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Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Jun 25, 2020 16:51:11 GMT -5
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sevensorrows
Bewildered Beginner
I'm finding mercy / cuts like a sharpened knife
Posts: 9
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Post by sevensorrows on Jun 26, 2020 13:09:48 GMT -5
I guess one of my concerns with this book is the apparent resizing of Stain'd-by-the-Sea. In the main series, the small town seems to be drying up and dying out rapidly. In FU13, though, we see 10 businesses introduced (by my count, at least), as well as a few businesses about to close (like the French horn factory). And that's all in addition to the businesses that we already know from the main series-- Partial Foods, Dicey's, the Lost Arms, etc. Stain'd seems to have a notable amount of businesses and residents still there. The main series gave me the impression that the town was small geographically and struggling economically, but more businesses and residents = more land area and more activity.
Obviously it would have been difficult to write 13 new stories without introducing some new characters and settings. But it puzzles me that so many of the stories are tied in with local businesses in a town that is supposedly "emptying out" (in Snicket's own words). Someone also mentioned in another thread that the smokestacks in the Figure in Fog illustration make the town look more prosperous than it's described to be, which I agree with. What are your thoughts? Maybe I'm just underestimating how many businesses constitutes an almost-ghost-town, or maybe I'm misinterpreting Snicket's portrayal of Stain'd.
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Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Jun 26, 2020 15:12:08 GMT -5
Very well observed. When I read File Under 13 I had something in mind that made me not be so strange about this peculiarity. I believe that the 4 ATWQ books were written many years after the events recorded in it. (I have already pointed out evidence of this). In other words, adult Lemony was remembering and writing about when he was 12 or 13. After that, someone illustrated and published these 4 reports, giving them the format of books. On the other hand, File Under Suspicious Incidents consists of reports written by Lemony at the time of the events. Someone found the file called "Suspicious Incidents" and published it in book form, including even pages from reports that had not been written by Lemony. Thus, the text of File Under 13 contains a closer view of reality, as it was written chronologically much closer to events.
If we try to remember events from our childhood, it is likely that we will overlook several details that were not striking. I can clearly remember a pharmacy, a street market, a police office, a greengrocer and a supermarket in the neighborhood where I was raised until I was 9 years old. But I'm sure there were many more businesses and that the neighborhood was much busier than I can remember clearly. So, I believe that when Daniel Handler wrote File Under 13 he took this into account when making the story written at the time of the events narrated in contrast to the 4 books of ATWQ, which was written many years after the recorded events.
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sevensorrows
Bewildered Beginner
I'm finding mercy / cuts like a sharpened knife
Posts: 9
Likes: 6
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Post by sevensorrows on Jun 26, 2020 21:24:45 GMT -5
Good point. I think that's a great reading, and I agree. I really like the idea that there are reports not written by Lemony in this-- I assume those would be the false/alternate conclusions at the end? Do you think there's enough material in those to speculate who might have written them and under what circumstances? Trying to link all of the alternate conclusions into one cohesive narrative would require some serious mental gymnastics, but if we assume there's multiple different sources, and divide them into smaller, unrelated groups... it might be easier to explore them.
Just to look at a few of them: I think we could claim that Deep Mine and Small Courtyard are from the same source, since they both involve a character named Dagwood. Quiet Street seems to fit with them at first because it mentions a Violetta, but it states outright that this Violetta Frogg-Drifter is a fake name and thus could not be the Violetta mentioned in Small Courtyard. Backseat and Missing Pets both talk about transporting reptiles/amphibians/eggs, but I don't know if that connection is strong enough to support them having the same source. Last Word, I think, stands on its own. (Also, if it follows the pattern of the rest of the conclusions, we can assume that this report is not related to the main 13 incidents of the book, either. which would completely change how we should be approaching its answer.)
Also, sorry in advance if I'm just repeating ideas that have already been discussed here :)
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Post by Dante on Jun 27, 2020 4:00:16 GMT -5
My view on this question is a little different. I feel that even in the main four books, Lemony somewhat undersells the size of Stain'd-by-the-Sea at times; he describes the town as tiny, but the amount of time he spends wandering the innumerable city blocks gives the impression of it actually being a pretty generously-sized community, as does the number of services supplying it - multiple schools, a pretty significant train station. I felt that File Under wasn't so much contradicting the main series as that the main series contradicted itself; a larger community that's emptying out may still have a lot of people and businesses going at any one time.
I also feel like there's a discussion to be had about the title of the book. It was originally simply File Under: Suspicious Incidents, but it was subsequently changed to File Under: 13 Suspicious Incidents, which I think changes the interpretation slightly. If I'm honest, I don't quite regard the final title as canon because I don't think it makes as much sense. This may shed light on the question of where the alternative conclusions come from, though I'm not convinced that the answer is meaningful.
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Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Jun 27, 2020 7:28:56 GMT -5
Good point. I think that's a great reading, and I agree. I really like the idea that there are reports not written by Lemony in this-- I assume those would be the false/alternate conclusions at the end? Do you think there's enough material in those to speculate who might have written them and under what circumstances? Trying to link all of the alternate conclusions into one cohesive narrative would require some serious mental gymnastics, but if we assume there's multiple different sources, and divide them into smaller, unrelated groups... it might be easier to explore them. Just to look at a few of them: I think we could claim that Deep Mine and Small Courtyard are from the same source, since they both involve a character named Dagwood. Quiet Street seems to fit with them at first because it mentions a Violetta, but it states outright that this Violetta Frogg-Drifter is a fake name and thus could not be the Violetta mentioned in Small Courtyard. Backseat and Missing Pets both talk about transporting reptiles/amphibians/eggs, but I don't know if that connection is strong enough to support them having the same source. Last Word, I think, stands on its own. (Also, if it follows the pattern of the rest of the conclusions, we can assume that this report is not related to the main 13 incidents of the book, either. which would completely change how we should be approaching its answer.) Also, sorry in advance if I'm just repeating ideas that have already been discussed here I came to some interesting conclusions about those extra cases. I believe that Dani Handler's goal was to promote fanfics. (It even promoted a Fanfic of mine, called Untie My Silence Knot that I published here). I believe that Bertrand was involved with matters related to that small town before Lemony's arrival. And another detective that I dare not write the name because it is difficult to spell, was also involved. So, I think the city was one of the training places of those who had been chosen for a career as a detective in VFD. I find it very interesting that the bases for ATWQ were launched in TBL (Yes, I know, I'm here again talking about TBL). In TBL Lemony he is called a detective and the idea that tutors take care of children in VFD after theoretical training up to a certain age is also shown, giving them training and useful devices.
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Post by FileneNGottlin on Jun 27, 2020 8:24:50 GMT -5
If Stain'd by the Sea was once a large city, rather than a town, having only ~15 businesses would be unusual. I've always wondered why many of the shops mentioned, especially in Bad Gang, are so niche.(Boards, Swords, Cords, Gourds, Fjords, Chrysanthemums, and even Cozy's on some level). Perhaps the point is that nearly everything useful is gone, but pointless stores are left.
Is the man who comes to Hungry's once a month for steak frites Hangfire?
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sevensorrows
Bewildered Beginner
I'm finding mercy / cuts like a sharpened knife
Posts: 9
Likes: 6
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Post by sevensorrows on Jun 27, 2020 21:54:41 GMT -5
Is the man who comes to Hungry's once a month for steak frites Hangfire? I don’t think so. We know that 1) that man’s name is Leroy 2) he lives in a condominium a couple blocks from Hungry’s 3) Jake sees him once a month and 4) (most importantly) Hangfire is Armstrong Feint. Leroy may be an odd character, but he’s not Hangfire.
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Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Jun 27, 2020 22:17:54 GMT -5
My observations on the "Deep Mine" case
Deep Mine -
Character: Dagwood. (Son of a geologist and probably Violetta's brother) 1 - Dagwood failed to notice anything. This indicates that this is a report in which one detective failed to discover the solution to the mystery, while another detective discovered the solution to the mystery. (I believe this other detective is Bertrand, or Violetta)
2 - The case involved discovering the origin of some mysterious sound inside a mine.
3 - There is a Red Haring here. The false conclusion is that this mine must be the same as Marguerite's father. But that is not true. In the end we realized that the museum authorities were investigating that mine. These authorities found shovels and notebooks inside the mine the next morning. I suspect that this mine is somehow connected to the museum that Lemony and his companions were trying to steal.
4 - The mysterious sound was of natural origin. (Another Red Haring here to make us believe that this sound has something to do with SBTS lizards.)
5 - The solution to the case happened because the detective decided to keep digging, until he found the natural origin of that strange noise.
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Post by Dante on Jun 29, 2020 5:00:47 GMT -5
Now that I have a little more time, I'd like to expand a little on my remarks about the book's title (a subject which I suppose I will never tire of complaining about). The (unnumbered) opening page of the books explains that the book comprises "reports filed under "Suspicious Incidents" in our archives", and I think it is easy to imagine a system such as in the Library of Recrds where a number of alphabetical or categorised filing cabinets are available, and these reports have been filed under the appropriate alphabetical or stock heading of "Suspicious Incidents", which V.F.D. must receive many reports of. The additional conclusions are, by implication, the conclusions to other reported Suspicious Incidents which have been "misfiled", perhaps owing to the general practice of separating reports from their conclusions. This is all plainly suggested in the original title, File Under: Suspicious Incidents; but once the title is revised to File Under: 13 Suspicious Incidents, this sense is lost and replaced with the idiotic proposal that V.F.D. instead has a filing cabinet for "13 Suspicious Incidents" specifically, no more, no less. The title change is purely to make absolutely sure that readers understand that they are getting multiple stories here rather than just one, as if interested parties are incapable of reading the back cover or doing the most basic research, or as if they would reject out of hand a short story collection. It's a change characteristic of a publisher which made missteps over and over in its marketing of this series. I think the additional solutions in File Under serve three purposes: - Red herrings: There to discourage the kind of reader who likes to flip to the back of a book to read the ending before they read the story, or alternatively to spoiler-proof the book against readers setting eyes on the wrong page when turning to the appropriate solution.
- Humour: The fragmented tales frankly convey a certain humour as non-sequiturs, and are often constructed such that the opening lines of each false conclusion make it difficult to predict the closing lines; others contain simple absurdities, such as the ludicrous picture painted by "enough rope to tow anything--or anyone--that heavy" (p. 243).
- Foreshadowing for the main series: This, I think, is the major point. The extra solutions contain repeated references to lizards, reptiles and amphibians, and draw a link between the underground passageways they use and a buzzing sound emanating from such passageways (pp. 211, 223); one mentions "violent animal life" implicitly large and powerful enough to pose a structural danger to "the construction of clinics and schools" (p. 227). It's not difficult to see echoes of these statements in the ultimate emergence of the Bombinating Beast. Further, "Message Recorded" (pp. 251-252) asks us to link residents of Stain'd-by-the-Sea with the initials T. and Q. to membership of a secret organisation, and while it's not their first initial in either case, it's very easy to see this as a hint that Qwerty is a member of V.F.D. and to imagine a covert meeting between him and Theodora (as disastrously takes place in ?4). (For the long-time fans, this one also contains an allusion to hiding things inside one's hat.) Page 255 at once celebrates and parodies such hunting for clues...
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Post by Hermes on Jun 29, 2020 6:12:10 GMT -5
Of course, in something like the Library of Records, where paragraphs about the weather at Damocles Dock are filed under Paragraphs, we can't rule out there being a file called '13 Suspicious Incidents'. I'm sure it is a blunder by the publisher, but the absurd nature of the Snicket world allows publishers to blunder without destroying all credibility.
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Post by Uncle Algernon on Jun 29, 2020 11:07:13 GMT -5
(…) Once the title is revised to File Under: 13 Suspicious Incidents, this sense is lost and replaced with the idiotic proposal that V.F.D. instead has a filing cabinet for "13 Suspicious Incidents" specifically, no more, no less. Actually, if ‘File Under: 13 Suspicions Incidents’, it would appear the filing cabinet would actually contain an arbitrary number of sets of thirteen suspicious incidents each, I should think. Which I suppose makes sense if whoever is handling the filing is interested in numerology, and thus thinks that sets of exactly 13 connected incidents are an interesting to relate to each other. If we grant this premise, it is tempting to imagine that Lemony's thirteen reborts on the Baudelaire children are also filed in the same cabinet. Alternatively, for something more ungainly but less nonsensical, we might propose that the real title is File Under, while the 13 Suspicious Incidents part is a subtitle explaining more prosaically what the anthology called File Under actually contains. (I agree the retitling is stupid, mind you. The above ideas are merely potential rationalizations.)
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Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Jun 29, 2020 13:46:28 GMT -5
In Portuguese it is called "13 suspicious Incidentes"
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Post by Marlowe on Jul 10, 2020 17:19:13 GMT -5
FU:13 is definitely my favorite of the ATWQ series. Makes me wish Snicket wrote more short fiction... Perhaps an anthology of absurdist stories like the one in the Horseradish introduction.
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Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Jul 10, 2020 17:45:40 GMT -5
I would very much like his next book to be like that, despite what has already been released.
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