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Post by the panopticountolaf on Mar 29, 2021 8:36:55 GMT -5
Oh, I remember that passage! It’s in TPP somewhere, and I think the phrasing is “several” rather than ten. I don’t know if anyone’s already mentioned this here, but is it possible that the timeline of the publication of the books in the real world also serves as the publication timeline in the Snicketverse? I have no clue how TSS and TPP would fit into that with Kit’s letter, but it’s worth considering.
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Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Mar 29, 2021 8:58:05 GMT -5
The letters to Kit are my biggest nemeses, I couldn't defeat them, but live with them. At the moment, I believe the best explanation is that, like Olaf, Kit died and a desert island in front of few witnesses. Lemony did not know about Kit or Olaf's death, and the only explanation I have found for this is that their names have been omitted from the Baudelaires' reports left on the island. On the other hand, the names were revealed by Beatrice Jr, as well as the information in chapter 14. And that is why I justify that TBL has such a fundamental relationship with TE. Part of the information contained in TE comes from the encounter between Beatrice Jr and Lemony Snicket. That is why I defend the idea that TE was published after that meeting.
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Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Mar 29, 2021 10:03:45 GMT -5
TPP chpater 6: "A taciturn writer, for instance, might produce only one short poem every ten years, which is unlikely to annoy anyone, whereas someone who writes twelve or thirteen books in a relatively short time is likely to find themselves hiding under the coffee table of a notorious villain, holding his breath, hoping nobody at the cocktail party will notice the trembling backgammon set, and wondering, as the ink stain spreads across the carpeting, if certain literary exercises have been entirely worthwhile."
Well ... although it is not definitive, and not necessarily the author's intention, (I think the author's intention was to allude to the fact that he himself took relatively little time to publish all ASOUE books), I believe that this should serve as a parameter to form the time-line.
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Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Mar 29, 2021 10:27:25 GMT -5
About the years of publication of the books in our universe correspond to the years of publication in the universe of Lemony Snicket ... I already thought so. Especially when I saw that in LSTUA TBB and TRR are works dated in the universe and in LSTUA as 1999.
However, in TMM it was published in our universe April 15, 2000. And I think I already showed in my theory of the Great Hiatus, that between the publication of TWW and the publication of TMM several years have passed.
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Post by counto on Apr 2, 2021 0:34:02 GMT -5
So I been thinking a lot about what you've said Jean. I completely agree with you that the ASOUE books (TBB and TRR) were in 1999 as mentioned in LSTUA. We could also assume that they were released in August must like the real life books were. Except Lemony (the character) choose to publish the rest of series 10 years later, possible due to not knowing the rest of the story before meeting Beatrice II.
Anyway my first attempt at solving the timeline was linking it throughout literature in the universe. Which led me to a dead end in ATWQ with said books mentioned: Danny the Champion of the World and Nobody's Family Is Going To Change Tonight. One essential clue that I tried to link this with was the Year of The Snake (1917, 1929, 1941, 1953, 1965, 1977, ect). Which I thought would be Lemony's birth year but that's not the case.
I believe that the Year of The Snake is a clue to what year the Initial VFD Schism took place. If that's true than it's possible the Schism took place in 1965. Now why that year you may ask? Well if we think about Lemony was born 2-3 years before actual Schism. In ATWQ he is described as being almost 13 and THOTS having turned recently 13. Let's say that Lemony was born in late February, 1962. Let's add 13 years later that would be 1975.
In DTCOTW (Danny the Champion of the World) was first published Feb 14, 1975. Lemony would be still 12 if ATWQ takes place early Feb 1975 and 13 in Jan 1975. Back to ASOUE it's been said to have taken place on the Year of The Rat which we've presumed as 1996 and Beatrice II's birthday. However it's stated in LSTUA that TE was published in 2009 not 2006. Here's what I think. I believe that ASOUE starts in late 1998 and ends in early 1999 (somewhere in late Feb).
So if Lemony started to research the Baudelaire Case around that time maybe even earlier last year, than he'd have enough information to publish both first books in August to September 1999. In 2001 LSTUA is published. Like Jean mentioned Beatrice has already read some of Lemony's books. So she must have read TBB, TRR and LSTUA since no other books were canonically published at the time until 2009.
It's a long shot I'll admit but there's still a chance.
Here's an example timeline:
1693 - The Village of Fowl Devotees is founded 1952 - Bass and Remora start teaching 1958 - Monty starts studying herpetology 1960 - The Denouement Triplets are born Jan 1960 - Jacques and Kit are born Feb 1962 - Lemony is born 1963 - Beatrice and R are born 1965 - The VFD Schism 1973 - Lemony meets Beatrice Feb 1975 - ATWQ Jan 1975 - THOTS 1980 - Lemony graduates and starts working 1982 - R becomes duchess, Lemony proposes to Beatrice, fired same year 1983 - Lemony fakes his death, Beatrice and Bertrand marry living on the Island, Fiona is born 1984 - Violet is born 1985 - The Quagmire Triplets are born 1986 - Klaus is born (Carmelita also) Somewhere Between 1991 or before 1998 - Mrs K aka Kit works at Prufrock Prep as a substitute teacher 1991 - Island Schism, Thursday leaves the Island 1992/93 - Friday Caliban is born 1997 - Sunny is born Late 1998 - ASOUE Early 1999 - Beatrice II is born August/September 1999 - Lemony publishes TBB and TRR 2000 - Chapter 14 2001 - LSTUA 2009 - Lemony meets Beatrice II, publishes the rest of the series afterwards
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Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Apr 2, 2021 12:40:50 GMT -5
This is getting better. Beatrice Jr especially had not read TWW when she wrote letter 2. (She didn't recognize the leech)
In addition, Lemony's research certainly began while the main events of asoue were still in progress, as we have an outline of what would become the introduction of TBB into the hospital H according to LSTUA. That was before Hospital H was destroyed. Still, the letters to Kit are a challenge to be overcome. We realized that Lemony believed Kit was alive while he wrote TSS and TGG. However, Kit was dead and he didn't know it yet. I think Beatrice Jr would not fail to mention that.
In addition, Beatrice Jr's search for Lemony seems to have understood for several years. I believe there is evidence that the first time Beatrice Jr was at Lemony's apartment was before she entered VFD, and the last time she tried to meet Lemony at his apartment, she had already entered VFD and had already been trained and her tutor had already left her alone. I deduce that some years have passed in this process. So I think the meeting with Lemony happened after the publication of TGG. But Beatrice Jr's search for Lemony in fact must have started after the publication of TRR.
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Post by counto on Apr 3, 2021 3:27:40 GMT -5
Ok that's great we've settle on an ASOUE timeline (1998-1999), also congratulations on winning Ghastliest Gamer Winner.
I'm not sure about Beatrice II entering VFD due to around the same time VFD started to dissolve. Also I believe Lemony was in the process of writing TWW, TMM, TAA, TEE, TVV, THH, TCC, TSS, TGG and TPP at the time during the first two books were published ten years ago. But held out on publishing it until he knew what happened to the Baudelaire's after Hotel Denouement fire. Hench when he meet Beatrice II, he published all including TE.
Now moving on with the character ages, Lemony is 36-37 in ASOUE (Born in Feb 28, 1962). Note: I'm using D. Handler's birthday as reference since he is both author and character. Jacques and Kit Snicket are believed to be 2 years old than Lemony, since it's a popular belief. Since the first half of ASOUE (TBB, TRR, TWW, TMM) possible take place in late 1998 and second half (TAA, TEE, TVV, THH, TCC, TSS, TGG, TPP and TE) happening in the early to late Feb 1999.
Jacques and Kit's birthdays are Jan 12, TVV to TE take place throughout February making them both 39. The Denouement Triplets were almost five when the VFD Schism starts, so it's likely their between 39-40 years old. Olaf I imagine would be in his early or mid 40's, he just looks older due to years of villainy. Next with Beatrice and Ramona "R" (cause I'm naming her that now as tribute to Beverly Clearly) are both a year younger than Lemony making them 35 at the start of the series.
Bertrand Baudelaire I also think is around 35-36 in TBB. With Jerome and Esme Squalor I estimated that the two are three years age difference. Jerome being 38 (1961) and Esme being 34-35 (1964). Fernald has been challenge since he was born almost 18 years before Fiona and Esme knew his mother. However I think Esme either lied or maybe knew her when she was still a child. The second sounds more probable. For now I put him being 33-34 in TGG, so he was almost 18 when Fiona was born and 22 when he joined Count Olaf.
Other characters like Monty, Josephine, Justice Strauss, Sir, Bass and Remora, Hal and Ishmael I'm still having trouble placing them.
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Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Apr 3, 2021 6:31:03 GMT -5
Couto, the TBBRE notes indicate that Lemony already knew about what happened on the island during the research he did to write TBB. They also indicate that each book has been published over the years. Lemony claims about publishing a possible book 13 reporting on the island if he survived. He says that the island on which it is forbidden to remove apples is the island on which the Baudelaires stayed. So I believe that Lemony had information about what happened to the Baudelaires until the events on the island, since he published TBB. (Although research for the publication of TBB began before the Baudelaires arrived on the island). He was researching, ended up suffering a shipwreck, stopped on the island, found the island book, left the island, went back to the city, and started to confirm if the events described in the island book were really true. So he asked things like, "Do you confirm that this or that happened?"
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Post by counto on Apr 5, 2021 2:58:01 GMT -5
Right, that was my past argument beforehand about Lemony coming to the Island and discovering the book. So I think it's fair to say that he found the book on the Island before publishing TBB and TRR.
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Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Apr 5, 2021 3:30:18 GMT -5
Furthermore, when Lemony published TRR, it had been more than a year since the events with Uncle Monty, as Lemony says that Klaus spent years (in the plural) wondering if he could save him. This is written in TRR.
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Post by counto on Apr 6, 2021 3:19:13 GMT -5
Dang, so it may take more time in-between the end of ASOUE and publication of the books. Going back to the whole Year of the Rat thing with Beatrice II (1996). Which perhaps may actually be true and Lemony just added in elements of anachronism in the series to throw the audience off.
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Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Apr 6, 2021 6:33:35 GMT -5
I didn't understand why you abandoned the 1995 idea. For me it was the best thing. Everything was falling into place, wasn't it? The main events started to take place in 1995, but lasted until 1997. In 1999 Lemony published TBB. (Dante was the one who suggested something like that, but not with those dates. RIP. He just wanted to justify what Lemony wrote in TRR. That was in one of our private conversations). Beatrice Jr was born in 1996.
In 2006 Lemony published TPP. Soon after that, he meets Beatrice Jr. Then he starts looking for the poem My Silence Knot for a few years. After finding it, he publishes TBL and TE.
Beatrice Jr must be at least 7 years old when she first tried to find Lemony. (Children are very efficient in the ASOUE universe). So TWW must have been published in 2003, before Lemony escaped abroad.
In 2003, Lemony published TWW, Prufrock Prep was still working. He went to Prufrock Prep, took the letter that was there. That same year, the search for reptiles that survived took place. That same year, the ball was held at which Lemony was captured. In 2003, Miss K goes to Prufrock Prep. Beatrice Jr enters VFD shortly after that.Prufrock Prep stops working in 2003.
And then, in 2003, Lemony is captured, arrested, his trial is postponed. He is considered wanted again, he starts writing TMM, and says he would do a good deal by getting a ticket abroad. At the same time, research on the other places where the Baudelaires were, continues, so he was already researching near Dark Avenue, at the same time according to LSTUA chapter 1. At the end of 2003, when Lemony's funeral took place, he embarks on Prospero and goes abroad.
In 2005, Lemony returns from abroad, and sends the TMM manuscript (which he had already started before going abroad) to the dear editor, along with a letter to R in a bubble gum pack. R claims that Lemony has been dead for years (from 2003 to 2005).In early 2006, Lemony public TAA. He says that Prufrock Prep has been closed for many years (2003 to 2006).
Hence, he continues to write (more quickly this time, because he had already done a lot of research before fleeing abroad). Throughout 2006, he published TAA, TEE, TVV, THH, T.C.C. TBBRE. (He still didn't know that Kit was dead, which is why he inserts the secret message in T.C.C.) Still in 2006 he goes to the countryside, to search for more details about T.C.C. and then he goes to the mountains, where he spends months researching details about what he was going to publish (still in 2006) about T.S.S. Lemony has not yet proved his innocence, so he writes the letter to Kit stating that he planned to go to Hotel D. (The Hotel was rebuilt between 1996 and 2006). Lemony went to GG in 2006, dug in the sand looking for more information about the Baudelaires. Lemony finished writing TGG in some kind of restaurant, where he believed that he could somehow save Kit by doing something on his food plate. (I have strong reason to believe that someone was impersonating Kit). Then, he finally went to the reconstructed Hotel, threw stones into the water waiting for Kit to appear, but Kit did not appear. She was dead, after all. But he didn't know. Lemony went to the secret library, and found the evidence he needed to clear him. But while Lemony was at the hotel, he went through several dangers, as did his illustrator. He took several papers from the hotel, in which he wrote the letters to the editor. But when he did that, Hotel D had already been destroyed in flames again. The second destruction of Hotel D took place while Lemony finished writing TPP, in late 2006. (That's why Lemony talks about the Hotel as I was working at the beginning of the book, talks about the years that the secret library remained secret, and talks about the Hotel being left over from the fire at the end of the book).
Lemony sends the letter to the editor, and then quickly takes her proof of innocence to the police. He was declared innocent, and returned to the apartment where he lived and where he had an office. (He was no longer wanted by justice.) He then comes across Beatrice's letter written after she entered VFD. And Beatrice Jr starts to search for him and send several letters. And then finally in late 2006 or early 2007, Beatrice Jr meets Lemony and tells him about Kit and Olaf's death, and what happened in chapter 14.
What about? That makes 2003 and 2006 very full years ... But I think it fits, doesn't it? But we need to recognize that Miss K was not Kit. It could, however, be someone pretending to be Kit. LSTUA shows that disguises can be quite convincing.
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Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Apr 6, 2021 6:56:47 GMT -5
One detail, when I say "Lemony published" I mean Lemony's act of sending the manuscript to the editor. The publications themselves did not necessarily happen right away, as that depended on the Editor and not on Lemony. I believe that one of the cheesemakers pretended to be a doorkeeper and passed on some of the writings and documents collected by Lemony, Kit and Jacques to the editors sometime in 2006. These documents were called LSTUA.
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Post by counto on Apr 8, 2021 2:29:43 GMT -5
Look the main reason I chose to differ from the first ASOUE timeline was because I felt it didn't feel right to me. Perhaps I'm looking over this as a fan more than a theorist. One thing that I think is that the Masquerade Ball may be in the past rather than the future.
Beatrice is alive during this event. If this was in the future after ASOUE Beatrice would've already been dead. Or perhaps Beatrice survived the fire and went into hiding after that. But if that were true, why didn't she try and find her children? If she did manage to escape with or without her husband Bertrand, wouldn't her first priority be to protect them? We know that Lemony says "Count Olaf is..." before the scene ends leaving us on a cliffhanger.
Now we don't what he was about to say to after that, but there is one possible along these lines "Count Olaf is here!" "Count Olaf is back!" or "Count Olaf is dead!" Presuming this takes place before Lemony faked his death and Olaf's schism had already started. If not then you may be right.
The rest with him getting arrested and later escaping again sounds plausible, though it feels like a stretch.
Also perhaps we should exclude the bit about Mrs K, because we both have different opinions on this and like you said we don't to cause a Schism between us.
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Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Apr 8, 2021 4:00:39 GMT -5
Just to be clear ... The subject of Miss K appears in two theories of mine that differ from each other. In one theory Miss K is Kit, but there are parallel universes (caused by changes in the author's intention with respect to some details). In another theory Miss K is not Kit, but the universe is unified. I believe that it is necessary to leave beliefs aside, and follow what is written as theories are made, and only then make deductions.
That said, let's move on to the subject: When did the Ball where Lemony was captured take place? If we are in the unified universe, we need to consider the LSTUA documents to make the theory. According to LSTUA, the dance took place after the publication of TRR. (Because Genius's henchman read information in TRR. Genius's henchman was looking for information about the surviving reptiles. Lemony got the information about this search from Prufrock Prep after the henchman, disguised as a cow, passed by. letter that Lemony sent to R, Lemoy states that the enemies are looking for the surviving reptiles. And in Sebald code, Lemony states that he goes to the Ball, even though he is dangerous.)
In addition, in R's letter to Lemony in which R talks about the Ball, R indicates that he saw the arrival of the TMM manuscript, along with the bubble gum wrappers, mentioned in the letter to the editor printed in TWW. In R's letter, she states that the ball at which Lemony was captured would have been the last to take place at her mansion. (In fact, the last major VFD event to date). Note that the only person who died in the main series of asoue who is quoted as being at the ball is Beatrice. It was expected that known characters of asoue would be cited, but this is not the case.
The real question is not, "When did the Ball happen?" why this is well exposed in LSTUA in many ways. The real question is, "Why did Lemony, when it was that ball, believe that Beatrice was alive, when he in TBB, TRR and TWW, which was written before that ball, claimed that Beatrice was dead?"
It is important to understand this question. Whether Beatrice was actually there or not is not the real question. The real question is why did Lemony believe this, if he already believed in something else before that, and came to believe again that Beatrice was indeed dead after that (when he published other books)?
From there, we have the deductions. I have already looked into the matter, and the best answer, from my point of view, is this: "Lemony was deceived." And I have evidence within the letter of R that indicates this.
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