire by Count Olaf in book 8, which shows how much Olaf cared about any of his henchmen. I also don't recall any insulting terms used by characters (creature? heshe?) but although I'm willing to admit a lack of remembrance, surely they were only used by Olaf and his people. In that case, it just further cements their cruelty, not proposes that kind of treatment as the norm. I think I recall one [or more] of the Baudelaires in TWW going "He's awake! She's awake! It's awake!" or something like that, but I think that's just Handler trying to find a new way to emphasise the character's unique characteristic. As with all of Olaf's henchpeople, it just seems to work well if the character only has one relevant feature [the bald man who also had a long nose has always been too much for me] - although this is only my opinion and I can understand if others grow weary of Handler continually going "look at this troupe member! Did I mention we don't know their gender?" "Creature" also sounds familiar - I think Snicket described the androgynous person as a "lumbering creature" in the scene in TWW where the Baudelaires steal the sailboat. Gender is a very sensitive issue and, if I recall correctly, Handler wasn't doing too bad with it. I'm fairly sure he mostly uses gender neutral terms (e.g. "salesperson", not "salesman") and I've heard people talk about Violet as a stereotype-defying girl, with her inventions, intelligence and active involvement in rescuing the others (and Klaus is a boy who isn't afraid to show emotion, often being the first of the Baudelaires to become teary-eyed; and we all know how willing Snicket is to weep and what a hopeless romantic he was). In a book featuring Carmelita [TPP?], Snicket even mocks the word "tomboy" and its negative (transphobic?) connotations. I think this essay talks about gender in ASOUE a fair bit, although I haven't read it for a while. I don't think having a trans villain [if we can even call the assistant that] is inherently transphobic; being trans doesn't make a person ipso facto good, so there must be bad trans people and why can't the henchperson in this series be one of them? One could perhaps claim that fiction in general portrays trans people as villains far too often (I don't really know whether this is true or not), but we don't have enough information (only one character) to claim that Handler specifically is misrepresenting the trans community. But I think this all misses the basic point of the character: they have a gender [or at least a sex], but we never find out what it is. The eccentricity and interest of the character derives from this lack of basic knowledge about them, rather than mocking people who don't identify as binary male/female. No-one even asks the person whether they have a gender (I think the closest we get is Violet, or perhaps Klaus, going "Sir? Madam?" in TWW), so how can we say they are trans? As far as I am aware - although I could just be ignorant - transgender people must self-identify as such, rather than having the label thrust upon them. EDIT: I'd just like to add that I hope I'm not offending anyone by saying the above, and am always interested to hear people's thoughts on gender. I'm very open to changing my mind and saying "hang on, that is transphobic" if I feel convinced by anyone's arguments. I wasn't genderblind when I first read the series but I never had any conscious thoughts towards gender-related stereotypes when reading; at the time, the genders and sexes of the Baudelaires, Olaf, the androgynous character etc. were irrelevant. So conversations like these are often new territory for me, and I'm forming my opinions on the spot.
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zakeno
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Post by zakeno on Aug 23, 2015 18:27:25 GMT -5
Yikes, I'm kind of sorry I brought up this topic, I didn't think there would be so much argumentative discussion on the topic. Whether they are trans or not, calling someone androgynous it/a creature/heshe is not going to fly in 2015. kinda full-stop there, in my opinion there's not really room for argument in how it should be treated in-series if they don't want to lose a fair chunk of viewership (and probably be snarled at by Tumblr, but I'm not crazy about what Tumblr snarls about. Still, when Tumblr goes in an uproar about things, it does dramatically effect viewership and executive decisions. I only know specific examples in the animation industry since I'm... in the animation industry, but it definitely can get a series discontinued, especially as series directed at a younger audience). Either way, it's something they need to at least be aware of, both for their own sakes as well as for the comfort of some of its viewers. (and yeah I like how ASOUE tackles gender on a binary basis at least- when I grew up as a girl and before I realized I was agender and was just blindly uncomfortable with this specific villain being called an it, Violet being an inventor was a huuuuuuuge inspiration for me! I like that there are so many fantastic female characters in ASOUE! Here's to hoping the casting reflects the diversity of rad ladies in the series! )
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Post by bandit on Aug 23, 2015 18:46:17 GMT -5
In any case, the character never played a huge part in the story and I think it's unlikely an instance will come up in the Netflix series where someone might even have the need to describe them. Within the context of the books, such descriptions were generally either meant to reflect the beastliness of their figure or were for comic relief (like SNL's Pat character), and neither of those are things that tend to translate to the screen.
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Post by Cafe SalMONAlla on Aug 23, 2015 21:07:12 GMT -5
Whether they are trans or not, calling someone androgynous it/a creature/heshe is not going to fly in 2015. I completely agree here, and sincerely hope that Netflix doesn't do this.
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Post by etartsigamstrauss on Aug 23, 2015 23:37:46 GMT -5
I hope that in the Netflix series they keep the Baudelaire children equal when it comes to saving themselves from situations. In the books it was very fair and I feel like there wasn't one Baudelaire who always saved the day. The children's talents were all equally used so I hope Netflix keeps it this way and doesn't just have one "hero". (I'm still mad about how in the 2004 movie Klaus was the one to make and use the grappling hook.)
I also hope that the soundtrack for this series is as good as the soundtrack from the movie. I absolutely adore the movie soundtrack and I think it was my favourite part of the movie.
I really hope the fashion is taken from the early 20th century as that's how I've always pictured the clothing from ASOUE. Helquist's illustrations have definitely influenced this but generally I feel that ASOUE has more of an early 20th century vibe going on, at least to me.
I'm placing so much faith in this Netflix series because I feel like the movie didn't do the series justice so I'm hoping Netflix can give me something that I'm happy with. If they somehow bring back Meryl Streep for Aunt Josephine I would be over the moon...
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Post by A comet crashing into Earth on Aug 24, 2015 1:35:23 GMT -5
I hope that in the Netflix series they keep the Baudelaire children equal when it comes to saving themselves from situations. In the books it was very fair and I feel like there wasn't one Baudelaire who always saved the day. The children's talents were all equally used so I hope Netflix keeps it this way and doesn't just have one "hero". (I'm still mad about how in the 2004 movie Klaus was the one to make and use the grappling hook.) What? I haven't watched the movie for at least a year, but still I've seen it often enough that I'm horrified to not even remember this... but come to think of it, yes, Violet was acting in the play at that point, so it must've been him. Well, that's terrible. It's fine that they switch talents as a gimmick in TMM, but this must be just somebody thinking "We can't have a girl climbing a tower with an improvised grappling hook". Audibly sigh. -_- Just for the record, I agree that they will have to be careful with the androgynous creature. I think it's important that they somehow make a distinction between their being androgynous and their being a creature - a distinction which I think the original books failed to make. They did very well on other kinds of diversity, though. I always loved how so many characters subtly didn't care about gender expectations, and how nobody ever thought that was strange. You know there's something wrong with the world when you wish it was more like the Averse.
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Post by Dante on Aug 24, 2015 3:17:45 GMT -5
Regarding how Violet and Klaus were handled at the climax of the ASoUE movie, then while I definitely think there's some gender stereotyping there - Klaus does the rescuing, Violet has to sit around passively marrying a monster with no room for escape (though the original "solution" was at least alluded to) - then I think to a degree it was also an unfortunate product of circumstances, which was that the movie also wanted an action scene at the climax, and it wanted Klaus to be doing something rather than just sitting around. I don't think it's a coincidence that the movie's handling of that problem results in some fairly stereotypical division of the action between genders, but I can also see how it would have felt like the obvious way to divide things up. I hope the Netflix series handles things differently; just have Klaus be struggling and gagged by whoever's grabbed him at the side of the stage!
As for the enormous androgynous assistant, it has struck me that the character flat-out doesn't work any more, yes. I'm not going to blame Handler for how the character was handled in 1999 as that was a long time ago and I don't believe that he'd create a character like that today, but the Netflix series will need to handle them differently. It's always struck me that maybe Handler wrote out the important-looking man with warts on his face from TBB - who is responsible for Olaf's escape and gets away with the rest of the classic troupe members but is never mentioned in any subsequent books - because stigmatising him for his appearance was kind of unfortunate, whereas with the bald man then his baldness is ordinary enough to be neutral and it's his personality that's awful. (Incidentally, as Bandit pointed out, he's not just a bald man - he's a bald man with a long nose... and in fact in TBB he's a bald man with a long nose who always wears a long robe.) Meanwhile, the hook-handed man and white-faced women become much more sympathetic in their final appearances.
I assume that the intention with the androgynous assistant was that Handler wanted one of Olaf's assistants to be a brute force figure, a kind of ogre, and the character's lack of obvious gender was a way of dehumanising them - you just cannot do that now, flat-out. Frankly, the character also feels like a stigmatisation of an individual with learning and communication disabilities. If you could decouple the androgyny from the brutish aspect, that would probably be ideal, but I'm not sure that it's possible - though in a visual medium, it would be a lot easier to simply never mention the gender issue as it would be a lot easier to avoid pronouns. It's a tough one. They might have to either lose the androgyny or lose the brutishness - and the character will practically have to be ascribed more intelligence anyway, to my mind. Maybe their distinguishing feature could instead be the character's muteness? Have a contrast between their enormous presence and a voiceless, even stealthy personality? "The silent one." That's just off the top of my head, mind.
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Post by Strangely on Aug 24, 2015 7:17:08 GMT -5
The other thing is that these books are implied to be taking place in the past rather than the present, so you may want to consider that these characters wouldn't really know any better regardless.
But truthfully I didn't really associate "Orlando's" appearance with her being a monster. As a character she was always doing monstrous things often working as the "muscle" for Olaf. I ultimately say "she" because I've never really thought this character was truly transgender. I think the Marvelous Marriage illustration and the movie depicted this character as an ugly woman rather than someone legitimately transgender (Which that's probably just as offending at the end of the day).
I'd feel worse for the character, but at the end of the day all of the henchman are nameless. They're only ever identified by physical traits and usually the descriptions are pretty insulting. To me this feels like DH was merely running out of interesting traits for the henchman and just finally came up with this. Though it's possible he was just trying to be cheeky and imply that to children a genderless person might be scary. At the end of the day I have a hard time really assigning malice to the portrayal because I really don't know the intention behind it. This could just be a character that got away from him. Appearing in only like three books it's not hard to see why this character got swept into the generically evil and undeveloped pile of characters.
Really though I'm hoping the Netflix show assigns names to these characters. It's a little dated to identify characters solely by ugly characteristics, I feel like they'd be better off making these characters less one dimensional. Adding a back story to the white faced women and the hook handed man was the best thing DH ever did for those troupe characters, so the others should get something.
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