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Post by R. on Mar 28, 2021 6:07:07 GMT -5
Of course!
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Post by Hermes on Mar 28, 2021 6:44:22 GMT -5
Mister M may have a solution to the puzzle of when the books were first published. May I?? Well, Roxy has clearly got it. But consider - many indications in the books imply that Lemony was writing the books long after the events - but TUA seems to show at least the first two books as being available during the events. Then consider the theme of your current story.
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Post by Isadora Is a Door on Mar 28, 2021 7:42:14 GMT -5
I was playing devils advocate.
So....my thoughts on timelines.
First of all, I think that a Timeline as such is impossible, because the world of ASOUE does not fit a coherent narrative. I think that each and every timeline that you can attempt to make has to choose to leave some things out of the canon that you disagree with. So I'd never really sat down and thought about making a timeline before. However, due to the complex nature of Black Ink I had to create one. This timeline is focused mostly on the story and its many complexities, however I have put some thought as to when the events of the series and the books were published.
First of all In the timeline I created, the events of the series take place in 1981, with chapter 14 in 1982.
I've always felt like it would take Lemony far longer to research the books than the gaps between each book suggest, but I don't think it fits for him to research the whole series and then begin publishing. As such I think that in universe ASOUE has a much longer span between each book being published.
I think that Lemony begins researching the series in 1982, and does not finish until 2000, meaning the books are published over 18 years. Dont get me started on TUA and TBL.
As for 'Mrs. K' having copies of ASOUE at Prufrock Prep...I believe that Mrs. K is kit, and that this takes place in 1981, but that the books in question are not 'our' ASOUE. I think that Lemony wrote an earlier book, one which perhaps details some elements of VFD and could be used for recruitment. He resus the title in the book series he would later write and *drumroll* the Baudelaire's themselves stole the title for the Book they write on the island.
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Post by Hermes on Mar 28, 2021 9:31:25 GMT -5
Wait, what? We know that a version of TRR was available during the events, since the cow used it in his search for the reptiles. It can't have been a completely different book.
But on the general issue: I think it's clear that the books as we have them were published long after then events, and that Lemony spent a long time researching them. I remain amazed that fandom rushed off after the 'just behind' theory on the basis of just a few indications, when there were clear evidences of 'long after' in the same books.
But I do think the letter from Nero in TUA has to have been written during the unfortunate events. There are two lines of thought leading to this.
a. In the letter, Mrs Bass is still planning her robbery. This puts it before TPP, where the robbery has taken place. And since the closure of the school was partly caused by the robbery, we have to suppose that it happened not long after the end of the series. (I suspect DH actually intended the school to have closed before TPP; but this causes problems with the death of Mr Remora, so it's better to retcon it to just after. It can't be many years later, in any case.)
b. The other two letters in that chapter were clearly written during ASOUE, since they explain events that happen during the series. But the letters must have been written about the same time, since Eleanora would not have gone on publishing articles of that sort after the episode where Geraldine held her prisoner.
An early draft of the series remains the simplest option in my view, forced though it is.
(And on the wider issue, Mister M is right that we will never get complete consistency. We continue to tiptoe around the herbed toast, which is impossible to make sense of on any hypothesis.)
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Post by Isadora Is a Door on Mar 28, 2021 10:09:02 GMT -5
Wait, what? We know that a version of TRR was available during the events, since the cow used it in his search for the reptiles. It can't have been a completely different book. That assuming that you count all of TUA as 'canon' when it's clear that large parts of it are forged and/or faked. It isn't even consistent unto itself. This is up to the reader to interpret for themselves, ergo canon as a concept if impossible to agree on!
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Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Mar 28, 2021 10:11:33 GMT -5
The problem we have at hand is this: what is the best way to adjust the story? When Daniel Handler wrote LSTUA, he did not plan the fire at Hotel D, nor did he plan for Miss Bass to rob the bank anytime soon. And he didn't plan to kill Kit either. But it all happened, and what happened was a scoop. However, this hole in the script is possible to be covered using some strategies. The question is: what is the best strategy? We need to establish principles here, in order to plug the holes in the best possible way. It is important that we all keep in mind that something canonical is not necessarily something that involves the original intent of the author. One thing is the idea that Daniel Handler wanted to convey, and another thing is what he actually wrote. I defend the following principles to fill this roadmap: 1 - Canonical justifications. 2 - Elimination of hypotheses that may have canonical evidence that contradict them. 3 - Preference for hypotheses that may have canonical evidence to the detriment of those that do not. 4 - The best strategy is one that leaves less holes in scripts. (There is no point in trying to plug a script hole by causing another script hole.) Let's take an example, raised by Hermes. The fact that Mrs. Bass was arrested for theft. According to TAA, prufrock prep closed at the time Mrs. Bass was arrested for theft. According to TPP, Mrs. Bass committed her first robbery at the time of the Hotel D fire.
I can say that, although Miss Bass's trips to the Bank mentioned by Nero were originally designed to be planning visits for a future theft, in order to plug the hole in the roadmap, we need to deduce that those trips to the bank were for in fact rob the same bank over and over again.
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Post by Hermes on Mar 28, 2021 11:36:44 GMT -5
Wait, what? We know that a version of TRR was available during the events, since the cow used it in his search for the reptiles. It can't have been a completely different book. That assuming that you count all of TUA as 'canon' when it's clear that large parts of it are forged and/or faked. It isn't even consistent unto itself. This is up to the reader to interpret for themselves, ergo canon as a concept if impossible to agree on! That's true, of course: yet you do accept the account of Kit's teaching at Prufrock Prep - we could get rid of the whole puzzle if we called that a forgery too. Admittedly the cow is one of the least believable aspects of the story - disguises actually used in the main series are more credible (and therefore more transparent). But the cow is mentioned by a couple of other characters. One must also ask why someone would forge something. It's possible, for instance, that Olaf's henchman might forge a stsory like this to give the false impression that he had been on a dangerous mission. But why woukd anylne forge it long after Olaf was dead?
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Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Mar 28, 2021 13:42:21 GMT -5
This is another excellent example of what I have said.
Although orginally (most likely) the henchman was actually an ally of Olaf in Daniel Handler's intentions, after Daniel Handler decided to kill Olaf on the island, another explanation needs to be found if we are to consider LSTUA as part of the same coherent universe within a single time line. In other words, it is necessary to find a way to close this hole in the script of history caused by the change of intent of the author.
Luckily, the henchman never refers to his boss as being Olaf. This leaves room for believing that Genius is someone else, not Olaf. It is true that another character (I think the owner of the ship Prospero) refers to the henchman as being an ally of Olaf. However, I think we canonically justify this by the fact that Olaf died on an island in front of few witnesses, and that almost no one knew about it, as Lemony had not yet published it. (I can say that for everything to make sense, Kit and Olaf's death was only reported to Lemony by Beatrice Jr).
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Post by counto on Mar 28, 2021 19:40:16 GMT -5
I like the idea that ASOUE takes place in 1981-82 (since this is when the famous Von Bulow trial was going on at the time, which influenced Daniel Handler). Given that Violet would be 14-15 in 1981 placing her birth in 1966, Klaus being 12-13 born in 1968 and Sunny 1-2 years old somewhere in 1979. Lemony (the character) would be 39 during the events in 1981 born in 1942. Meaning the VFD Schism would take place in 1945, presumably during the aftermath of WWII.
Ok so here's what we got so far:
1675 - The Village of Fowl Devotees is founded
1934 - Bass and Remora start teaching
1940 - Jacques and Kit Snicket (Jan 12), Denouement Triplets are born 1941 - Monty starts studying herpetology 1942 - Lemony Snicket is born (Feb) 1943 - Beatrice and Duchess R are born
1945 - The VFD Schism
1955 - All The Wrong Questions and The Hero of The Story
1960 - Lemony graduates and starts working at The Daily Punctilio 1961 - Beatrice, R, Jacques and Jerome hike up Mortmain Mountain
1964 - Lemony proposes to Beatrice, same year fired from TDP 1965 - Lemony fakes his death, Beatrice marries Bertrand, Fiona is born 1966 - Violet Baudelaire is born 1967 - The Quagmire Triplets are born 1968 - Klaus Baudelaire is born
1975 - Friday Caliban is born
1979 - Sunny Baudelaire is born
1981 - A Series of Unfortunate Events, Beatrice II is born 1982 - Chapter Fourteen, Lemony starts researching
1992 - Lemony meets Beatrice II, VFD Dissolves
1999 - ASOUE is published
20XX - Poison For Breakfast
I'm not adding on the whole Black Ink parts to the time, just to avoid confusion.
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Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Mar 28, 2021 19:43:51 GMT -5
are you taking into account Beatrice Jr's age when she finally met Lemony after Lemony published some of the books?
She claims to have read Lemony's books before meeting him.
At least some of them.
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Post by counto on Mar 28, 2021 22:30:20 GMT -5
Well it's never been implied as whether it is or isn't ASOUE. It could be other books that Lemony wrote. Maybe even under a different name.
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Post by R. on Mar 28, 2021 23:48:10 GMT -5
She mentioned his accounts of the Baudelaires’ lives though.
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Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Mar 29, 2021 4:19:38 GMT -5
Well it's never been implied as whether it is or isn't ASOUE. It could be other books that Lemony wrote. Maybe even under a different name. Unless there is canonical evidence, I don't think there is any reason to believe that ... The evidence points out that Beatrice Jr represents the fan of asoue well. An asoue reader. And Lemony Snicket in his universe is known as the author of asoue. She mentioned his accounts of the Baudelaires’ lives though. I see that you finally read TBL.
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Post by the panopticountolaf on Mar 29, 2021 6:45:22 GMT -5
I thought I’d jump in here, even though my thoughts are little more than fanfiction...
Personally, I always saw the “penny dreadful” editions of the books as canonical in the Snicketverse alongside the original versions... We also know that Lemony’s manuscripts are wanted by some sort of sinister force, per the Kind Editor note in TBB. It’s entirely possible that Olaf or one of his henchmen is trying to confiscate Lemony’s work, but seeing as they are rather busy trying to murder children, I personally believe that it could be Geraldine Julienne or someone similar from TDP. (Julienne could be following Esme’s orders or just giving in her natural desire for sensational stories.) Picture that they got their hands on this material and decided to publish it, in a penny dreadful format that was cheap. Alterations were made to make the story “sell” better and thus A SERIES OF UNFORTUNATE EVENTS was first published not by Lemony or his Kind Editor but by his enemies. This could possibly explain why Olaf’s henchman (I’m just going with the fact that he’s Olaf’s, as that seems the most likely) doesn’t recognize that THE REPTILE ROOM contains his “boss” in it — with enough details changed around, Olaf was re-named to Omar. Unfortunately for noble people everywhere, this name stuck, causing much confusion. Years and years later, after having gathered more evidence, Lemony finally publishes his books the way they were intended to read; true stories. These are the original versions.
Like I said, it’s basically fanfiction, take it or leave it. Mostly I just wanted to post so that I get notifications when this thread updates.
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Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Mar 29, 2021 8:32:44 GMT -5
Thank you for your participation. I think we can say that the basic cause of our discord is the existence or not of several books published prior to our current version. We will discuss about this. I believe that the only book published twice in the universe of asoue was TBB. And this is the only canonical republication I have in mind. It was original TBB and TBBRE. And there is evidence in the TBBRE notes indicating that it was published years after the main events described in ASOUE, years after the publication of the original TBB, but at the same time there is evidence that book 13 had not yet been published in the ASOUE universe. I add as additional evidence the fact that the same phraseology used in TRR is found in the copy of TRR found by Genius's ally. In addition, I think there is two canonical evidence that the total publication time from TBB to TPP is about 10 years. Evidence is Beatrice Jr's age during the time she met (or almost met) Lemony. And the second evidence is Lemony compares somewhere (I forgot where) that a prose author who publishes 12 or 13 books over 10 years with a poetry author who publishes a few verses over that time. ( Dante, can you help me?)
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