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Post by counto on Mar 2, 2021 2:57:57 GMT -5
Alright, from what we now know is that ASOUE likely takes place in 1995-96, while ATWQ takes place in 1965 (30 years before the main series).
Lemony being born in 1993, he would be 43 years old in TPP.
Jacques and Kit both twins are born two years earlier than Lemony in 1951. Making them 44-45 years old in ASOUE and 14 in ATWQ.
The Denouement Triplets are a year older than J and K, meaning they'd be born in 1950. Five years later the VFD Schism starts (1955) same year Monty starts studying herpetology for the next forty years leading up to TRR. The three would be 46 in TPP.
Count Olaf and Monty, I'm assuming the two were born 6-7 years before the Schism started. Likely born in 1948 or 1949.
Olaf and Monty being 47-48 years old in ASOUE and 16-17 in ATWQ.
For Beatrice and Duchess R, are both the same age and two years younger than Lemony (meaning BB and R were born sometime as the Schism first started, hence why they don't have tattoos). So Beatrice and R would be 40 by the time of ASOUE.
Bertrand Baudelaire was an orphan who was later adopted by orphan children, until he was recruited into VFD as a child. Bertrand is mentioned in ATWQ having already undergone his apprenticeship for VFD a year prior in which Lemony is 12 and almost 13. Likely making him a year older than Lemony. Meaning Bertrand would be 43 in ASOUE before his death. The reason I think he doesn't have a tattoo is because he was recruited around the time of the Schism.
Josephine Anwhistle I'm not too sure, at first I thought she'd be an old lady in her early 60's or 70's judging by the character's illustration. But it's also mentioned that Josephine was apart of Lemony's semi-coup and a young volunteer. My best guess is that she's actually in her late 40's like Olaf and Monty, but appears as an old woman due to her irrational fears and mental issues after Ike's death.
Jerome and Esme seem to be in their mid to late 30's (possibly being born after the Schism).
Fiona Widdershins is one year older than Violet in TGG which takes place in early 1996 (around the time Violet turns 15). Making her 16 and her birthday in 1980.
Fernald Widdershins (Fiona's brother) was born almost 18 years before her. Putting him the early 30's age bracket.
Violet Baudelaire is 14 at the start of ASOUE (1995) and turns 15 in TGG (1996). If this is the start of the new years Violet's birthday would be in January of 1981.
Klaus Baudelaire is 12 in 1995 until TVV when he turns 13. Now while I like Jean's theory on Hanukkah, I rather think that Klaus was born in November of 1983.
Sunny being a baby probably born a year before ASOUE would be born in 1994.
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Post by Hermes on Mar 2, 2021 10:24:26 GMT -5
V and K's birthdays cannnot be more than two weeks apart, going by the timeline of the later books of ASOUE.
There is a story in The End of something that happened during a hit autumn when Sunny was two weeks old, so she must have been born in late summer.
I think the question is whether False Spring happens in early winter (like St Martin's Summer) or in late winter (like Groundhog Day). (While winter in astronomical terms begins on December 21st, the term can easily be applied earlier, whenever it gets conistently cold.) If the former, Hannukah presumably comes after the end of the story - if the latter it may have happened while they were wth Mr Poe, prior to TVV.
Winter does not seem to have much effect except in the mountains. I believe this does in fact fit the area round San Francisco.
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Post by Christmas Chief on Mar 2, 2021 11:16:53 GMT -5
Lemony being born in 1993, he would be 43 years old in TPP. Do you mean 1953? It's interesting to consider which V.F.D. members were born before or after the schism and how that impacted their view of the organization. If Esme was born before the schism (and thus grew up in an organization divided), how do you think that would have influenced her villainy?
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Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Mar 2, 2021 12:50:22 GMT -5
I think this is an important issue. Will we consider in this chronology the existence of several moments that can be called schism? I believe that to consider LSTUA with ASOUE and to reconcile TPP with some of the TBBRE notes, this is fundamental. In this case, Beatrice trained VFD lions. Still, when the schism happened, according to TSS, the lions stayed with the arsonists. Lemony remembers seeing the VFD trained eagles, yet one of those eagles caught Beatrice. And according to TBL, Lemony would only go to the mountains after theoretical training. Olaf studied with Beatrice and Lemony at the VFD training center. So, I believe it is important to determine when it was what I call "Olaf's schism", which I think was around the time of Lemony's quasi wedding. And I think it was in this "Olaf schism" that the animals were kidnapped. I would put Olaf's schism around 1974.
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Post by counto on Mar 2, 2021 17:30:36 GMT -5
Well maybe some of the animals were re-trained after the Schism by the arsonist side. I think that the VFD Schism (1955) was just the beginning of VFD's downfall in the late 70's (1977). So if Olaf's parents were murdered in 1974 it would fit perfectly with the time setting. Cause according to Jerome in TEE 20 years prior was when Beatrice was carried by an eagles from the arsonist side in 1975, a year after the events of the opera.
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Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Mar 2, 2021 17:42:38 GMT -5
Let's take it easy ... We are entering a minefield now. You need to base your opinions so that at least there is some theoretical foundation. At least when it's possible. Is there any evidence of animal retraining?
I can say, however, that there is evidence of the use of the word schism to describe different events. In The End we have a clear example of this. In addition, both Olaf (in The End) and Snicket in ATWQ referred to plural schisms when talking about the history of VFD.
If you think about it, the fact that Olaf has a tattoo indicates that he was part of VFD before the Great Schism. According to LSTUA (in the letter from R to Lemony) there is a clear indication that the Great Schism began shortly after Lemony received the tattoo along with R. (R also has a tattoo). If Lemony and Olaf remained together on the side of the fire fighters, it indicates that Olaf disbanded to the arson side later. Olaf's going to the incendiary side is called a schism by Jacques Snicket in the letter he sent to Jerome in LSTUA.
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Post by counto on Mar 2, 2021 20:20:16 GMT -5
Right, sorry I'm just really excited about this subject. Yes it is true that the word Schism is used to describe different events in the series. It's possible that before the Great VFD Schism, there were multiple semi-schisms in the past history.
But the Great VFD Schism seems to be the one that caused the most damage to the secret society, where volunteers started to start fires instead of put them out.
The first Generation of ASOUE (the Pre-Schism Gen) characters Lemony, R, Count Olaf and other in their 40's as adults.
The ones way before the Great VFD Schism like Ishmael and The Sinister Duo would be 60+ during the main events off ASOUE.
The Second Gen (Post-Schism Gen) being Fiona, Violet, Klaus, Sunny and other children.
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Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Mar 12, 2021 2:39:33 GMT -5
So, we should place the Great Schism of VFD some 3 years after Lemony's birth. (In LSTUA he places a photo of a child of about that age to indicate when he was captured). Olaf's first schism came at the time that Lemony was about to marry Beatrice. I think it was at that moment that the animals were captured. (Eagles and lions) If Lemony was to be married around the age of 22 (an approximation, I would say, based on the October 1977 photo. I believe that photo was taken when Lemony had already spent some years abroad, after fleeing for the first time on the Prospero ship ) so Olaf’s first schism happened around 1975. I think that makes a lot of sense with Jerome's words. Jerome said that 20 years earlier he had gone up the mountains with Beatrice. And Lemony claims that she saw Beatrice being captured by an eagle. If these events happened at the same time, we can conclude that it was 20 years before 1996, that is, in 1976. Olaf's schism had just begun and the animals were already being captured. I also think it matches the creation of AA. We know that Gregore A was a staunch opponent of Olaf. This opposition could only have started after Olaf became a villain. According to Captain W. he spent 4 years working on training salmon, even when they were captured. (TGG chapter 5). He says that FIona was too young to remember, which makes us conclude that Fiona was born during those 4 years. In 1996, Fiona is about 16 years old. The capture of the Salmon may have taken place around 1979 or 1980. By this time, Lemony had already returned from abroad and participated in the fight for the salmon cause. It was around this time that Captain W. showed the news to Beatrice about one of Lemony's alleged deaths, and it was around that time that she believed he was dead and then married someone else. It was after Beatrice's wedding in 1980 or 1981 that she went to the island, and then it was at that time that AA went up in flames and Gregore died. And that's why Olaf remembers Fiona even when she was a baby. I think it was only after Beatrice and Bertrand's wedding that Lemony went to work at Queequeg, since the captain believed that Lemony was dead, and he wouldn't believe that if Lemony worked with him. So, I would say that Lemony worked with Captain W around 1982.
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Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Mar 12, 2021 3:30:17 GMT -5
Now ... about when Olaf's parents were murdered ... We have a hypothetical decision to make. We know that Bertrand and Beatrice were already married, because it was after the wedding that they took a taxi together for the opera night. If they were in fact responsible for the death of Olaf's father, mother or father and mother, Olaf became an orphan only after 1980. If we consider, however, that Lemony met Beatrice on the night of the opera, and that murder of Count Olaf's parents was the crime that Lemony helped Beatrice commit just before her death (as indicated in the 13 shocking secrets booklet), so the opera night took place after Sunny's birth (around 1993 or 1994, maybe). This would explain how Sunny remembers Beatrice's poster so well. (Of course, Sunny could have seen the poster much later, pasted on the wall).
I don't think there is a definitive answer, but I think the most coherent answer to the TGG theme is that Beatrice and Bertrand did indeed kill Count Olaf's parents (or one of them). In TPP, Lemony implies that he met a woman that night. I think it can be concluded that the woman is most likely to be Beatrice. And Lemony helping to kill Count Oalf's parents really is a shocking thing, and that matches the tone of the 13 shocking secrets booklet.
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Post by counto on Mar 13, 2021 4:25:12 GMT -5
Well let's say that the Schism takes place before the Snickets and Denouements were born. Kit remembers when they were "recruited" by the Noble side of VFD when she and her brother were four. The Denouements were almost five years old around that time. So they may have been born the same year as the Snicket twins.
Jacques and Kit S, Denouement Triplets (born January 1951). Lemony S (born February 1952).
The recruitment of young volunteers taking place in 1955 (40 years before ASOUE takes place in 1995). Making Lemony 43-44 at the time.
Here's a makeshift mini timeline of Lemony S's life: Feb 1952 - Lemony is born 1964 - Lemony (age 11) meets Beatrice Baudelaire (age 10) Jan 1965 - ATWQ takes place (Lemony age 12) Feb 1965 - THOTS takes place (Lemony age 13) 1970 - Lemony graduates (age 18) and starts working at the Daily Punctilio 1974 - Lemony (age 22) proposes to Beatrice 1975 - Lemony fakes his death (age 23) 1995/96 - Lemony starts investigation on Baudelaire Orphans (age 43-44) 1999 - Lemony publishes ASOUE (age 47) 2006 - Lemony meets Beatrice II (age 54)
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Post by R. on Mar 13, 2021 4:26:11 GMT -5
Wtf do you mean ‘noble side of VFD’??
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Post by counto on Mar 13, 2021 4:35:51 GMT -5
Wtf do you mean ‘noble side of VFD’?? I mean the side that put out fires of VFD, however since they did technically take away kids from their parents and may have possible killed them. It's hard to say if their not completely noble or not.
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Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Mar 13, 2021 5:29:55 GMT -5
I think we need to separate the moments when Lemony first flees abroad, from the moment when his death is first published in the DP. I think there were different moments. The first time Vele ran away, Beatrice knew he was alive so much because Jacques said he would talk to Beatrice about it, as we also know that Beatrice sent the 200-page letter to Lemony explaining why she couldn't marry him.
As I said, after that Lemony returned from abroad, attended the construction committee meeting and even fought for the salmon. At this time Beatrice was still single. Only after that did the DP first publish Lemony's death. I don't know if Lemony faked death. I think it was a mistake by DP. Captain W then showed the story to Beatrice and then she married Bertrand. So, I think Lemony's fake death happened in 1981. At the time of Beatrice's marriage to Bertrand.
Despite this, Lemony must not have spoken to Beatrice since the time of the 200-page letter. For he states in a letter from TBL that he has not talked to Beatrice for years at the time of her pregnancy.
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Post by counto on Mar 13, 2021 17:57:56 GMT -5
That's makes sense, however is believed that Violet was born on the Rooster the closes at the time being 1981. Unless Daniel Handler is basically trolling us and this is not the case Violet would be born in either 1982 or 1983. And if so ASOUE would have to take place in 1997-98.
We also have to bring into the factor that the actually book series in the Snicket-Verse itself may have not be published in 1999 but much later, possible ten or so years after the events took place.
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Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Mar 13, 2021 18:22:33 GMT -5
Well ... Lemony may have had her death published for the first time in the mid-1980s. Beatrice got married and got pregnant right at the start of the marriage. Then she went to the island in 1980. Then she left the island in early 1981 in the winter. And then, in early 1981, Violet was born. 15 years later (1996) she was at GG and a few days after that she was on the island. What about?
With respect to how long asoue has been published, I think we have internal evidence that even TPP at least 10 years have passed. There is the encounter with Beatrice jr (which I believe happened before the publication of TE, and there is also a comment that Lemony makes comparing himself with a poet who publishes some poems for 10 years or so.
So I think there is evidence that the publication time of the 12 books is 10 years, from 1999 to 2009. TBB and TRR being published in 1999 (with evidence of this in LSTUA) and TPP in 2009.
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