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Post by Joe Villazoa on Mar 9, 2019 11:58:32 GMT -5
Yeah, yeah. I was joking. Whoops sorry, I guess tone doesn't transmit to well through typing. I dont have as much time today so I will keep my analysis short and to only two chapters. Here is my analysis of chapters 9 and 10. Chapter 9Very nice snake based illustartion again by Helquist, the snake noose is quite fitting. "If only we'd found evidence and proof earlier(...) Then maybe we could have saved Uncle Monty's life" Doubtful since Monty already suspected Stephano was there for nefarious purposes, and since the children really only had one chance to explain to Monty who Olaf was and were too shocked by his suspicions to actually do it. The reason Monty was killed by Stephano was not because of a lack of proof that he was Olaf, rather they just never had the chance to actually tell Monty that it was Olaf. "But all that research could take days," days really!? Im pretty sure Violet only wants you to find books with direct mention and information on the Mamba du Mal not just every reptile book in the Reptile Room. You'd think that Klaus being such an avid reader could deal with that in a day if he put his mind to it but maybe I just have the wrong idea of how large the Reptile Room is and how many books it has, then again im just being nitpicky. Why is the HHM fighting Olaf on the carpooling conundrum, he could just agree with him and tell Poe that the kids can go in his car with Stephano. Also does Olaf's troupe really have an ambulance at their disposal? It is supposedly stolen and yet they had quick access to it once Stephano found that he had to call one of the members of his troupe to pretend to be a doctor. Stephano's room is quite messy and makes it seem as if he spent considerable time in there, though I was under the impression that he spent most of the time following the Baudelaires to stop them talking to Monty and sitting on the chair outside to make sure they dont go and tell Monty at night. Really Klaus a Trojan horse is your idea of a distraction at a time like this? For a very intelligent 12 year old he often has the stupidest ideas from his research, then again I suppose a wooden horse would be pretty distracting. Chapter 10
I often find myself contradicting the traditional morals of fairy tales just like the boy who cried wolf and im glad Lemony agrees with me on that count, also I cant be the only person who thinks that little red riding hood had the most irresponsible parents in the history of fairy tales, I mean to send your young daughter to walk through the forest alone is insanity. Does Stephano know about the IDV because he actually did research on it when he became Monty's assistant or is he familiar with it because of its involvement if any in VFD? I love Poe's little freakout at the IDV supposedly attacking Sunny, Mr Poe has his moments aside from his bumbling incompetence at managing the Baudelaire guardians. And then Stephano ruins his whole scheme. This is why im conflicted as to his acting talents, I mean to constantly overstate one point in his identity (that he doesnt know about snakes) then go and talk at length about snakes is idiotic, I guess pride does go before a fall. Aha might be one of Sunny's most comprehensible early phrase since its a very commonly used expression and doesn't actually require much explanation.
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Post by Dante on Mar 9, 2019 16:15:46 GMT -5
Does Stephano know about the IDV because he actually did research on it when he became Monty's assistant or is he familiar with it because of its involvement if any in VFD? The former is highly conceivable. He might have thought it sounded like a promising snake to employ in a scheme, only to learn otherwise from Dr. Montgomery or his notes.
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Post by Uncle Algernon on Mar 9, 2019 19:54:44 GMT -5
Does Stephano know about the IDV because he actually did research on it when he became Monty's assistant or is he familiar with it because of its involvement if any in VFD? The former is highly conceivable. He might have thought it sounded like a promising snake to employ in a scheme, only to learn otherwise from Dr. Montgomery or his notes. But isn't it tempting to assume Olaf had had previous dealings with Inky, though? Considering what we learn in The End it's not out of the question.
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Post by Dante on Mar 10, 2019 3:13:49 GMT -5
Not really. The End implies that perhaps the Incredibly Deadly Viper (or something like it) was on the island in the Baudelaire parents' time, but we don't know that Olaf ever was and I don't recall him ever interacting with or mentioning the snake in the entire volume.
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Post by Uncle Algernon on Mar 10, 2019 4:53:15 GMT -5
Not really. The End implies that perhaps the Incredibly Deadly Viper (or something like it) was on the island in the Baudelaire parents' time, but we don't know that Olaf ever was and I don't recall him ever interacting with or mentioning the snake in the entire volume. I mean, I had sort of assumed that Inky used to be a VFD trained animal of the highest importance prior to ending up on the Island the first time. Surely there has to be a reason why Monty is covering up for its origins and claiming to have recently discovered it, no?
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Post by veryferociousdrama on Mar 10, 2019 5:04:05 GMT -5
Notes on Chapters Eleven to Thirteen.
Where has Olaf acquired all his stuff from? My guess is that he sent a troupe member to his house to get it, he stole it on his travels, or Madame Lulu supplied it to him.
So it's afternoon by now, but early morning a few hours ago. This investigation is a long one.
OK, so this retracts my theory on the Prospero being taken by Olaf's troupe, if he needs Uncle Monty's Herpetological Society card to get to Peru. But this trip to Peru, like I've said earlier, seems to be far more than just to study snakes. Or maybe the reptiles that used to belong to the Villains, some may be with other members? I do believe the Society and VFD have more ties than we first believe.
Another point on Hooky, he seems very stupid here. So Olaf's been found out, but he hasn't. If he took the Baudelaires, he could have got them to the Prospero, while Olaf killed Poe.
I find it very interesting that they stayed the night at Uncle Monty's at the end. What did they eat in the morning, Monty's leftover peaches? Did Poe phone Polly to tell her he'd be gone overnight? I presume he was waiting to let Bruce in, and didn't want to wake the Baudelaires for the trip back to the City.
Bruce and his crew probably took a long time to get there if they were travelling from the City, (or overseas, if they came from London, if the series isn't set in the UK). Probably didn't help if there were roadblockers. On their way back was probably where Olaf got the snakes.
Aah, Bruce. Bruce reminds me a bit of Poe, well-meaning but idiotic. Is he a member of VFD? No, or possibly not yet, but I'll come back to that later. He doesn't seem to have met Monty, which is strange.
In the picture at the end, there seems to be something to do with the Lachrymose leeches. Do they come under the Society? Maybe; a quick bit of research has told me leeches are a type of worm, and some worms are reptiles, so maybe.
The tallest waiter, eh? Maybe Larry-Your-Waiter, eh? It's also very stupid of Lemony to send Mr. Helquiest a leech, when he could have sent a photograph. Also makes me wonder where he got it from.
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Post by Carrie E. Abelabudite on Mar 10, 2019 7:25:18 GMT -5
I'd forgotten about this. I briefly considered a tentative fix involving Daedalus Dock being located within Hazy Harbor, but they're on opposite sides of the U.A. map; though of course, that might be an issue with the map. Not the same instance of the Prospero sailing, then? I've seen this discrepancy used as part of a theory suggesting that Monty lied to Olaf about the Prospero's point of departure. Probably not what Handler was intending, but it's a good way to fix the inconsistency. Oh right, that would make sense. I actually made a note about Poe contacting them later on. I probably should have put two and two together and figured out that that was who he was talking to earlier. "into the tiny backseat", does this imply that that the back of the car has only one seat then, and there are in fact three seats in the car but that the back has only one of them? Because for that one seat to be somehow smaller than both the apparently adult sized front seats then the Jeep would have to be almost cone shaped and I refuse to believe that cars would be built in such a preposterous way even in the Snicketverse. The car-pooling argument proves that the Jeep has four seats, and it's hard to imagine how one could even design a car with three seats. I think Handler just lost track of how many people there should have been during the Zombies in the Snow scene. Good point. See also the Snicket Sleuth's theory that Poe is actually a V.F.D. agent of some description, one who's neutral in the Schism and has been useful to the Fire-Starting Side as well as the Fire-Stopping Side, and for this reason the Sinister Duo have made it clear to Olaf that he is not to be harmed unless it is absolutely unavoidable. I wouldn't think of him as an agent, necessarily, but I definitely see him as knowing of VFD's existence. I'd view him less as neutral in the schism and more unaware that a schism even occurred. Chapter 10
I often find myself contradicting the traditional morals of fairy tales just like the boy who cried wolf and im glad Lemony agrees with me on that count Yeah, that's one of the reasons I like these books so much. So it's afternoon by now, but early morning a few hours ago. This investigation is a long one. There are a lot of instances of time being stretched out weirdly throughout the series. I guess he just thinks that the jig is up and there's no point trying to kidnap the Baudelaires at this stage; instead, he just focuses on helping his boss escape. Presumably there are multiple branches of the Herpetological Society, including one based in or near the city. I also thought the way Lemony tells the editor to get the manuscript seems reminiscent of the 'I didn't realise this was a sad occasion' code. Chapter Twelve
'You couldn't tell how the Incredibly Deadly Viper looked, because the facial expressions of snakes are difficult to read.' (p166) This book definitely feels a lot funnier, a lot more Snicket-y, than TBB. There are still moments in TBB that really make me laugh, and I pointed all of those out in that thread, but I had to give up just quoting all the things I found funny here so my notes wouldn't get incredibly long with me just making the same point over and over. '"Roofik!" Sunny agreed.' (p168) Before this reread, I'd forgotten how much Sunny-speak isn't actually translated in the early books. Chapter Thirteen
I like how there's also a fake happy ending here, like at the end of TBB. '"you shouldn't tell lies, orphans," Count Olaf said.' (p179) Lies, and whether or not it's justified to tell them, actually seem to be quite a theme throughout the book. 'Dr Lucafont grabbed Count Olaf's shoulder with one of his oddly stiff hands' (p179) - How could he have done this? Despite the Baudelaires pleas, I'm not sure if chasing after Olaf really would have worked. Poe doesn't seem that unreasonable here to me for just wanting to call the police instead. '"Your friend Mr Poe called me to come and retrieve the snakes"' (p184) - If Poe were the one who called Bruce, how did Olaf end up with the snake collection? More on this when we get to TUA, but presumably he wasn't successful right away. Eventually I assume he must have posed as another member of the Herpetological Society and got Bruce to give him the reptiles that way. 'even throughout the series of unfortunate events' (p189 - First series title drop. Timeline notes: Like TBB, I'd say the Bauds are at Monty's house for eleven days (when they first arrive, he says they're leaving for Peru in ten days, and including the day they arrive and the day they should have left, that makes eleven). If we say they stayed at the Poe's for the same amount of time as they did at the beginning of TBB, that means the amount of time from the end of TBB to the end of TRR would again be four weeks. With my timeline for TBB, that makes the whole series eight weeks so far. To My Kind EditorI don't think Café Kafka is ever mentioned again, even in TUA. Is there an illustration of a Lachrymose Leech in TWW? I now don't remember, but I don't think there is.
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Post by Joe Villazoa on Mar 10, 2019 12:41:08 GMT -5
Now that I have had more time to analyze the remainder of the book I have here my last points for The Reptile Room. Also I will try to interact more with other people's points on the book but have been unable to do so largely due to my own ineptitude at working with the quoting system. Here is my analysis of chapter 11-13.
Chapter 11
Lemony is on the deck of a friend's yacht, clearly his life on the lam was much better lived in the early books then in the later ones when he is constantly running away from the authorities and escaping mortal danger rather than getting a tan while writing in peace.
Lemony makes constant reference to the Baudelaires being more courageous than he would be in their case, while the Baudelaires are undoubtedly courageous in the face of such misfortune, Lemony comes off as a bit of a wimp in these early books.
The "ever, ever, ever" page is I believe the first time example of Lemony overemphasizing a point by having a whole page dedicated to repeating said point, he does this again in book the sixth with the dark page.
I feel like the inventions made in the earlier books by Violet were much more realistic, described and actually believable, this of course does change later on. Also could this be seen as one of the events of the Baudelaires fighting fire with fire, or using and doing bad things for good purposes like they do with the burning down of a hotel and carnival and almost taking someone hostage?Lemony does make mention of lock picking being a bad act as does Poe later on but the Baudelaires show no remorse for actually breaking into someone's private suitcase due to the fact that it's Olaf.
How many suitcases do the Baudelaires have, and do they really have so many as to constitute a pile? There is Stephano's one suitcase, the Baudelaires apparently have multiple old suitcases filled with clothes from Mrs. Poe though previously they were mentioned to not have much in regards to clothes, and in fact Violet used if I recall correctly a lot of the clothes to make the grappling hook. Does this perhaps imply that Mrs. Poe has given the Baudelaires more clothes?
It's a little surprising to me that Stephano sees Violet lock picking his suitcase and does nothing he could easily tell Poe about although I guess he is preoccupied at the moment with the IDV. Still "look Violet is breaking into my suitcase!" looks like the perfect thing to distract Poe after Sunny's "aha" moment.
I am not an expert in lock picking so would rubbing a lock pick in soap actually make it work better, it sounds like it would be much harder to control?
Chapter 12
Why did Olaf leave all the evidence of his murder gathered in the same place, I mean granted he never expected to be in this situation but he could have put the venom vial back, thrown away the papers and then there would be hardly any conclusive evidence to link him back to the murder.
The HHM is really grasping at straws by suggesting that maybe just this once the snake decided not to kill its victim the way it does, I still stick with my assumption that most of Olaf's acting troupe is rather inept at acting.
Does anyone have any ideas on what Stephano actually planned to do when they were in Peru? Because im still at a loss as to how he thought it would get him the fortune.
How much time passes between The Reptile Room and The Wide Window? Because for Olaf to have shaved his eyebrows off and for them to come back by The Wide Window surely some time must have passed, come to think of it how fast do eyebrows grow back?
Fernald really is delightful as Dr. Lucafont at times, his silly suggestions make up a good portion of the comedy in this book and by now it should be pretty obvious that he is in cahoots with Olaf simply by his suggestion of forgetting the whole thing.
I'm a big fan of Lemony's dedication to Olaf's disguises, he calls them him by his fake name as long as the name is still in use to fool the public (usually Poe) and only begins adressing him again as Olaf once his disguise has been revealed, its a nice little touch that I thought i'd mention.
Chapter 13
I have to agree with Poe on that the Baudelaires story did seem a little far fetched for someone who didn't actually know what the Baudelaires knew, this excuse of course only holds up here because it is Olaf's first disguise and when Poe inevitably uses it again the story is no longer far fetched.
I know Olaf has been found out but is confessing to another murder really the right way to go?
I get that Olaf might not want to kill Poe so as to keep him as the manager of the Baudelaire fortune but surely Dr. Lucafont could knock him out just now and they could grab the kids and go, I think the Netflix adaptation did a better job of showing why Olaf just up and left by having the reptiles threaten him.
Was the HHM wearing some sort of surgical mask or did the Baudelaires simply not recognize his face and only know him by the obvious hooks he has for hands?
I still don't believe that Bruce is a member of either side of VFD but then again in the Snicketverse one cant be too sure. He just comes off as another ignorant adult to me as shown by his not knowing what misnomer.
It's really touching how the children end the book reasserting how they will always remember their uncle Monty as a brilliant man, while they don't hold him in as high a pedestal as their parents they clearly did admire Monty and that's something that cant be said for really any other of the Baudelaire guardians.
"I see your awake(...) Please go upstairs and go to sleep" um what? Does Poe hear what hes saying I know they have to leave early tomorrow but the children have supposedly been sleeping for quite a while.
Can snakes cry?
A nice closing illustration by Helquist where the clue to the next book is in what appears to be a shirt for a baseball team called the Lachrymose Leeches, fun to see the Snicketverse still has sports around.
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Post by Dante on Mar 10, 2019 16:26:39 GMT -5
There are a lot of instances of time being stretched out weirdly throughout the series. I feel like Handler often has a certain period of time he wants the story to fill, but doesn't necessarily know how to fill it. There's one example in particular I'm looking forward to, much further on in the series. I'm not sure if that's really the intended interpretation of the U.A. material; that seemed to indicate that the reptiles had been scattered far and wide through the wild, rather than being comfortably handed over in one big batch while still in their cages. I would suggest that something did not go as planned, for either the Herpetological Society or the villains. No "A", doesn't count. Chapter Eleven. I feel like the inventions made in the earlier books by Violet were much more realistic, described and actually believable, this of course does change later on. I would have to agree with this; the early inventions are also better at combining items, while it feels like the later inventions are just reapplications of single items in unexpected contexts. I think both the movie and the Netflix series have alluded to "relaxed guardianship laws," and the book itself has Olaf point to Peru as a country where "crimes are more difficult to trace" (p. 77); my interpretation is that Olaf was essentially planning a rerun of something like the Marvelous Marriage business, and this holds up in the next few books where Olaf's ultimate aim is to once again become the Baudelaires' legal guardian. This is a feature I really like, too; I think it helps to sell the disguises to the audience. They may be transparent to the Baudelaires, but in a book without a great deal of descriptive text, always using Olaf's disguised name reminds us to picture him in the disguise, and it quite subtly creates a great deal of visual diversity. He's just proud of his accomplishments.
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Post by Foxy on Mar 11, 2019 9:59:07 GMT -5
I think another reason Olaf confesses is because he knows he is going to get away with it. If Mr. Poe and the justice system always fail to capture Count Olaf, then there are not consequences to confessing his crimes.
How do the police never capture Count Olaf? Is this plausible as a story line?
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Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Mar 12, 2019 15:04:40 GMT -5
He's just proud of his accomplishments. Exactly! This evidence shows the kind of person Olaf is. And this is evidence that it was not Olaf who started the fire at Beatrice's house. In TE, he does not admit that he started the fire, even though he was near death and he was on a desert island. Couple this with the fact shown in TBB the Rare Edition, that Beatrice and Bertrand strongly encouraged their children to leave home that day, and we have a complete scenario.
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Post by Foxy on Mar 13, 2019 6:44:30 GMT -5
I agree. I don't think Olaf started the fire for that exact reason - he would have confessed on the island.
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Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Mar 13, 2019 13:06:50 GMT -5
In my theory, Beatrice and Bertrand planned together to fake their own death. So they sent their children to the beach on the day of the fire. But something very bad happened ...
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Post by Agathological on May 29, 2019 17:55:23 GMT -5
My personal head canon is that Moxie Mallahan is Madame Di Lustro. I don't know why but reading ATWQ just made me connect the two together.
Perhaps when Snicket says later on that he realises Madame Di Lustro's secret identity that he realised that it was Moxie?
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Post by Foxy on May 30, 2019 8:26:25 GMT -5
I would love that! Moxie is my favorite character in ATWQ.
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