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Post by B. on Feb 28, 2022 2:35:23 GMT -5
Discuss anything related to the Russia-Ukraine war. We are really living in unprecedented times, watching everything doesn't feel real.
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Post by the panopticountolaf on Feb 28, 2022 10:00:22 GMT -5
It's just absolutely heartbreaking. Seeing images of the Ukrainian people fleeing their homes (or bravely staying to protect their cities! prayers for the volunteer armies) is strange, kind of like looking at those photos of Soviet Union countries in the 80s except it's now. So far, things are looking very bad for the Russian armies — let's hope that the trend holds. Also... it is a little funny that people here in US have literally just started praising Putin. It was the next logical step for these nutjobs.
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Post by HAL 10,000 on Feb 28, 2022 12:43:10 GMT -5
Yeah, it's horrible. I swear if Putin keeps this salsa up he'll cause WW3.
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Post by Esmé's meme is meh on Feb 28, 2022 18:01:15 GMT -5
It sucks because all wars suck, of course, but I can't help but think about the double morale in all this situation. This is not a consequence of Putin's greed or something like that. The US and NATO have been playing this game and pushing this situation for a long time now, and now it happened they act all surprised.
As I said in the shoutbox, I find it funny how now the world is so moved about the war, but we never got the same reaction about Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan and so on and so on. When a white country is attacked the world trembles, but when a country is victim of the US/Europe's interests, then it's not that bad.
Again, all wars are awful and sad, Putin's actions are inexcusable, but still, there's a lot more here than that, a lot of blame to share.
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Post by Poe's Coats Host Toast on Feb 28, 2022 20:09:43 GMT -5
I don't know where you're coming from, Zort - a lot of blame to share? That needs elaboration.
Also wtf.. Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan were huge frickin' deals. I guess one difference is that the former was bully USA stomping into countries and nobody did anything, whereas now there's a very powerful aggressor about to start a war with other very powerful countries... It's the potential of how much an already tragic situation for Ukrainians can escalate that's frightening.
Idk who was praising Putin before this, but it must've been tankies. That former KGB agent has always been a sh+t and kept himself in office through fear and intimidation. Russia's so-called elections are nothing but a farce, and I'm quoting a Russian emigrée.
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Post by Esmé's meme is meh on Mar 1, 2022 11:35:35 GMT -5
It's hard to find the words to articulate a coherent position in complex topics like these in English but I'll try my best haha
What I'm trying to say is that those invasions didn't receive the same treatment on media or from people in general, mainly because the dominant position didn't want it to be seen that way. That's why the US fabricated all kind of bullsalsa to justify those attacks and got away with it. I understand why people is scared and worried about the possibility of a nuclear war, but still, the media treatment of this war and the popular reaction it is getting is something I find interesting.
For me, it's clear just seeing the way immigration is treated right now as opposed with any other situation. For the last ten years we've been watching North African/Middle Eastern refugees being killed by xenophobic anti-refugee policies, children washing up dead on beaches, refugees being gassed and beaten by European border police and whole families drowning, being told again and again that there is "no room". Now we see what we always knew, there is room and Europeans are removing all red tape to let thousands of Ukrainians in (which is great), but why the hell did we have to watch so many other refugees die?
Today I keep seeing media coverage saying stuff like "This is not a developing, third world nation, this is not Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan, this is Europe"; "seeing blonde and blue-eyed kids running breaks my heart", "it's a relatively civilized, relatively European city, this shouldn't be happening", "why all ukranian soldiers have a Nazi symbol on their arm?"
A lot of people found out that the Western believes to have an authority over the world and their words. They have "liberty", "civilization", "democracy", while the rest of us have barbarism, autocracy, servility. So if Merkel is on charge of her country for 16 years, she's a champion of democracy, but if any other leader is chosen that makes them an "autocrat". USA has "entrepreneurs" like Jeff Bezos, but the rest of the world has "oligarchs". They have a right to peace and the rest of the world has to agree with them or get used to war. The neocolonialist regime of the Western has to stop now, and this war is the clearer proof of that.
The world's biggest imperialists, genociders and colonialists got all together and created NATO saying "we're the good guys" and used their power and media control to make everyone just believe them. For NATO, it's okay that the UK is occupying Argentinian territory since 1883 and then again 1982, make that make sense.
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Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Mar 1, 2022 12:13:02 GMT -5
Dear Latin American resident like me... They won't understand. And your English is great.
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Post by the panopticountolaf on Mar 1, 2022 12:19:11 GMT -5
Dear Latin American resident like me... They won't understand. And your English is great. You know we are all right here, yes? I'll freely admit that I'm not very well-read on worldwide foreign policy but I understand exactly what Zort is trying to say. (His English really is great.) Esmé's meme is meh, I'm particularly interested by what you say about news outlets. Where are you seeing this? Not saying that it's not being said but I haven't seen really anything like that here in the US.
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Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Mar 1, 2022 13:03:28 GMT -5
I think one of the things that Zortegus is highlighting is that there is a tendency for human lives and history European, US and Canadian, to be seen as being of greater value than other human lives and history.
In my case, I don't think this is on purpose or capable of being really understood. It's like suffering racism or religious persecution, you know? Knowing that racism exists and being against racism is something different from suffering racism. Being a victim of religious persecution is different from just being against religious persecution. It is something that people who have never suffered cannot fully understand. I know I can't fully understand what it's like to be an Arab refugee in Europe.
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Post by Esmé's meme is meh on Mar 1, 2022 13:10:02 GMT -5
Dear Latin American resident like me... They won't understand. And your English is great. You know we are all right here, yes? I'll freely admit that I'm not very well-read on worldwide foreign policy but I understand exactly what Zort is trying to say. (His English really is great.) Esmé's meme is meh , I'm particularly interested by what you say about news outlets. Where are you seeing this? Not saying that it's not being said but I haven't seen really anything like that here in the US.
Sadly this is just a new chapter of a long long story. The anti-Russian propaganda has never stopped and now they're making even more evident, reviving the ghost of communism, Russian imperialism (?!) and the USSR. Ukraine has been the pawn in the new US/NATO Cold War on Russia but now that it turned into a hot war, the “West” have been shown as paper tigers. Remember the jumbo jets full of weapons president Biden sent to Ukraine just weeks ago. US pushes and fuels war and then cries innocence.
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Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Mar 1, 2022 13:28:30 GMT -5
I think that no matter what, innocent people are suffering and dying. While world powers act as expected for world powers (whatever they claim) people with almost no power and who don't even understand all these issues are victims of wars. This is very unfair and very painful. I wonder how a natural disaster is also very painful, but at the same time it is not the result of a desire to destroy someone. But how different is this from seeing bombs going off in your city and gunfire being fired in the streets. Knowing that someone killed your neighbor on purpose, someone who didn't even know him or his story when he didn't do anyone any harm... This is really unfair and I don't think anything justifies it.
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Post by Poe's Coats Host Toast on Mar 1, 2022 20:18:51 GMT -5
Today I keep seeing media coverage saying stuff like "This is not a developing, third world nation, this is not Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan, this is Europe"; "seeing blonde and blue-eyed kids running breaks my heart", "it's a relatively civilized, relatively European city, this shouldn't be happening", "why all ukranian soldiers have a Nazi symbol on their arm?" I didn't see any of that, but then again, I don't look up media outlets like Fox News (or equivalents from other countries). Obviously that's a disgusting mindset. But just because some racists offer their racist rhetoric for something, that shouldn't validate the unjust terror of an armed invasion. I understand that the news coverage of the situation may be disproportionate to other long-term tragedies like the handling of the refugee crisis. I can sympathize with that and condemn that sort of media behavior as well. (Though it's not like those topics were ignored altogether... The haunting photo of a drowned Syrian boy was chosen the World Press Photo of the Year 2016.) A lot of people found out that the Western believes to have an authority over the world and their words. They have "liberty", "civilization", "democracy", while the rest of us have barbarism, autocracy, servility. Yeah, that's the spirit of 'Manifest Destiny' (in America, but applicable to European colonialism as well) unfortunately living on. Bob Dylan decried that kind of mindset back in 1964 as well ("With God on Our Side"). So if Merkel is on charge of her country for 16 years, she's a champion of democracy, but if any other leader is chosen that makes them an "autocrat". Not comparable in the least. Germany has a different (and highly democratic) kind of government with its Bundestag anyway. Merkel never had the executive power that Putin officially has. Russia has never transitioned far from being an authoritarian country. Putin successfuly suppresses opposing parties: obstructing their rallies and debates, excluding them from the media, barring popular figures from campaigning, some being jailed or forced into exile. There's likely hardly any need for actual ballot tampering, but for good measure, there is enough reports of that having happened as well. Their obviously rigged polls have actually been widely ignored by Western media, which, some argue, wouldn't be the case if such fraudulent elections were happening, say, in an African country. The world's biggest imperialists, genociders and colonialists got all together and created NATO saying "we're the good guys" and used their power and media control to make everyone just believe them. For NATO, it's okay that the UK is occupying Argentinian territory since 1883 and then again 1982, make that make sense. The misdeeds of the NATO is something I'm willing to learn more about, because I confess it's only something I'm very vaguely aware of. I can fully believe that they would try to spin the media narrative in their favor. But I don't think they are the bad guys in this situation. But I'm willing to listen.
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Post by Esmé's meme is meh on Mar 1, 2022 22:02:47 GMT -5
This is not about personal positions tho, I'm not judging anyone here or in general, not judging individuals, but I'm analyzing the general reaction to what's happening. As I exemplified with the refugees, the same happens with the media coverage and the response of Western societies to what's going on, both in "real life" and on social media. You said it yourself, the haunting photo of a drowned Syrian boy is the reflection of how Europe has been dealing with immigration for the last decades. We're not getting that kind of pictures because the European countries are actually receiving Ukrainian refugees with open arms, except those that aren't white. Because surprise! Right now we're seeing explicit racism in the way the Ukrainian refugees are being dealt.
I think this war is being pushed into a good guys vs. bad guys like usual, as in Ukraine = good and Russia = bad, ignoring all external factors, ignoring as I said before that this is the result of decades of operations and a lot of chess moves. I'll say it once again, what Russia is doing is awful, there's no excuse for war, but we're supposed to believe that Russia is just a communist country with imperialist desires (which is not, but we can debate if it's an expansionist country) when the main worry from Russia in the last 30 years or so has been keeping State stability and national safety.
It's clearly not a revolutionary state but their priority is one of national sovereignty and stability, not expansion. Can they be blamed after being object of State collapse decades ago and a whole century of war attacks from the western? The defense of regional stability in the last decade or decade and a half caused a constant crossroad with the US, which made and eastern expansion causing an extreme instability.
Since the US war with Iraq something is clear: the US destabilizes the world and Russia clearly saw that its stability depended on finding allies in the US enemies to prevent their expansion. The recognition of the separatist states in Ukraine from Russia may not come from high ideals of self defense of self determination but from a deliberated intent of undermine NATO and the neo nazi occupation in Ukraine's borders, some sort of protected area dividing Russia from Ukraine. Western imperialism is looking to pulverize Russia into puppet states that can grease the gears of resource extraction and eliminating yet another barrier on their search of isolating China.
Tldr: Russia is a capitalist state rich in resources and whose main problem is to keep their own sovereignty and stability, with no intention of expanding or subordinating the Eastern, getting themselves in a really salsaty situation against US imperialism.
Also I have no hesitation when I say NATO is a potato ing fascist faction playing good guys right now, just like they were when they gave the exact location of an Argentinian ship to the UK while we were fighting for the sovereignty of our land in 1986, killing 323 people. NATO also informed the UK about the takeoff of Argentinian planes, killing 55 pilots doing so. But maybe I'm biased of course.
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Post by Poe's Coats Host Toast on Mar 3, 2022 5:20:02 GMT -5
We're not getting that kind of pictures because the European countries are actually receiving Ukrainian refugees with open arms, except those that aren't white. Because surprise! Right now we're seeing explicit racism in the way the Ukrainian refugees are being dealt. The double standard is definitely worth pointing out; I haven't heard of the racist selectiveness in accepting Ukrainian refugees so far. But this is an issue into itself, separate from the invasion. If you mean to say that Ukrainian refugees should not be accepted because it's unfair to the refugees from other countries being accepted less, I consider that to be flawed logic. It's clearly not a revolutionary state but their priority is one of national sovereignty and stability, not expansion. Can they be blamed after being object of State collapse decades ago and a whole century of war attacks from the western? The defense of regional stability in the last decade or decade and a half caused a constant crossroad with the US, which made and eastern expansion causing an extreme instability. A century of attacks from the West? The Soviet Union had certainly no issues collaborating with the Nazis when they both invaded Poland in 1939. Only to be followed (after WWII) by a Soviet occupation of Poland until 1989. The collapse of the Soviet Union that ended it is something to be celebrated. Now Putin's delirious ego somehow convinced himself that Ukraine was never a sovereign state and that it had always rightfully belonged to Russia. I mean, imagine if the UK suddenly decided their erstwhile Indian colonies actually still belong to the British Empire, as a reason to invade them. Since the US war with Iraq something is clear: the US destabilizes the world and Russia clearly saw that its stability depended on finding allies in the US enemies to prevent their expansion. The recognition of the separatist states in Ukraine from Russia may not come from high ideals of self defense of self determination but from a deliberated intent of undermine NATO and the neo nazi occupation in Ukraine's borders, some sort of protected area dividing Russia from Ukraine. Western imperialism is looking to pulverize Russia into puppet states that can grease the gears of resource extraction and eliminating yet another barrier on their search of isolating China. Tldr: Russia is a capitalist state rich in resources and whose main problem is to keep their own sovereignty and stability, with no intention of expanding or subordinating the Eastern, getting themselves in a really salsaty situation against US imperialism. Sorry, but it just sounds like you're buying into Putin's deranged excuses of an us vs them rhetoric based on the vague notion of the evil West. Your mutual distrust of the USA is understandable, but actually saying Putin is invading Ukraine because he's concerned with Russia's safety is bonkers.
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Post by Esmé's meme is meh on Mar 7, 2022 7:52:04 GMT -5
I'll continue debating with Terry in a momentarily, but can we talk about how ridiculous this whole "let's cancel everything from Russia" thing is? They are cancelling Tchaikovsky now lol
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