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Post by Reba on Feb 7, 2017 15:23:36 GMT -5
wait so this isn't about abortion ...That's not very nice to say, especially since you know I think it has everything to do with it. From my point of view: Having a soul makes you a person + Fetuses have souls have souls from conception = Fetuses are people. Fetuses are people + killing people should never be allowed, under any circumstances = I think abortion should never be allowed under any circumstances. As I said to frindle, I feel really badly about being rude and tearing down other people's arguments. So, I'm going to try to limit myself to answering questions about my own stance and the thought process of how I arrived at what I believe. That way, A) I'm not just yelling at people for disagreeing with me, and B) if nobody asks me what I think then nobody has to hear me go on about it. no i get it. it doesn't matter what happens to women in the real world because they will still have their glorious Souls, whereas the fetuses won't.
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Post by Charles Vane on Feb 7, 2017 15:28:26 GMT -5
I agree - the reality and legality of these situations is always different from any morals, no matter how true those morals may or may not be. Those values you just underlined are the ones I wish were applied - where we assume from the get go in any medical procedure that the best-case scenario is saving as many lives as possible, and moving from there. We do that in some cases nowadays, but not in all or even most of them. There are many abortions currently where both could have been left alone and both would have survived. A pregnant woman who would survive her pregnancy, trying to terminate the fetus herself, because she doesn't have access to a medical abortion, would be committing murder. If she wouldn't survive her pregnancy, doctors should attempt to save both lives; in situations where doctors are trying to save both, but lose one hopeless cause to save the other life, that would be tragic but understandable. That is the situation I'd hope to create, legally, to minimize death. yes there are many instances where if a woman didn't have an abortion, both would survive. and there are cases where someone cant get an abortion for whatever reason so they have the baby. however, abortion still needs to be allowed because what im saying is there are many cases where the fetus isn't going to survive because whether it is a part of a womans body or not, it is in the body and she doesn't want it there. so while it would have survived without intervention, intervention is going to happen. im not saying looking at it this way isn't bleak, it is. under this logic, yes lots of people would be killing a life that could otherwise survive. but once they decide to do that, do you want both of them to die or only one? i guess this could get dangerous, we could just say well if people are going to kill anyway then why have laws. but i think you can understand how this situation is different. theres no other situation like this where there's two lives in one body.
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Post by Charles Vane on Feb 7, 2017 15:29:50 GMT -5
...That's not very nice to say, especially since you know I think it has everything to do with it. From my point of view: Having a soul makes you a person + Fetuses have souls have souls from conception = Fetuses are people. Fetuses are people + killing people should never be allowed, under any circumstances = I think abortion should never be allowed under any circumstances. As I said to frindle, I feel really badly about being rude and tearing down other people's arguments. So, I'm going to try to limit myself to answering questions about my own stance and the thought process of how I arrived at what I believe. That way, A) I'm not just yelling at people for disagreeing with me, and B) if nobody asks me what I think then nobody has to hear me go on about it. no i get it. it doesn't matter what happens to women in the real world because they will still have their glorious Souls, whereas the fetuses won't. well the women's souls are already tainted because those women had sex.
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Post by Charles Vane on Feb 7, 2017 15:35:59 GMT -5
like using abortion to get rid of a specific gender or race is awful, but one argument i saw says that men are so concerned about regulating women's dishwashers not because of all the fetuses that are aborted but because some of them would have been men. the abhorrent thought to them is that men could be killed before they are born and that they don't get a say. because in that scenario men don't have any agency at all, something that is completely foreign to a lot of men.
im not saying this in response to anything. it was just something i thought of.
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Post by Charles Vane on Feb 7, 2017 15:56:48 GMT -5
like using abortion to get rid of a specific gender or race is awful, but one argument i saw says that men are so concerned about regulating women's dishwashers not because of all the fetuses that are aborted but because some of them would have been men. the abhorrent thought to them is that men could be killed before they are born and that they don't get a say. because in that scenario men don't have any agency at all, something that is completely foreign to a lot of men. im not saying this in response to anything. it was just something i thought of. That's interesting - I think I remember hearing about the situation in china. Literally all the aborted fetuses were female. Awful. some people see having an abortion when a baby has a condition like down syndrome as another way to try to eliminate a group of people. i honestly have no idea. i don't think its as selfish and unfeeling as detractors portray. but im not unconvinced that it's a form of ableism. when people with disabilities talk about the problems they face, its a whole world that i have little knowledge of.
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Post by Charles Vane on Feb 7, 2017 16:02:35 GMT -5
no i get it. it doesn't matter what happens to women in the real world because they will still have their glorious Souls, whereas the fetuses won't. You've over exaggerated a bit from what I said. I said it doesn't matter as much. Which sounds awful, but being killed is a bit of a bigger deal to me. I believe that the loss of life is so wrong that unless another life is at stake, it's not even a question. But, as Nicole said, any woman going through a situation where she is considering abortion needs support, and comfort. Her problems didn't go away. But, in most cases, her life is not literally in danger. Like, her actual life. Not that her life will be ruined by the child, but that she will not literally die in most cases. (Nicole, I completely agree with the whole lawlessness thing you brought up - and yes, this situation is unique. About the "tainted souls" thing, though - don't be ridiculous. That's a statement that I completely disagree with. That's a potshot, and rude, and you know it.) her health and life is most certainly in danger if she doesn't have access to a safe procedure. i was joking about the comment i made to bandit. kind of. i do believe pregnancy is treated as a consequence and punishment for sex that largely affects women and not men though. but you had nothing to say to that because you were too concerned about the souls of fetuses. that was a potshot.
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Post by Reba on Feb 7, 2017 16:44:37 GMT -5
some people see having an abortion when a baby has a condition like down syndrome as another way to try to eliminate a group of people. i honestly have no idea. i don't think its as selfish and unfeeling as detractors portray. but im not unconvinced that it's a form of ableism. when people with disabilities talk about the problems they face, its a whole world that i have little knowledge of. it's far different from eugenics because that's based on the naive belief (or evil excuse) that disabilities are always genetic, so actions like the potentially justified abortions of future down syndrome babies can be extended to objectively inhumane measures, like sterilizing or even murdering disabled populations.
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Post by Reba on Feb 7, 2017 16:47:45 GMT -5
I know everyone, myself included, is better at explaining and being polite in person
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Abortions
Feb 8, 2017 1:42:57 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by Charlie on Feb 8, 2017 1:42:57 GMT -5
Yeah bandit is kinda just blanket a dick lol
This debate reminds me of this ep of greys where addison is like "izzy look after these 5 babies all night" and all the babies are like dying all night and stuff, so izzy is having a meltdown but she hasnt slept for like a week so she accidentally falls asleep at like 3am, so then shes like OMG bc when she wakes up the cutest baby has died and it turns out it was gonna die anyway and addison knew all along bc it was born premature and didnt have lungs or anything. And it turned out that all along the baby was gonna die, and addison was like "babies die all the time, like don't even worry fam" and it was eyeopening bc like idk it was just a really emotionally manipulative episode.
.... yeah
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Abortions
Feb 9, 2017 17:57:16 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by Grace on Feb 9, 2017 17:57:16 GMT -5
like using abortion to get rid of a specific gender or race is awful, but one argument i saw says that men are so concerned about regulating women's dishwashers not because of all the fetuses that are aborted but because some of them would have been men. the abhorrent thought to them is that men could be killed before they are born and that they don't get a say. because in that scenario men don't have any agency at all, something that is completely foreign to a lot of men. im not saying this in response to anything. it was just something i thought of. YEP.
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Post by Charlie on Mar 11, 2017 8:38:32 GMT -5
k
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Post by Charlie on Jun 25, 2022 2:30:18 GMT -5
Some of my posts in this thread are cringe (see above) and some are based, and that is ok!
With the overturning of Roe v. Wade and right-wing uprisings globally, how is everyone feeling?
I live in Australia, which recently (fortunately) had a political shift towards the left, but I appreciate that in some places, USA's political shift away from reproductive safety may be replicated.
Also, if you are like Quisby and don't believe in safe abortions, how do you feel being on the wrong side of history?
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Post by Violent BUN Fortuna on Jun 25, 2022 4:12:57 GMT -5
Horrified but unsurprised, which is something I feel distressingly often.
I'm in the UK so not yet directly hurt by this but with the things our government has been doing/attempting to do, I certainly don't feel any of our rights and freedoms are safe or should be taken for granted.
At the moment though I'm mostly just appalled/angry/sad for everyone in America whose lives are going to be utterly ruined by this, for those who will die because they can’t access safe abortions, and for everyone who will simply live with a great deal more fear than they previously did.
I hope that the fightback will eventually restore the right to safe and legal abortions, but it's not a fight that should have to be fought again, and it’s enraging to think of all the lives this ruling will destroy before any progress is made.
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Post by Isadora Is a Door on Jun 25, 2022 4:18:40 GMT -5
but you can't abort an 80 year old. which is the point I was making. Its fun when you read back old discussions you've had and think 'thats a really rubbish example' about something that you yourself said.
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Post by bryan on Jun 25, 2022 5:44:34 GMT -5
yeah I'm glad we have a (seemingly) site wide consciousness that we're bound to bump into our awful takes of yore but that we change. anyway the news is very disappointing. right-wing uprisings globally this bit's interesting. I would love to imagine that this is a last conservative gasp before a "newer" generation gains power but radicalization seems to be amongst all age groups, and yeah all over the world. which feels insane.
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