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Post by Uncle Algernon on Jan 2, 2019 7:17:13 GMT -5
and it was exactly like in the books (safe for the side-character scenes maybe) You say that like that's not the biggest issue… The Baudelaires definitely surviving and Beatrice the younger and all that, that's all fine. The problem is spelling out that the Quagmiresget a completely happy ending and the Islanders survived and so on.
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Post by Groge on Jan 2, 2019 8:03:32 GMT -5
This episode was fantastic. Very emotional and the ending with Lemony and Beatrice was a great scene to go out on. I've got the blues now knowing that it is all over. I'm not sure what to do with myself now. I need more!
The Ishmael revelation was shocking but quite welcome. The God "creator" metaphor ties in nicely with the other Bible themes as well as giving us the origin of VFD which the books lacked.
I did notice they skipped quite a few things from the book but they weren't really missed. We got the idea about Ish wanting to keep everyone on the island and how he forced them to do things without forcing them.
The sugar bowl though! What does everyone think about the hybrid sugar revelation? Bit of a hybrid of 2 popular theories it seems. Some fans think it's just sugar and others say it's horseradish. In this adaption it is both.
I wonder how much input Handler had in this. I still believe though that it was purely made up for the show. Even if Handler was involved I imagine the creators just asked him "...but if there had to physically had to be something in there that is a straight forward enough answer then what should it be?"
Seems a bit strange that the noble volunteers would want a hybrid sugar for tea when they like their tea bitter. That means they would rather enjoy tea than be immune to a deadly disease. I suppose it's about enjoying life rather than being like Esme for example and living in fear (although she likes it sweet so I guess she can enjoy her tea and be safe). Plus the MM can only really be found in the grotto so it's not like it's really going to endanger you very often.
Oh, and I almost forgot how awesome the Bombinating Beast statue was!!
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Post by lemonmeringue on Jan 2, 2019 8:29:18 GMT -5
and it was exactly like in the books (safe for the side-character scenes maybe) You say that like that's not the biggest issue… The Baudelaires definitely surviving and Beatrice the younger and all that, that's all fine. The problem is spelling out that the Quigley get a completely happy ending and the Islanders survived and so on. It is? I actually had the impression that caomplains mostly about the Baudelaires' ending, as the book didn't specifically say they survived, and with the happy music and all that.
As for Quigley and the others... it does make sense to me, and feel completed (although I had rather have a different ending for Larry!) - especially with the Great Unknown being changed to a more specific thing, and Kit saying the Quagmires, Fiona and Fernald swimming towards it wouldn't make the slightest bit of sense after that, and with the change of Widdershins story and their own relationship, there had to be something for Fiona and Fernald. That leaves the other henchmen - and, as the Bald Man and Orlando didn't die earlier on, they were with the white-faced women who were assumed by Lemony to have went back to showbiz. So it all fits together.
Otherwise, the Sugar Bowl reveal left me awfully underwhelmed, but there it is. Meh. I loved to see the statue though!
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Post by Liam R. Findlay on Jan 2, 2019 8:30:44 GMT -5
I had a little chat with Joe Tracz last night, and he said how there was always going to be sugar in the sugar bowl, and it was always going to be fungus-related. The main internal debates were how subtly this was going to be revealed. The bitter tea makes sense, because horseradish sugar would be bitter.
Apparently Daniel never revealed if that was the same solution he had in the novel! I wouldn't be surprised if it were slightly different, since the novels don't ever imply absolute immunity. The End novel does suggest that Beatrice hid some of a horseradish hybrid in a vessel, though.
On the subject of inconsistencies with V.F.D. time-scales and details, apparently Daniel was the least precious about keeping things canon and consistent. Part of the fun of the Snicket universe is how murky and unreliable everything is- you don't know what to believe, and it's kept us discussing things for many years!
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Post by Uncle Algernon on Jan 2, 2019 8:38:28 GMT -5
- especially with the Great Unknown being changed to a more specific thing, and Kit saying the Quagmires, Fiona and Fernald swimming towards it wouldn't make the slightest bit of sense after that,
But the change to the Great Unknown is itself part of the problem. and with the change of Widdershins story and their own relationship, there had to be something for Fiona and Fernald.
Why so? Couldn't we just have left them with their departure in TGG? Spelling out that they definitely met up with the Captain is going a step too far in "everyone had a happily ever after" territory, I think, even if it was a chance to hear Widdershins speak. Along the same lines, I could have done without an explanation of what happened to the outrigger, even framed as it was as a "rumor". Similarly, just because the Quagmires now couldn't disappear by way of Great Unknown due to the Great Unknown no longer being all that unknown, that doesn't mean you had to show them happily reunited. You want my idea of how to wrap up the Quagmires is a not-too-dark, but more Snicket-appropriate fashion? Have Lemony speak from the ruins of the crashed Self-Sustaining Mobile Home, which crashed somewhere in the Hinterlands. Mention that no human remains were fortunately found in the wreckage, but that he doesn't know what happened to Hector, Duncan and Isadora; he explains that his task is to research the Baudelaires, not the Quagmires… and with perhaps a hint (just a hint) of a smile, he adds that there is a certain young sleuth already on the Quagmire case. Cut to Quigley exploring the wreckage and finding a mysterious couplet. And that's it for the Quagmires. (Oh, and, while we're discussing our fanfictionnish "how I would have done it" scenarios… an alternate fate for Larry? Do tell!) On the subject of inconsistencies with V.F.D. time-scales and details, apparently Daniel was the least precious about keeping things canon and consistent. Part of the fun of the Snicket universe is how murky and unreliable everything is- you don't know what to believe, and it's kept us discussing things for many years! Fair enough, but Ishmael's speech about founding V.F.D. sure didn't scream "unreliable" to me, though I suppose it's plausible he might have been lying. I think it would have caused a lot fewer headaches to just have him admit to being the former leader of V.F.D. before the Schism, with perhaps an implication that he might have founded it, or know who did, but nothing solid there.
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Post by lemonmeringue on Jan 2, 2019 9:06:00 GMT -5
As for the Great Unknown, I think that's very much hinting at (maybe even preparing for) atwq and while I'm not sure if I may have liked a different interpetion better (my own is a bombinating beast shaped submarine) I don't think it's bad as it is. I understand why many don't like the ending, I really do, but personally I do like it. I do agree, your suggestion would be better, but now it is the way it is, and I am unhappy about quite some choices made for this season (or the show in general) but with the changes as they have been made, I think it wrapped up neatly. Especially with the Beatrice Letter involved - as I have said before, I am particularly happy about the Baudelaires' (and Beatrice's and Lemony's) ending.
On the other hand, I do think the others were fairly open - the endings for he Quagmires, Fiona and Fernald, and the troupe were, for me, suggested endings, hints and bits. Bittersweet, too, and still open with much too come. The Quagmires, after all did reunite even in the books, though at another time (or maybe that was the time of the books, we have no idea when the scene in the end happened) and we can't know what happened to them. Same for the others - we don't know how the reunion with Widdershins went, or what happened to the troupe after that "one night" - but at least there is a faint, gentle hope.
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Post by ryantrimble457 on Jan 2, 2019 12:28:30 GMT -5
Also, we know the Baudelaires survive the trip back to the city because the books reference them as adults a few times--most exactly, Sunny talking on a radio show as a chef.
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Post by ryantrimble457 on Jan 2, 2019 12:30:13 GMT -5
As for the Great Unknown, I think that's very much hinting at (maybe even preparing for) atwq and while I'm not sure if I may have liked a different interpetion better (my own is a bombinating beast shaped submarine) I don't think it's bad as it is. I understand why many don't like the ending, I really do, but personally I do like it. I do agree, your suggestion would be better, but now it is the way it is, and I am unhappy about quite some choices made for this season (or the show in general) but with the changes as they have been made, I think it wrapped up neatly. Especially with the Beatrice Letter involved - as I have said before, I am particularly happy about the Baudelaires' (and Beatrice's and Lemony's) ending. On the other hand, I do think the others were fairly open - the endings for he Quagmires, Fiona and Fernald, and the troupe were, for me, suggested endings, hints and bits. Bittersweet, too, and still open with much too come. The Quagmires, after all did reunite even in the books, though at another time (or maybe that was the time of the books, we have no idea when the scene in the end happened) and we can't know what happened to them. Same for the others - we don't know how the reunion with Widdershins went, or what happened to the troupe after that "one night" - but at least there is a faint, gentle hope. Very much agree. Besides, the series is extremely gloomy, but one of the main plot points was always being able to find moments of calm and love within that gloom! Who's to say that the sub didn't immediately sink or the theatre burn down? But at least for a moment, everyone got to be with those they love.
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Post by Hermes on Jan 2, 2019 12:52:50 GMT -5
Also, we know the Baudelaires survive the trip back to the city because the books reference them as adults a few times--most exactly, Sunny talking on a radio show as a chef. I wouldn't assume Sunny was an adult when this happened - in fact, she can't be, given that Beatrice writes about it when she's no more than ten, and there's not more than two years between them. But yes - Klaus later regretted not warning Monty, and Violet either did or didn't meet Female Finnish Pirates on her third return to Briny Beach - but that implies there was a third return.
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Post by lemonmeringue on Jan 2, 2019 13:18:53 GMT -5
Sunny wasn't an adult, but she was definitely alive.
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Post by ryantrimble457 on Jan 2, 2019 15:55:13 GMT -5
Oops, lemonmeringue, Hermes, it's been a while since I read the source. I think I just assumed adult!
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Post by Dante on Jan 2, 2019 17:13:33 GMT -5
Interesting that so many people find the ending to be so difficult to swallow. I quite enjoyed it; but that may have a lot to do with the fact that I don't really regard the Netflix adaptation as faithful, as canon; as an adaptation, in short. I've long expected that it would provide its own answers to the mysteries of the series, answers tighter and more coherent by necessity than the books, and therefore incompatible with the books. I don't ask everything be the same as the books, because I understand that the books are complex in terms of their formation and exhibit both great assets and great flaws; I only ask that the Netflix series execute its ideas well.
I think that the decision to make The End a single episode was not ultimately as wise a decision as we may have anticipated. It is abbreviated; it's restructured to accomplish that abbreviation; but much of it is too brief. The island society is less developed, skated over only briefly; the moral dilemmas, and more importantly the failure, the internal hollowness, of Ishmael's safe society are not sufficiently developed. Ishmael is actually a considerably more morally ambiguous figure, whereas in the book then, by the end, he's little more than a villain. Tying his canon backstory to the principal of Prufrock Prep. is surprisingly elegant, as is linking this to the formation of V.F.D. I agree that this is a very recent development, indeed too recent; but for the purposes of the Netflix series I think it succeeds in providing a more personal resolution to the Baudelaires' questions, rather than the story of V.F.D. and all other plots being something essentially outside and remote from them. Of course, the latter was a major theme of the books; but it is not a major theme of the show. Considering this, the direction taken by developments in The End are logical. Everything is about the Baudelaires; rather than nothing being about the Baudelaires.
On that note, I have much praise for the integration of TBL material - or a nod to it, anyway, in the most general sense. Here there is no sense that young Beatrice is searching for her long-lost family - or if she is, it's a different long-lost family member, is it not? She is a suitably enigmatic presence at the beginning of the story; and she facilitates an unambiguously happy ending, with all long-lost families reunited. It's saccharine, perhaps; but I got what I wanted... which was the Baudelaires encountering the F.F.P. on their way to Briny Beach for the third time. Happy ending? Bah! Validation for having read the BBRE is the ending I deserved.
...Also, the idea that Handler had a single, unchanging idea for the solution to the sugar bowl mystery in the books is to my mind untenable; indeed, it's the very reason why no suggested theory has ever stood up to scrutiny. So I accepted that the Netflix series would have its own answer; I only ask that it be internally coherent. Unfortunately, it's an absolute disaster. But I develop this elsewhere.
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Post by imlarryyourwaiter on Jan 2, 2019 17:17:11 GMT -5
I don’t find the sugar bowl reveal underwhelming at all. If one where to have both the Sugar Bowl and the Medusoid Mycelium, they would have the most power of anyone.
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Post by Uncle Algernon on Jan 2, 2019 18:48:05 GMT -5
as is linking this to the formation of V.F.D. I agree that this is a very recent development, indeed too recent; Yes, about that; after considering the matter, I have formed a potential solution that makes the timeline make a bit more sense (another wrinkle I hadn't thought of earlier is the White-Faced Woman, especially the Netflix series' older versions of them, already being orphaned as a child in a Sinister Duo scheme), thanks to a bit of imaginary dialogue I'm going to assume happened and would have beautifully tied into the gag from TGG. Ishmael: "(…) Your parents had that gleam, and Count Olaf… and his parents… and their grandparents…" Klaus: "All of these people attended Prufrock Prep?" Violet: "…How old are you?" Ishmael: *shrugs* "Old enough."
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Post by gothicarchiesfan on Jan 2, 2019 19:04:31 GMT -5
I don't see any reason why we(the audience) should take Ishmael at his word. It contradicts almost every other piece of knowledge we have about the show's V.F.D. and Ishmael in the show has proven himself to be an adroit liar.
It's not like the show even explicitly confirms whether he was telling the truth or not, either by dialogue from other characters and or flashbacks. Olaf does mention knowing Ishmael as the person who got him into V.F.D. but not if he created it.
We ultimately only have Ishmael's word for it, which I quite like as it leaves it all up to interpretation. I'm not totally sure if it was a deliberate choice not, but given that Daniel Handler co-wrote the episode I'm going to guess it was.
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