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Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Dec 23, 2021 14:24:29 GMT -5
Rereading BB to LS#4. I think these are one of the most important letters from the young Beatrice to Lemony. This is a letter that is fundamental to assemble the puzzle that is the story of what happened to Beatrice Jr. A great puzzle that is impossible to completely solve is the exact chronology of events. I don't propose to solve this, but I propose to present something that I consider a fact unnoticed by many fans over all these years. I mean... It might not matter to most fans, but both Beatrices matter a lot to me. I want to point out that some years separate the writing of BB to LS#4 and the writing of the letter to the editor, which I will soon highlight. Beatrice finds herself in a training room. She is obviously at a VFD school in The City, the same VFD boarding school that Lemony attended. Again, Beatrice Jr chooses specific words that had been used by Lemony years before in other letters. Even in the first paragraph Betrice makes an interesting choice of words. It says: "For instance: A Baticeer" is a person qho trains bats. I Learned that in a poem I watched you read." This scenario indicates that Beatrice Jr was in theoretical training in VFD, which as we know lasts for at least a few years. Only after that does one go into her hands-on training. This one for in turn, it lasts at least a few months, with the person being accompanied by an instructor during that time. We saw this up close on ATWQ, but this is also quoted by Beatrice in BB to LS#5. Beatrice Jr was not yet a bat trainer when she wrote this letter, but she would still become during her training. All of this makes me conclude that there is a gap of at least 1 year, and possibly more, between letters 4 and 5 . Furthermore, in the second paragraph Beatrice describes the moment when Lemony encountered the poem My Silence Knot, evidently the poem in which there is the definition of Baticeer. Beatrice describes the moment as follows: "I followed you from the library, where you stood for nearly an hour staring into a glass case containing old documents on display for the "Staged Petry: Sonnets by Actors and Actresses" exhibit." Then, in Lemony's letter to the editor, Lemony wrote about this event as follows: "And now, after all is time, , examined in a hallway of the library, with the scrap of paper in the glass case... For many years The thought if I collected all these letters and their accompanying ephemera... this file is finished". In other words, it really took many years between writing letter 4 and writing the letter to the editor. But why would this be important? Well this is related to the very essence of ASOUE's fictional writing. TBL was published in Lemony's universe as well as each of ASOUE's books. Each book had a year of publication, and the publication of these books did not keep up with the main events described in them. When writing about the Baudelaires, Lemony is certainly writing about the past. Lemony is a researcher, not a stalker. But speaking of Lemony... At what point in his life was this letter written? By writing ASOUE's first three books, Lemony was leading a quiet life. From the publication of Book 4, Lemony became a fugitive, and remained without a fixed address until at least the publication of TSS, when he wrote that he could finally be cleared of the charges if he found fundamental evidence. I believe that at some point during the writing of TPP Lemony he finally found the evidence he needed, after all he was able to gain access to the secret library that remained intact after all those years. And that library was created to store evidence of crimes. Again, understanding that Lemony is chronicling the past when talking about the Baudelaires is critical to understanding the story behind the ASOUE story. I want to demonstrate that understanding the passage of years is also important to understanding TBL. In any case, Lemony already had a fixed address when Beatrice Jr wrote this letter. So it seems that Lemony had already published TPP when this letter was written. However, TE was only published after Lemony wrote the letter to the editor of TBL. This makes us think of a gap of a few years between the writing of TPP and TE, as the poem was seen by Lemony at the time of writing this letter, and TE was written at the time of writing the letter to the editor of this book. This pause in the search for events related to the Baudelaires is important to understand the development of the Lemony Snicket character. For many years Lemony focused on understanding the Baudelaire story in detail. But finally, he spent years trying to understand his own story.
This shift in perspective made Lemony decide to end the Baudelaires story in book 13. He planned to unravel more details about what happened after they left the island, as indicated in TBB the Rare Edition. But Lemony got tired of it. He had a life after all. And it's very interesting that Lemony Snicket's next books weren't about the Baudelaires, they were about himself. In LSTUA Lemony had already shown that he had the hope of one day having his own recorded history... But he decided that it would be better not to wait for his death for that to happen.
Going back to letter 4, I would like to highlight the last paragraph. Beatrice, in this letter again is not interested in information about the Baudelaires. She wants to meet her uncle. Notice what she says: "The three Baudelaires may be long gone, but there is a fourth Baudelaire here, waiting for you." These are not the words of a girl who desperately wants to find her parents. These are the words of a girl who desperately wants to find her uncle. In other words, Beatrice Jr seems to be having similar character development to Lemony's: she's detaching herself from the Baudelaires' story and focusing on her own story, and the way she's found to do that is by looking for a blood relative.
She again mentions that she is waiting for Lemony to untie "My Silence Knot". Evidently she's using this as some sort of code, hoping it will motivate Lemony to talk to her. Of course that must have confused Lemony more than anything else. This was Beatrice Senior's way of talking to him. At this point it's not a mystery how Beatrice knows about this expression "My Silence Knot". After all, she saw the poem the day she wrote the letter. The real mystery is in the letter BB to LS#1, which will be the next letter I will discuss.
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TheAsh
Formidable Foreman
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Post by TheAsh on Dec 23, 2021 17:24:37 GMT -5
"And it's very interesting that Lemony Snicket's next books weren't about the Baudelaires, they were about himself"
That's a fascinating observation!!!
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Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Dec 23, 2021 17:51:07 GMT -5
Thanks for the remark TheAsh! This motivates me a lot to continue.
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TheAsh
Formidable Foreman
Posts: 175
Likes: 99
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Post by TheAsh on Dec 24, 2021 1:57:49 GMT -5
Thanks for the remark TheAsh! This motivates me a lot to continue. Please do! I am enjoying the series immensely. I don't have time to participate so much (I am in grad school with no free time at all) but I read every post!
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Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Jan 2, 2022 16:16:43 GMT -5
Rereading BB to LS #1 This really is Beatrice Jr's most mysterious letter ever. This letter has already taken me in the most different directions. I am currently convinced that the key to understanding it is to consider the possibility that the letter is in the wrong order. As Hermes said, you have to keep in mind that there was a mystery about who Beatrice was when the book was published. Even taking that into account, as much as I understand when the book was published, I don't agree that the mystery of who Beatrice was was being treated as a great mystery by Daniel Handler when he wrote this book. TBL reveals a few things by itself: There are two beatrices, one of them died and the other was still alive. This is made clear in the letter to the editor. Beatrice who was dead is Lemony's old love. The Beatrice who was alive was looking for Klaus, Sunny and Violet and Lemony Snicket. This basic plot doesn't hide any sensational secrets. I believe the editors, reading what Daniel Handler wrote, realized that it would be interesting to publish before TE rather than after TE, just to heighten public curiosity about "the Beatrice mystery" that would be definitively solved in the last word of TE. But TBL is not about "Who is Beatrice?" As many times as I read, I can only perceive TBL as "since you've read asoue, have a little more fun with this epistolary novel that tells a fragmented story about what happened before and what happened after the main story of asoue but which evidently contains mechanisms to avoid important spoilers for those who happen to decide to read this book before reading asoue." I think that despite being a very mysterious letter, BB to LS#1 shows the intention of the author when he makes it very clear that the Beatrice who was writing this letter could not, under any circumstances, be the Beatrice the author was in love with. Beatrice Jr wrote: "Now I must... write to a man I have never seen." This sentence would be dismissed if the author's intention was to try to confuse the reader about the identity of Beatrice Jr. This seems to have been written thinking of the people who already knew about the existence of Beatrice Jr. On the other hand, there is a clear intention of the author to leave a mystery for the reader to try to solve. And that mystery is not "who is Beatrice". This mystery was stated clearly in the letter to the editor, and I repeated it here: "The Beatrice letters could explain the Beatrice letters and even the Beatrice letters, no matter which letters they are, and no matter what ORDER the letters are in." The mystery has always been "What's the order?" This is said not only by Lemony, but by Beatrice Jr herself, as if tipping the reader on "what's the mystery" in BB to LS #2: "I cannot determine what the letters would spell if I put them in you proper ORDER." "What is the order of the letters?" That's the mystery of TBL. If you've understood Beatrice Jr's story backwards, as I've discussed so far, finding the right position for BB to LS#1 isn't all that difficult. When BB to LS #5 was written, Beatrice Jr was already a VFD member with some experience, as her tutor had already left. She was already known as Baticeer, as she referred to bat training. When she wrote BB to LS#4, she was in theoretical VFD training. She wrote #4 less than 24 hours after she read the poem My Silence Knot. It was when she read this poem that she discovered the meaning of the word "baticeer". It doesn't take much effort to deduce that she only became a baticeer after reading this poem, as before that she didn't even know the meaning of it. Furthermore, she must have only become a baticeer during her practical training, as the activity of training bats is something much more practical than theoretical.
All that being said, I want to inform you that I believe the correct position of this letter should be between the letters BB to LS#4 and BB to LS#5. It's true that some things may seem a little out of place and out of order at first reading. However, I believe they were purposely written this way to make it difficult for the letter to be correctly positioned, and even to allow it to be moved, allowing for a game of anagrams with letters. The way this letter is written is what allows this game to be a reality. Also, it is one thing when the letter was written and another thing is when the letter was received by Lemony. In any case, my opinion should not be taken as definitive, because as Lemony said, the variation in the order of the letters allows for a different understanding of our understanding of the set of letters as a whole. But at the moment I believe the way I suggest is the simplest explanation of when this letter was written.
First, in the first paragraph Beatrice Jr claims to have the ability to use a communication network to get the letter to reach Lemony's office. Second, Beatrice demonstrates awareness that Lemony's office is "smal and dusty". She also knew the exact location of Lemony's apartment. More interesting than all this is the fact that it makes a direct reference to bat training. It says, "All I can two hope for the best, but hoping for the best, like hoping for a bat to obey your orders, almost always leads to disappointment." All of that first paragraph makes me imagine a Beatrice Jr who was already in her hands-on VFD training.
If the way I'm thinking is really right, the phrase: "For years a I kept quiet, feeling all my words twisting and tangling inside me like skeins of yarn," in addition to being a reference to a letter Lemony had written to Beatrice Sr, (letter Beatrice Jr had access to years earlier in Lemony's own office), also indicates that years have passed since Beatrice Jr's last contact with Lemony through letter (BB to LS#4).
Now, let us move on to the consideration of the paragraph which seems to contradict everything I have said, namely paragraph 4 of this letter. Beatrice claims she was told a few things about Lemony, like the fact that the word detective was printed on his office door. If she had already been there, why would it be necessary for someone to tell her about what they had printed on Lemony's door? I think the answer evidently lies in the time that elapsed between Beatrice Jr.'s going to Lemony's office for the first time (BB to LS #2) and the time BB to LS#1 was written. Many years had passed, so in the meantime Lemony had already been cleared of his crimes, and he could have set up a small private detective agency in his own office. When she was first there, Lemony was a fugitive from justice... Few people would hire a fugitive as a private detective. Lemony's career as a detective must have officially started after he was exonerated. Before that, he was best known as a biographer, an obituary writer, a theater critic... All very much related to being a writer. He had worked as a detective in his practical training in VFD, as we now know from the ATWQ, and was only able to practice this profession after publishing TPP. So when Beatrice Jr first came to Lemony's office, there wasn't even the name "detective" printed on his door. But, while she was in her practical training, that name had already been printed, after all, many years had passed between one event and another.
The same paragraph shows something that favors my ideas. The sentence: "I am hoping you will discuss your past with me. I am hoping you will tell me a story that began many years ago." Beatrice shows interest not only in her adoptive parents, but she also shows interest in Lemony's own past. This same interest is seen in the BB to LS#5.
Also, paragraph 4 talks a lot about things Beatrice Jr was told. Who could share details about Lemony's past involving something that was a kind of classroom if not someone who belongs to the VFD? It also strengthens the idea that this letter was written when she was already involved with VFD.
An important detail is that in #5 Beatrice Jr hints that she met her adoptive parents recently, and that she will be seeing them again later. Already here in #4, she claims that at that moment she is looking for her family, namely Violet, Klaus and Sunny Baudelaire. With this in mind, we can conclude that this search for her parents gave results. She found them (or found people she believes to be them) and then (before writing #5) she lost them again. Despite this, it is quite likely that Beatrice Jr realized that Lemony had not received any of her previous letters when she wrote this letter. She thought it was important to introduce herself again, as if Lemony had never heard of her, as can be seen in paragraph 5. It is precisely her attitude that may have been the cause of so much confusion about where this letter should be placed. While the letter has a tone of "I'm introducing myself" it has information that shows Beatrice Jr was already involved with VFD. But I think the simplest way to reconcile these two realities is to understand the matter from the point of view I just demonstrated. A final detail that highlights that Beatrice was in her practical training is the note: "PS - Day woud be better because my bedtime is fairly early". If Beatrice Jr were just the lone orphan in the world, it would be unlikely that she would be so strict with herself about bedtime. On the other hand, if she was with a VFD tutor, it is more likely that this tutor would set a bedtime.
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Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Jan 3, 2022 12:37:28 GMT -5
Rereading BB to LS #3 Now that I've properly positioned in my BB to LS#1 theory between BB to LS# 4 and BB to LS#5, let's go to the card that chronologically precedes BB to LS #4, which is BB to LS #3. In the first paragraph we have important temporal information: Beatrice Jr had not yet learned the Sebald code. The eldest pastor, who knew Lemony, tried to pass her a message in Sebald code, but she couldn't understand, as at this time she hadn't yet gotten into VFD. Second, Beatrice demonstrates that she did not know what she would do to get this letter into Lemony's hands, as she no longer had the financial resources to send the letter. This explains why this letter must have taken a long time to reach Lemony's hands, causing the letters to reach his hands out of order. In the second paragraph, Beatrice Jr describes her trip to Lemony's cave. She comes across a cave full of bats. Unlike BB to LS #1, where Beatrice makes a reference to training bats with no natural context, here the natural context exists, but she makes no reference to bat training. I find it interesting to note that this was one of Lemony's hiding places while he was trying not to go to jail. If Lemony was still a fugitive at this time, Beatrice Jr's going to this cave must have happened at some point between the publication of book 4 and the publication of TPP, as it is from the publication of these books where already indications that Lemony was facing problems with justice when being accused of a crime. In the second paragraph we also have important information: Beatrice Jr has a collection of letters with her. She claims that in this collection there are Lemony's initials letters and the letters she found in Lemony's office. This indicates that Beatrice Jr actually "confiscated" the letters she found there. I think this is an important fact to understand Beatrice Jr's choice of words in some letters. Surprisingly, the choice of words is very similar to the choice adopted by Lemony in the letters he wrote to Beatrice Sr. This can be explained by the fact that Beatrice Jr had read those private letters and decided to adopt the same phraseology, or demonstrate her knowledge. Even in this letter, the definition of "a brae-man" is exactly the one used by Lemony in LS to BB#5 question 6. She also claims that R is someone she believes Lemony knows. This information must also come from the letters she confiscated. Another important detail is that Beatrice Jr says she doesn't know if the letters are actually being received by Lemony or not. I think this is important as I will point out shortly that I believe Beatrice Jr's true first letter to Lemony is not in the set called TBL. And another detail is that trip to the mountainous region happened during the sleet season. In paragraph 3, Beatrice states that it has been a hard years journey. So again here the passage of time is an important factor in understanding TBL. Beatrice Jr claims to have followed the entire path left by Lemony in his office. Everything indicates that the years of journey she refers to are precisely the time she spent following this path. The last paragraph is one of the most intriguing of TBL. Beatrice Jr claims that she will try to find Lemony based on the information regarding the cafe where he usually drinks root-beer-float. She later claims it's important to find her family because her memories are failing. She remembers only glimpses of the events surrounding the three Baudelaires. Among these developments is the fact that she has already heard Sunny on a radio show. I think it's more likely that she thinks she recognized the voice of someone she believes to be Sunny on a radio show and it's mixed in with her memories... Anyway, this isn't definitive evidence that the Baudelaires survived... But it is definitive evidence that Beatrice Jr believes they survived based on evidence that is definitive for her. But anyway, if we put this information together with what we have in BB to LS#5, we can make some important deductions: On the way back to The City, Beatrice Jr met up with people she believes to be the Baudelaires. They spent several misadventures together, including something that involved Violet's emergency repair to something that allowed Beatrice Jr to come into town to look for Lemony. After that, she left town to search for Lemony once more in the mountainous region with the help of the notes she got from Klaus. But this other trip wasn't during sleet season, but during flower season, as she was able to feed on wildflowers on the way back to town according to Sunny's recipes. And it was during this meeting with these possible Baudelaires that they told her about the VFD school. Apparently they split up before Beatrice Jr.'s second trip to the mountains, as she relied only on Klaus' notes and Sunny's recipes and not their advice themselves.
This whole description found in BB to LS#5 is very different from what Beatrice Jr said in BB to LS#3: "As the time goes on, many memories fade. Violet trying her hair up in a ribbon... klaus squiting at a book through his glasses, Sunny appearing on the radio to discuss her recipes - I don't want these to be the ONLY things I remember the three most important people in my life." When she wrote this letter, she barely remembered anything about the three Baudelaires. On the other hand, when she wrote BB to LS#5, she even had specific information that helped her get into VFD. Whether these people are the real Baudelaires or not, those people have become important to Beatrice Jr.
Something interesting about this specific letter is the letter "K" at the bottom of the page. I think Lemony was about to write to Kit, even though Kit is dead. In other words, Lemony didn't know yet that Kit was dead. It's interesting to think about it: even in TBL written at about the same time as T, Daniel Handler imagined Lemony as having discovered Kit's death long after the death happened. And this justifies the existence of the secret letter in TSS.
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Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Jan 7, 2022 16:59:54 GMT -5
Rereading BB to LS #2 I believe this is the oldest letter written out of all the letters from Beatrice Jr to Lemony that we have access to on TBL. Beatrice claims to have arrived in town for the first time in her life at the time she wrote this letter. There is no reference in this letter to training bats, nor is there any reference to the poem My Silence Knot. Interestingly, in the 1st paragraph we realized that Lemony lived near a place where there was a fire. Probably nearby were the royal gardens. Unfortunately the plot involving the burning of the royal gardens and the poisonous plants that existed there remains a mystery. More interesting than that is the fact that it was subtly quoted in TBL, one of the last (perhaps the last) book by asoue. It's as if this fire held an important secret... In the 2nd paragraph we notice that Lemony apparently just ran away, leaving everything behind, including the markings on a map of where he was about to go. This highlights the fact that Lemony had information about where the Baudelaires had gone years before. As I said in my rereading of TE, Lemony had access to writings left by the Baudelaires themselves.
Understanding that Lemony has published asoue over several years is critical to understanding TBL. This letter was written during the publication of the first books, while he was yet to become a fugitive. Proof of this is that Beatrice Jr did not recognize the paperweight, that is, the leech. She hadn't read TWW yet. In fact, it is likely that by this time she had not read any of Lemony's books, only heard that he had done research. In paragraph 4 Beatrice Jr claims that she heard rumors about Lemony's research. This expression implies that she had never read the books personally when she wrote this letter. In paragraph 3 there is a description of the letter box she found. I believe Lemony's old letters to Beatrice were there, and Beatrice Jr had the opportunity to read them and take them with her. Because of this similar phraseologies began to appear in chronologically written letters later. Beatrice says: "The Only letter missing is the one I felt you." That is, there is a letter missing in that set. A letter of which Beatrice Jr states: "Either it never arrived or you have taken it with you." I strongly believe the first option is the right one. One of Beatrice Jr's letters to Lemony is missing because it just never arrived, and it's the real first letter. What would be the content of this letter? Well, in addition to presenting herself correctly, Beatrice Jr asked several questions, more than 12. In BB to LS #5 Beatrice Jr wrote: "Why won't you answer any of my questions? I must have at least twelve." We do not have access to any letter that has more than 12 questions from Beatrice to Lemony, which leads us to deduce that this letter is not in the file called TBL. In the last paragraph Beatrice Jr does not express any specific interest in learning about Lemony's past. She wants information about the Baudelaires, something that can help her find them, and that's all. What must have made Beatrice Jr at some point want to know about Lemony's past? I believe that was when she realized that Lemony was her uncle. Someone must have told her something... Maybe the people she believes are the Baudelaires she met at some point, as I've already mentioned. Because there were very few people in the world who could give her that kind of information... I think exactly 3 people.
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TheAsh
Formidable Foreman
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Post by TheAsh on Jan 15, 2022 17:42:21 GMT -5
Rereading BB to LS #2 I believe this is the oldest letter written out of all the letters from Beatrice Jr to Lemony that we have access to on TBL. Beatrice claims to have arrived in town for the first time in her life at the time she wrote this letter. There is no reference in this letter to training bats, nor is there any reference to the poem My Silence Knot. Interestingly, in the 1st paragraph we realized that Lemony lived near a place where there was a fire. Probably nearby were the royal gardens. Unfortunately the plot involving the burning of the royal gardens and the poisonous plants that existed there remains a mystery. More interesting than that is the fact that it was subtly quoted in TBL, one of the last (perhaps the last) book by asoue. It's as if this fire held an important secret... In the 2nd paragraph we notice that Lemony apparently just ran away, leaving everything behind, including the markings on a map of where he was about to go. This highlights the fact that Lemony had information about where the Baudelaires had gone years before. As I said in my rereading of TE, Lemony had access to writings left by the Baudelaires themselves. Understanding that Lemony has published asoue over several years is critical to understanding TBL. This letter was written during the publication of the first books, while he was yet to become a fugitive. Proof of this is that Beatrice Jr did not recognize the paperweight, that is, the leech. She hadn't read TWW yet. In fact, it is likely that by this time she had not read any of Lemony's books, only heard that he had done research. In paragraph 4 Beatrice Jr claims that she heard rumors about Lemony's research. This expression implies that she had never read the books personally when she wrote this letter. In paragraph 3 there is a description of the letter box she found. I believe Lemony's old letters to Beatrice were there, and Beatrice Jr had the opportunity to read them and take them with her. Because of this similar phraseologies began to appear in chronologically written letters later. Beatrice says: "The Only letter missing is the one I felt you." That is, there is a letter missing in that set. A letter of which Beatrice Jr states: "Either it never arrived or you have taken it with you." I strongly believe the first option is the right one. One of Beatrice Jr's letters to Lemony is missing because it just never arrived, and it's the real first letter. What would be the content of this letter? Well, in addition to presenting herself correctly, Beatrice Jr asked several questions, more than 12. In BB to LS #5 Beatrice Jr wrote: "Why won't you answer any of my questions? I must have at least twelve." We do not have access to any letter that has more than 12 questions from Beatrice to Lemony, which leads us to deduce that this letter is not in the file called TBL. In the last paragraph Beatrice Jr does not express any specific interest in learning about Lemony's past. She wants information about the Baudelaires, something that can help her find them, and that's all. What must have made Beatrice Jr at some point want to know about Lemony's past? I believe that was when she realized that Lemony was her uncle. Someone must have told her something... Maybe the people she believes are the Baudelaires she met at some point, as I've already mentioned. Because there were very few people in the world who could give her that kind of information... I think exactly 3 people. Is it possible that the whole of ASOUE is to the second Beatrice? You know, the dedication is "to Beatrice", and I always assumed that it meant that Beatrice is the intended reader of theseries. We know Beatrice 1 is dead, but perhaps Beatrice two is the recipient? Just a thought.
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Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Jan 15, 2022 21:33:04 GMT -5
Is it possible that the whole of ASOUE is to the second Beatrice? You know, the dedication is "to Beatrice", and I always assumed that it meant that Beatrice is the intended reader of theseries. We know Beatrice 1 is dead, but perhaps Beatrice two is the recipient? Just a thought. Thanks for commenting! In fact, for a long time I came to think about it. In fact, for a while I thought that one way to resolve the issue surrounding the fact that Beatrice was at the Masked Ball that Lemony was arrested was "the Beatrice who was there was actually Beatrice Jr." That would be interesting indeed and very satisfying. Then I thought about this: Beatrice Jr was only able to meet Lemony in person after writing the letter BB to LS#6. And it seems that when this letter was written, Lemony had already been cleared of the charges. During the writing of most of the books, even at least TSS, Lemony was still being pursued by the law. The Masked Ball happened before the publication of TAA, so everything takes a while. Similarly, my thoughts involving the recipient of most dedications faded when I came to this conclusion. However, the recipient of the TE dedications (one of the dedications or both) could hypothetically be Beatrice Jr. However, this does not seem to be the case with the first dedication. According to the letter to the editor of TBL, Beatrice Jr was the remaining Beatrice, indicating that she was still alive. On the other hand, TE's first dedication reads: "To Beatrice- I cherished, you perished. The world's been nightmarished." This doesn't really apply to a living person. On the other hand, the dedication that precedes chapter 14 is: "To eatrice- We are like boats, passing in the night - particularly you." This is a poetic language that can be understood in different ways. One might think that a reference is made to Baudelaire's poem where death is compared to an arriving boat. (And whoever does this is likely to be right, as the poem is quoted on the same page.) But why would Lemony say he is also like a boat if he was alive while Baudelaire Sr was dead? One possible conclusion is not that the boats represent death itself, but the feeling that death leaves when loved ones die. In this case, both Lemony and Beatrice Jr shared the same sentiment, although Beatrice Jr perhaps felt it more deeply, as she may have lost both her biological parents and her adoptive parents.
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Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Jan 21, 2022 11:33:49 GMT -5
Rereading LS to BB# 6
I will now begin to consider Lemony's letters to Beatrice. The letter LS to BB#6 is actually a telegram. The letter was written at the end of the summer, during Beatrice's pregnancy. Everything indicates that she was pregnant with Violet.
An interesting detail about asoue's chronology is that we know that Beatrice left the Island in winter, during Decision Day, which happens every year in winter. We know that Violet was also born in winter. If Beatrice was indeed still pregnant at the end of the summer, we would have to conclude that the departure from the island took place around March and Violet's birth took place around December. However, this would not make sense within the story, because between Violet's birthday and Decision Day, there are no three months. (Remembering that Violet celebrated her birthday during the main events described in TGG). We know that it is unlikely that Dainel Handler thought of all these details, but it is still possible to resolve this apparent contradiction due to the delay that can exist in people receiving information about the pregnancy of ex-fiancees, especially when these people are pretending to be dead. So when Lemony wrote this letter at the end of the summer, it is very likely that Violet was already born and he didn't even know it. So Decision Day happened in winter, and Violet was born a few days or weeks after Beatrice and Bertrand left the island.
It is understood that there was such a delay, it is quite likely that information about what Betrice had done on the island, that is, found a cure for the deadly MM fungus, had not reached Lemony. I believe it is very likely that the danger that Lemony tried to warn Beatrice about involved the possibility of misuse of the deadly MM fungus. If the bitter apples near Serraria do indeed come from Beatrice's research work, then we know that this was a problem that managed to be solved, at least in part. Furthermore, the information that was passed on to everyone was that the deadly fungus had been totally destroyed. As Ish explained in TE, there was a fire in AA after the break in the tunnel construction, that is, after Beatrice and Bertrand left the island. So it seems that the dangerous subject the telegram was going to address involved the Gregor Anwistle Schism. The fact that Fiona was a baby at the time of these events only highlights the accuracy of these conclusions, as Fiona is slightly older than Violet.
As I have already explained, I believe that Beatrice Jr had access to this and other letters before she wrote BB to LS #1. In LS to BB #6, we find expressions identical to those used by Beatrice Jr in BB to LS#1. For example: "The distance between us is so very far and so very trouble" and "for a bat to obey your orders". Another similarity is that Lemony describes the possible difficulties the written message will face in reaching Betrice using phraseology similar to the one Beatrice Jr uses to describe the difficulties her letter would face in reaching Lemony.
Another interesting conclusion is that Lemony states in this letter that he and Beatrice spent time together in the mountains. Now that we know about what happened in ATWQ, we can only say that after Lemony's return from SBTS, he at some point went to VFD headquarters in the mountains, and spent time with Beatrice. This agrees with some claims made in TSS. Lemony refers to his companions in the VFD base as people of integrity and imagination. This is a description that contrasts with the view that Lemony seemed to have on VFD while he was in SBTS. Has his relationship with Beatrice softened that rebellious heart? Because everything indicates that it was there in the mountains that he fell in love with Beatrice again, since in SBTS, apparently he was free to fall in love with someone else, not even mentioning a possible relationship with Beatrice.
It's interesting to note that Lemony didn't think Beatrice thought he was dead. Lemony was also fully aware of Beatrice and Bertrand's marriage. So this is a strong indication that Beatrice never believed Lemony was dead. (Perhaps Bertand believed this). It is possible that Beatrice simply let Bertrand believe that she believed Lemony had died and so there was that possibility that if the baby was a boy it would be named Lemony. (I'd still like to know who the original "Violet" was.)
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TheAsh
Formidable Foreman
Posts: 175
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Post by TheAsh on Jan 29, 2022 17:08:00 GMT -5
It's interesting to note that Lemony didn't think Beatrice thought he was dead. Lemony was also fully aware of Beatrice and Bertrand's marriage. So this is a strong indication that Beatrice never believed Lemony was dead. I Don't understand the logic. I can think you are dead even if you know I am alive.
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Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Jan 30, 2022 1:19:15 GMT -5
I should have been clearer. In the letter Lemony doesn't say something like "Hi, I'm alive." The way he wrote it doesn't sound like he believes Bestrice believes he's dead. In fact, at no point is this matter considered in this letter. Lemony seems well-informed about current events wherever he is. So I think it unlikely that he simply doesn't know the news concerning his own death, news that might lead Bestrice to think he was dead. So, I think this is an indication that the publication regarding Lemony's false death at no time misled Bestrice. She just pretended to believe Lemony was dead, when in fact she knew he was alive. And Lemony knew that she knew he was alive.
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TheAsh
Formidable Foreman
Posts: 175
Likes: 99
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Post by TheAsh on Jan 30, 2022 7:26:32 GMT -5
I should have been clearer. In the letter Lemony doesn't say something like "Hi, I'm alive." The way he wrote it doesn't sound like he believes Bestrice believes he's dead. In fact, at no point is this matter considered in this letter. Lemony seems well-informed about current events wherever he is. So I think it unlikely that he simply doesn't know the news concerning his own death, news that might lead Bestrice to think he was dead. So, I think this is an indication that the publication regarding Lemony's false death at no time misled Bestrice. She just pretended to believe Lemony was dead, when in fact she knew he was alive. And Lemony knew that she knew he was alive. Maybe Lemony thought that Beatrice knew he was alive, but in reality, Beatrice did not? Beatrice does not seem to have known Lemony as well as Lemony thought he knew Beatrice.
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Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Feb 19, 2022 16:14:15 GMT -5
Rereading Ls to BB#5 and My Silence Knot This is a very curious letter, about which I have written a few times. It's a very beautiful letter, the answer to question nine being really touching, and it shows the depth of Lemony's feelings for Betrice. It's a really big letter, and I want to focus this text on information that is relevant to the general understanding of TBL. First, when was this letter written? In the chronology of Lemony Snicket's life there is a remarkable event in his life, which was the fact that he was unable to marry Beatrice, the woman he loves. However, I believe that Lemony's "non-marriage" to Beatrice should not be viewed as a one-time, isolated event. Through LSTUA we know that Lemony was unable to marry Beatrice in the first place, because Count Olaf would try to kill them during the wedding ceremony. (LSTUA chapter 5). According to LSTUA, Lemony fled abroad instead of marrying Beatrice, and received recommendations from Jacques Snicket not to try to contact Beatrice. (LSTUA chapter 6) Jacques was very specific: he told Lemony not to communicate with Beatrice even by carrier pigeons. Evidently, Lemony disobeyed this specific guideline, as he communicated with Beatrice via carrier pigeons. This indicates that Lemony wrote this letter when he was abroad after being prevented from getting married. The correct question is, why did Beatrice decide to call off her wedding to Lemony outright and not just wait for him? If we want to be simple, we can say that the answer appears in the letter itself: Although there is a message in Sebald code, apparently what the main text says is also true. Lemony wrote in paragraphs 2 and 3 that Beatrice's intentions regarding marriage changed because of the "Co-" and because of the "O." who is Count Oalf. Olaf had just threatened their lives, and she explained in the letter that they weren't getting married because of Count Olaf. This sounds simple to understand, but Beatrice's actions are not simple to understand. Because everything indicates that what Beatrice wrote in that letter definitively canceling the wedding was a lie! What we have here is what I like to call a piscological contradiction. Beatrice wrote the 200-page letter because she was forced to write the letter. How do I know this? First, how would Beatrice know where to send the carrier pigeons? Lemony had contacted her preliminarily after his escape, and had informed Beatrice of her exact location abroad. When Lemony disobeyed Jacques' specific instructions, he set off a tragic sequence of events. One of the most direct consequences that Lemony did to himself was getting Beatrice to send him a letter rejecting the marriage. Evidently, Beatrice was under surveillance when she wrote that letter, and she knew that Lemony's enemies would read that letter in order to verify that she had not passed on information that would alert him to the trap. For the purpose of Lemony's enemies was for that letter to make Lemony return to the country, in order to win back his bride and secure the marriage. Beatrice's letter to Lemony has conceptual similarities to R's letter to Lemony in Chapter 2 of LSTUA. R made an otherwise innocent request to Lemony: "Study these photos carefully," as the true information could be deduced from the photos. Similarly, on page 189 of Beatrice's letter, she discreetly asked Lemony to recall the poem My Silence Knot. In the poem was hidden the real information that Beatrice would like to pass on to Lemony. Something interesting is the number of pages in the letter: there are 200 pages in all. That's an unreasonably large number to explain why Beatrice called off her wedding to Lemony, especially if it can be summed up by Count Olaf's violent intervention. Lemony summed it up this way. We can see that the 200-page letter is full of repeated repetitions and unnecessarily detailed information similar to the content of Ivan's autobiography (Chapter 11 of LSTUA). After many useless pages, but before the end, Beatrice entered the all-important list of questions. She certainly believed that the enemy who was going to check the letter would give up reading it carefully when he got to that particular page, failing to notice the strategy adopted by Beatrice. Note this passage in LS to BB # 2: [...] “You and R. are probably learning how to convey coded messages in melodramatic dialogue as I write this.” [...] For Beatrice, the Poem My Silence Knot was very important. She wanted very much that Lemony had understood the meaning of the poem from the first time he watched the play. But Lemony did not understand the importance of the poem, nor the secret message contained in it. The LS to BB # 5 letter contains some responses from Lemony to Beatrice that indicate this. Notice that in the 200-page letter in which Beatrice explained to Lemony why she could not marry him, Beatrice made a point of asking if Lemony remembered the poem My Silence Knot, and everything indicates that Lemony did not remember. Similarly, Beatrice asked Lemony if he remembered the meaning of Baticeer. I am sure that this was not the answer that Beatrice expected to receive. She wanted Lemony to write something like, “Baticeer is the anagram of your name.” That’s because Beatrice, just after asking something like “Do you remember what Baticeer means?” She asked something like “Do you remember what an anagram is ?” She also asked Lemony something like this: “Do you understand what Brae-Man means?” Lemony should have answered something like: “I realized that in the play My Silence Knot the Brae-Man represented me.” However, Lemony replied : At last Beatrice wanted to point out again that the play and the poem contained a secret message. So Beatrice asked something like, “Do you believe that a letter, a word, a play, or a sonnet can be written in code?” This question was to stimulate Lemony to reason about the poem My Silence Knot, and the play itself and anagrams. If he had thought of these points, Lemony would have realized Beatrice’s true plan. Lemony replied: But the right question is: What is the secret message that is hidden in My Silence Knot? And why did Beatrice want Lemony to remember this poem, even when she was canceling her marriage? Now that I have stopped quoting myself, I can give my new opinion on the matter: evidently the secret message contained in that poem was now again very relevant. I tried for many years to deduce what the poem's secret message was. I made several absurd deductions. But sometimes, the answers are right in front of us, and we just can't see them. Now I think I did. What was Beatrice's state of mind when she wrote this poem? Well, we know that she wrote this poem specifically for a single performance. She knew Lemony was about to ask her something, and it wasn't hard to deduce that she suspected it would be a proposal. She also knew that their relationship would be fraught with difficulties as it was already fraught with difficulties. As I said, on the day of the proposal, Beatrice handed Lemony a knotted lock of hair. Surely the marriage proposal was made after the performance of that particular play performance in which this particular poem was printed in the play's program. Keeping all this in mind, the most important information of the poem is hidden in the first sentence of the poem: "My silence knot is tied up my hair as if to keep my love out of my eyes." By speaking these words and then handing over a lock of hair, Beatrice was making a declaration of love. I hypothesize that literally on the white ribbon of that knot that ties up Beatrice's lock of hair is a little declaration of love, something like "I want to marry you" or "I will love you forever". And it was all supposed to be a little joke: If Lemony understood the meaning of the poem, he would then receive the lock of hair, untie the knot, and read the message. That would be the answer to the marriage proposal. But unfortunately, Lemony paid no attention to the poem, and did not understand Beatrice's gift. Years later, when Beatrice was forced to write the letter, she asked Lemony to remember this poem. With that, he should finally untie the knot on that lock of hair, and then understand the truth: Beatrice still wanted to marry him. This true motivation of Beatrice is perceptible by the obvious question she asked Lemony, question number 9, something like "Are you going to keep loving me no matter what?" This question in a letter of definitively canceling a marriage is a psychological contradiction. The simplest explanation for this contradiction is that Beatrice wrote the contents of this letter against her will. Oh, and the end of the poem is also explained. It is important to know that Beatrice played a character who dies in the play. After stating that she couldn't talk to the person she cares about in the first stanza, Beatrice wrote: "The curtain falls just as the knot unties, the silence broken by the one who dies." The one who dies is Beatrice. (She died only in the play, and was not predicting her true death.) She broke the silence with her declaration of love for Lemony. And of course, untying the literal knot is what would break the silence, both at the time of the proposal and at the time of the 200-page letter. Because Lemony didn't understand the poem, he didn't fight to marry Beatrice, and simply accepted that she didn't want to marry him anymore. What followed were misunderstandings and false deaths that made communication between them even more difficult. Now that I understand this, I agree with Resemblance 's opinion: Beatrice probably believed that Lemony was really dead when she married Betrand, although Lemony mistakenly thinks she knew he was actually alive (at the time he wrote LS to BB#6. No wonder Lemony cried so hard when he found that poem and that lock of hair again. His life could have been totally different if he had understood the meaning of that poem.
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TheAsh
Formidable Foreman
Posts: 175
Likes: 99
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Post by TheAsh on Feb 20, 2022 0:28:41 GMT -5
Rereading Ls to BB#5 and My Silence Knot This is a very curious letter, about which I have written a few times. It's a very beautiful letter, the answer to question nine being really touching, and it shows the depth of Lemony's feelings for Betrice. It's a really big letter, and I want to focus this text on information that is relevant to the general understanding of TBL. First, when was this letter written? In the chronology of Lemony Snicket's life there is a remarkable event in his life, which was the fact that he was unable to marry Beatrice, the woman he loves. However, I believe that Lemony's "non-marriage" to Beatrice should not be viewed as a one-time, isolated event. Through LSTUA we know that Lemony was unable to marry Beatrice in the first place, because Count Olaf would try to kill them during the wedding ceremony. (LSTUA chapter 5). According to LSTUA, Lemony fled abroad instead of marrying Beatrice, and received recommendations from Jacques Snicket not to try to contact Beatrice. (LSTUA chapter 6) Jacques was very specific: he told Lemony not to communicate with Beatrice even by carrier pigeons. Evidently, Lemony disobeyed this specific guideline, as he communicated with Beatrice via carrier pigeons. This indicates that Lemony wrote this letter when he was abroad after being prevented from getting married. The correct question is, why did Beatrice decide to call off her wedding to Lemony outright and not just wait for him? If we want to be simple, we can say that the answer appears in the letter itself: Although there is a message in Sebald code, apparently what the main text says is also true. Lemony wrote in paragraphs 2 and 3 that Beatrice's intentions regarding marriage changed because of the "Co-" and because of the "O." who is Count Oalf. Olaf had just threatened their lives, and she explained in the letter that they weren't getting married because of Count Olaf. This sounds simple to understand, but Beatrice's actions are not simple to understand. Because everything indicates that what Beatrice wrote in that letter definitively canceling the wedding was a lie! What we have here is what I like to call a piscological contradiction. Beatrice wrote the 200-page letter because she was forced to write the letter. How do I know this? First, how would Beatrice know where to send the carrier pigeons? Lemony had contacted her preliminarily after his escape, and had informed Beatrice of her exact location abroad. When Lemony disobeyed Jacques' specific instructions, he set off a tragic sequence of events. One of the most direct consequences that Lemony did to himself was getting Beatrice to send him a letter rejecting the marriage. Evidently, Beatrice was under surveillance when she wrote that letter, and she knew that Lemony's enemies would read that letter in order to verify that she had not passed on information that would alert him to the trap. For the purpose of Lemony's enemies was for that letter to make Lemony return to the country, in order to win back his bride and secure the marriage. Beatrice's letter to Lemony has conceptual similarities to R's letter to Lemony in Chapter 2 of LSTUA. R made an otherwise innocent request to Lemony: "Study these photos carefully," as the true information could be deduced from the photos. Similarly, on page 189 of Beatrice's letter, she discreetly asked Lemony to recall the poem My Silence Knot. In the poem was hidden the real information that Beatrice would like to pass on to Lemony. Something interesting is the number of pages in the letter: there are 200 pages in all. That's an unreasonably large number to explain why Beatrice called off her wedding to Lemony, especially if it can be summed up by Count Olaf's violent intervention. Lemony summed it up this way. We can see that the 200-page letter is full of repeated repetitions and unnecessarily detailed information similar to the content of Ivan's autobiography (Chapter 11 of LSTUA). After many useless pages, but before the end, Beatrice entered the all-important list of questions. She certainly believed that the enemy who was going to check the letter would give up reading it carefully when he got to that particular page, failing to notice the strategy adopted by Beatrice. Note this passage in LS to BB # 2: [...] “You and R. are probably learning how to convey coded messages in melodramatic dialogue as I write this.” [...] For Beatrice, the Poem My Silence Knot was very important. She wanted very much that Lemony had understood the meaning of the poem from the first time he watched the play. But Lemony did not understand the importance of the poem, nor the secret message contained in it. The LS to BB # 5 letter contains some responses from Lemony to Beatrice that indicate this. Notice that in the 200-page letter in which Beatrice explained to Lemony why she could not marry him, Beatrice made a point of asking if Lemony remembered the poem My Silence Knot, and everything indicates that Lemony did not remember. Similarly, Beatrice asked Lemony if he remembered the meaning of Baticeer. I am sure that this was not the answer that Beatrice expected to receive. She wanted Lemony to write something like, “Baticeer is the anagram of your name.” That’s because Beatrice, just after asking something like “Do you remember what Baticeer means?” She asked something like “Do you remember what an anagram is ?” She also asked Lemony something like this: “Do you understand what Brae-Man means?” Lemony should have answered something like: “I realized that in the play My Silence Knot the Brae-Man represented me.” However, Lemony replied : At last Beatrice wanted to point out again that the play and the poem contained a secret message. So Beatrice asked something like, “Do you believe that a letter, a word, a play, or a sonnet can be written in code?” This question was to stimulate Lemony to reason about the poem My Silence Knot, and the play itself and anagrams. If he had thought of these points, Lemony would have realized Beatrice’s true plan. Lemony replied: But the right question is: What is the secret message that is hidden in My Silence Knot? And why did Beatrice want Lemony to remember this poem, even when she was canceling her marriage? Now that I have stopped quoting myself, I can give my new opinion on the matter: evidently the secret message contained in that poem was now again very relevant. I tried for many years to deduce what the poem's secret message was. I made several absurd deductions. But sometimes, the answers are right in front of us, and we just can't see them. Now I think I did. What was Beatrice's state of mind when she wrote this poem? Well, we know that she wrote this poem specifically for a single performance. She knew Lemony was about to ask her something, and it wasn't hard to deduce that she suspected it would be a proposal. She also knew that their relationship would be fraught with difficulties as it was already fraught with difficulties. As I said, on the day of the proposal, Beatrice handed Lemony a knotted lock of hair. Surely the marriage proposal was made after the performance of that particular play performance in which this particular poem was printed in the play's program. Keeping all this in mind, the most important information of the poem is hidden in the first sentence of the poem: "My silence knot is tied up my hair as if to keep my love out of my eyes." By speaking these words and then handing over a lock of hair, Beatrice was making a declaration of love. I hypothesize that literally on the white ribbon of that knot that ties up Beatrice's lock of hair is a little declaration of love, something like "I want to marry you" or "I will love you forever". And it was all supposed to be a little joke: If Lemony understood the meaning of the poem, he would then receive the lock of hair, untie the knot, and read the message. That would be the answer to the marriage proposal. But unfortunately, Lemony paid no attention to the poem, and did not understand Beatrice's gift. Years later, when Beatrice was forced to write the letter, she asked Lemony to remember this poem. With that, he should finally untie the knot on that lock of hair, and then understand the truth: Beatrice still wanted to marry him. This true motivation of Beatrice is perceptible by the obvious question she asked Lemony, question number 9, something like "Are you going to keep loving me no matter what?" This question in a letter of definitively canceling a marriage is a psychological contradiction. The simplest explanation for this contradiction is that Beatrice wrote the contents of this letter against her will. Oh, and the end of the poem is also explained. It is important to know that Beatrice played a character who dies in the play. After stating that she couldn't talk to the person she cares about in the first stanza, Beatrice wrote: "The curtain falls just as the knot unties, the silence broken by the one who dies." The one who dies is Beatrice. (She died only in the play, and was not predicting her true death.) She broke the silence with her declaration of love for Lemony. And of course, untying the literal knot is what would break the silence, both at the time of the proposal and at the time of the 200-page letter. Because Lemony didn't understand the poem, he didn't fight to marry Beatrice, and simply accepted that she didn't want to marry him anymore. What followed were misunderstandings and false deaths that made communication between them even more difficult. Now that I understand this, I agree with Resemblance 's opinion: Beatrice probably believed that Lemony was really dead when she married Betrand, although Lemony mistakenly thinks she knew he was actually alive (at the time he wrote LS to BB#6. No wonder Lemony cried so hard when he found that poem and that lock of hair again. His life could have been totally different if he had understood the meaning of that poem. This theory is so reasonable, it is probably true. In addition, your deductions of the original questions that you quoted were extremely on point. One thing: I am not sure how "against your will" the letter was. Do you mean that Olaf was physically forcing her? Why would O care about Beatrice's love life? Or do you mean psychologically? Beatrice may have fallen in love with Bertrand, and perhaps had said yes to him, and thus felt forced to call off her wedding to Lemony, while still loving Lemony. PS: I am in middle of your book and quite enjoying it. I"ll let you know when I'm done.
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