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Post by carmelita0cheryl on Aug 12, 2021 11:23:16 GMT -5
Behold a rare event when I decided to NOT talk about the adaptation, but about the books In FUTSI part 2, file Three suspects., page 33 the Mitchums said following “I admit that Mimi and I stayed up very late watching a double feature of scary movies.” “ Something with zombies in the winter,” Mimi said, “and something with giant bugs. We were scared out of our minds, and we’ve been exhausted all day....“ The first thing that comes to mind is that they were actually watching Zombies in the snow, but due to the RR and UA, ZITS was created to deliver message to Montgomery, which (as we know) occured many years after the ATWQ events.... What do you think about this?
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Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Aug 12, 2021 11:31:06 GMT -5
I'm glad someone else noticed this!! I've been saying for years that the movie Zombies in the Snow wasn't originally produced to deliver a message to Uncle Monty. I believe the message referred to some old case, unrelated to the Baudelaires. It is somewhat evident that Sebald was still a child when he produced this film, (there is a picture of him as a child working on the snowman). Sebald is quoted as already existing at the time of ATWQ, so we can conclude that at the time of ATWQ , Sebald was already a film director, despite being a child.
Gustav Sebald inserted the secret message regarding the three siblings we see in the photograph in LSTUA. Of course, if you put a secret message in a movie, every time you watch a rerun of the same movie, the same secret message will be replayed, even if the message in question is no longer relevant.
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Post by R. on Aug 12, 2021 15:29:03 GMT -5
Glad to know I wasn’t the only one either!
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Post by misstastrophe on Aug 13, 2021 11:29:46 GMT -5
i recently read ATWQ/FU13 and noticed this as well. i just assumed someone had already made a post about it because you all are awesome at noticing these things!
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Post by Hermes on Aug 16, 2021 17:27:10 GMT -5
I'm glad someone else noticed this!! I've been saying for years that the movie Zombies in the Snow wasn't originally produced to deliver a message to Uncle Monty. I believe the message referred to some old case, unrelated to the Baudelaires. It is somewhat evident that Sebald was still a child when he produced this film, (there is a picture of him as a child working on the snowman). Sebald is quoted as already existing at the time of ATWQ, so we can conclude that at the time of ATWQ , Sebald was already a film director, despite being a child. Gustav Sebald inserted the secret message regarding the three siblings we see in the photograph in LSTUA. Of course, if you put a secret message in a movie, every time you watch a rerun of the same movie, the same secret message will be replayed, even if the message in question is no longer relevant. Today I am going to be Dantesque [this is a real word, by the way] and severe. First, I'm doubtful about the photo evidence, because I think it's a running theme in TUA that the photos are not always genuine pictures of the things they are supposed to represent; and in this chapter this is especially so, since it is clearly not the same snowman in different pictures. But in any case; I find it hard to see why Lemony would be so anxious to get the script of a film produced long before, which cannot have included a clue relevant to the Baudelaires. Last time we discussed this, you suggested that the point was to find out whether Monty understood Sebald Code. But a. it's not clear why that would be important, if he did not get a new message in Sebald Code during the events of the series, and b. reading the script would not really answer this question , since if he did know SC, and decipher the message, this would not lead him to act in any particular way if the message was an old one.
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Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Aug 16, 2021 21:03:21 GMT -5
Okay, these arguments are my fault for my lack of clarity. Now that I have a little time to write a long dissertation on the subject, I will be happy to finally do so. Let's start with the validity of images. I think it's a mistake to generalize the entire LSTUA in any respect. Each document needs to be analyzed separately and verified in that document if there is evidence of tampering or not. The places where tampering is an important variable to consider are often highlighted in some way. On the other hand, when the image is not tampering, and this is an important factor for the text, this is also highlighted. We know that LSTUA's actual photos were originally family photos. But they were taken out of context in order to be part of the LSTUA universe. And whenever a photo like this has a textual justification, to show that what you're seeing is actually something from Lemony's universe, we have strong evidence that that photo hasn't been tampered with. Let's look at the examples from Sally Sebald's own letter, which is what we are discussing. In this image (above), the text perfectly matches what is being shown. So you can believe that what we have here is a retraction of what is being said. There are three actors from the movie in front of Snowman. There is no reason to believe that the photo has been replaced. Notice the word "notice". Sally Sebald is referencing the photo, and in the photo there is exactly what she is saying there is. It is evident that it is a justification of the real author, in a comical way, to make this image become part of the universe of asoue. The effect is comical, but we can still say that canonically in the movie Zombies in the Snow ceramic deer were used and that the deer used were those shown in the photograph. There is no reason to doubt that. Note that the actors are children. Knowing VFD, there is no reason to find this strange. It's funny, but canonical. But what justification did Daniel Handler find for the differences between the two snowmen in the two photographs? Note below: The justification is that Sebald's work is just beginning. Sebald may have changed his mind regarding the structure and location of the snowman. But that doesn't change the fact that there's a picture of him building the snowman. All other photos are consistent with what is being written by Sally, why would this one be an exception? ---------------------- Let's go to the next counterargument. As I said, the existence of the argument was due to my lack of clarity. I said the message was not for Uncle Monty. But I should have said that the message was not for Uncle Monty about the Baudelaires at the time of the main asoue events. In fact, everything indicates that the message was indeed for Uncle Monty but referring to an old case. And he didn't get the message correctly. As Hermes said, I defend the idea that Lemony's investigation into Zombies in the Snow was aimed at finding out whether or not Uncle Monty had learned the Sebald Code. I say this not because I make a complicated theory. I say this because it is verbatim written in Lemony's letter to the cheesemakers: The only thing we need to do is accept this as a fact. From there, questions arise that should not try to overturn the fact, but rather understand it: "Why would Lemony be interested in knowing if Uncle Monty had learned the Sebald code or not using an old case that was no longer relevant at the time of the main events narrated in ASOUE in order to reach a conclusion?" Accepting all this, the answer is simple: Another code had been sent to Uncle Monty regarding events relevant to the Baudelaires' history in some other film. It's easy to remember that Zombies in the Snow wasn't the only movie Uncle Monty watched during the days the Baudeliars spent there. They watched at least 10 movies. While Sebald himself didn't send a secret message in a film, any other producer may have inserted an important warning into a film that had just been released. (There is strong evidence that the Sebald Code has come to be used by different VFD people, and I won't even spend my time exemplifying this because I know this is public knowledge). In fact, the warning message for Monty didn't even have to come through a movie again. It may have come through a written message, because that's how the Sebald Code became popular in VFD after a while. But no matter what media the message was inserted in, Lemony needed to know why Uncle Monty didn't act on the message. Upon inquiry, Lemony deduced that Uncle Monty never learned the code because he had failed to help a survivor of an old fire simply because he didn't understand the code. Note: Someone related to these three children was inside the snowman. Maybe the blond young man himself who has a question mark next to his photo, maybe their mom or dad. That's why it was important for Uncle Monty to go to where the movie was being shot. Because there they would find the survivor of the fire. It's true that Sebald asked to bring the three children. If the survivor is one of their parents, that makes sense. If the survivor is the blond boy, the three children are another three, perhaps VFD members to help with the mission. And some other villain was undercover trying to trick Uncle Monty. I mean... The message just says to be careful, because he wasn't one of us. Maybe he was just an ordinary worker, but he wasn't a member of the pacifist side of VFD and you can't be too careful. By great coincidence Uncle Monty and the kids ended up watching this movie on the same day that several unfortunate events took place. But an important thing about ASOUE is the concept that the universe does not revolve around the Baudelaires. Not everything that happens is because of them and for them. "
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Post by Hermes on Aug 17, 2021 5:28:59 GMT -5
But Lemony does not say that he wanted the script in order to determine whether Monty learned Sebald code. He just says that he concluded he did not. Knowing that Monty saw a Sebald film during the time the Baudelaires were with him, he asks to see the script, to find out if there is a secret message in it. He finds there was, but one that Monty clearly did not decipher, so concludes that he did not learn Sebald code.
And if he knew Monty had received another coded message during the action of the story, and already knew he did not act on it, would not that in itself show that he did not know Sebald code? I'm not sure how finding another, older, message he also did not act on would make the matter clearer.
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Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Aug 17, 2021 6:12:45 GMT -5
Lemony defines himself, in the letter he sent to the cheesemakers, as a biographer of the Baudelaires. Lemony claims the cheesemakers are the second-to-last chance he has to make events about the Baudelires known to the public. Sally Sebald claims that she was pleased to hear that Lemony is alive and that Dr Orwell is dead, and that for years she imagined it was the other way around. All of this points to the fact that Lemony is a few years ahead of the main events described in Asoue when he sent this letter to the cheesemakers. And all of this points to the fact that Lemony is investigating what happened to the Baudelaires while they were at Uncle Monty's house. Evidently the question Lemony is trying to answer is, "Why didn't Uncle Monty protect the Baudelaires since he was warned about it?" Lemony needed to find that answer. He evidently had his suspicions, but Lemony always checks. And he made sure his suspicions were right, realizing that Uncle Monty had NEVER learned the Sebald code. Not that he had momentarily forgotten (as some claim about R). The film proves that Monty NEVER learned. So Lemony found the answer: "This happened because the warning was through Code Sebald, and Uncle Monty NEVER learned that code, neither at the time Zombies in the Snow was recorded nor at the time of the events that the Baudelaires were at his house." The fact that the Mitchums watched a movie with zombies in winter only hints at the same conclusion: the movie already existed back when Lemony and Sebald were kids. I emphasize again that most of the actors in the film were children or teenagers playing adult roles. Even someone Sally thinks could be Omar (Olaf). Regardless of whether the young man in the photo is Olaf or not, she would not find it strange for a teenager, as shown in the photo, to be Olaf. That's because it's an old movie! There is another possibility I should have discussed. All of this could be part of Lemony's mistake. Lemony may have felt that the film somehow had useful evidence about what was going on with the Baudelaires. Perhaps there was simply no message for Uncle Monty at the time of the main events of ASOUE, although Lemony believes that message in Zombies in the Snow was relevant to Uncle Monty at the time of the main events narrated in ASOUE. But Lemony just didn't realize it was a message about some ancient event, no longer related to the Baudelaires. From Sally's letter to Lemony, it appears he was still researching a possible survivor of the Baudelaire mansion fire. But Lemony was wrong to think that message would have helped the Baudelaires in any way.
Even the movie sequence listed by Sally points in this direction along with the way she talks about the movies. Sally lists several films produced by her brother, with Zombies in the Snow being neither among the first nor among the last. Zombies in the Snow is just one of many films produced by Sebald. Sally believes Lemony's books can help people remember Gustav's work. Why would people need to be reminded of a movie that was released in theaters recently? That phrase doesn't make sense if you imagine that Zombies in the Snow was the last film made by Gustav (just before his presumed death). The way Sally describes Sebald's filmography indicates that they are all old movies that people don't even talk about anymore. Sally had to go through old records to find the backstage photos she sent Lemony.
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Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Aug 18, 2021 7:05:53 GMT -5
carmelita0cheryl Could you make a judgment about which opinion seems to you the most correct?
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Post by Hermes on Aug 18, 2021 7:41:35 GMT -5
What?
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Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Aug 18, 2021 20:20:03 GMT -5
I think it's fair to know her opinion... I've lost a little bit of my reference on what's a good theory or a bad theory... And I'm looking for a way to find myself.
When Dante was here it was easier… Any theory that made him stop arguing and start attacking me was a good theory.
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Post by Hermes on Aug 19, 2021 4:23:13 GMT -5
Well, 'judgement' sounded as if you were appealing to Carmelita for a decision, so that we woukd have to stop arguing once she had given it. (Actually I can imagine a scene where someone - Esme, perhaps - does that with the original Carmelita.)
I'd be quie happy to attack you if you think it would be helpful.
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Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Aug 19, 2021 5:26:23 GMT -5
Oh, that wouldn't be the same Hermes... Dante did it naturally and without realizing it... You attacking me for asking for it means nothing as far as the quality of the theory is concerned. I'm not a masochist.
In Portuguese we have a similar verb 'to judge' which can only mean expressing an opinion based on personal criteria.
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TheAsh
Formidable Foreman
Posts: 175
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Post by TheAsh on Aug 19, 2021 11:09:04 GMT -5
I believe that Zombies on the Snow was indeed an old movie, but since events in the ASOUEverse tend to repeat themselves, an old movie's message can be reused again and again and again, as it is always relevant.
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Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Aug 19, 2021 11:12:01 GMT -5
Yes... That might be a way of looking at it. Instead of being a coincidence, being the purposeful reuse of an old movie. But, I think there's more than enough evidence to draw the conclusion that it's an old movie, period. Why an old movie was being used at the time and why Lemony was interested in it is debatable.
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