The End: Official Discussion

[Gigi]

I guess I missed the part where Bertrand named the boat. But it still seems far-fetched that he built the boat, they escaped the island and then the boat sat around somewhere for many years until Olaf dragged it up to the roof of the hotel for Carmelita. Oh well.

swans said:

joshspazjosh said:

I hope the upcoming "Horseradishes" book clears some things up so the book can stand on its own. Some critics are accusing Handler of just making random stuff up, when obviously he didn't . . . it would be good to set the record straight.

What what what? I'm out of the loop someone explain these horseradish books to me.

Gigi, I totally didn't know that about the auction it is too bad we can't find out who won. I remember seeing Sunny say 667 and thinking it was out of place I guess I need to go back over that.

To clear things up for you, swans, there is a thread in Anguished Appendices about the Horseradish book, which apparently will be coming out in May, 2007.

As for the auction, I can't seem to find the threads about it from way back. Basically, there was a charity auction on ebay with a number of authors offering the winner's name in a future book. The Snicket auction was for Sunny to say a name in The End. A bunch of us here organized to pool our money to bid. We raised around $500, but ultimately the auction went for over $5000. But if Handler saw our efforts, he could be "throwing us a bone" by having Sunny say "667".

[joshspazjosh]

The thing is that Ish is [pardon the language] kind of a dick and doesn't care about whether his "children" die. Also, instead of getting angry when the Bauds find the tree, he has been expecting them. I think there's more to this allegory.

Also, in the Jewish tradition there's no such thing as original sin: we're just ourselves, and we can work to be a good or bad person. It's all up to us. In Judaism the Eden story is more of the idea that it's impossible for us to live in a utopia: we were just not designed that way. It would have broken down some time even if they hadn't eaten the apple.

[edgar]

dgrune said:

I guess I missed the part where Bertrand named the boat. But it still seems far-fetched that he built the boat, they escaped the island and then the boat sat around somewhere for many years until Olaf dragged it up to the roof of the hotel for Carmelita. Oh well.

Irony. The Baud parents built it, it waited for Olaf to drag it up years (?) after so Carmelita could play with it and then, soon after, its passengers include its own builders' children, without them knowing it. Irony. Or just the simple way of life.

[beatriceblake]

In Judaism the Eden story is more of the idea that it's impossible for us to live in a utopia: we were just not designed that way. It would have broken down some time even if they hadn't eaten the apple.

That definitely ties in with all lying the islanders do and the big fallout at the end. It also ties in with the V.F.D schism and the fact that no-one can remember the time when the world was quiet and safe.

Has anyone seen any reviews of The End in newspapers so far?

[ChilledCucumber]

After reading that, I hate to say it, but I don't think that Olaf is quite as bad as I suspected. I almost wish the Baud's would've let him out of that cage so he could have explained everything to them. And WOW, Kit and Olaf? Omgosh. I like that twist. I wonder if it's Beatrice is Olaf's baby? Any evidence? Also, why isn't Klaus named Lemony? Also in the shocking secrets, what does the Lemony is not who you think he is... one mean? Great book. My personal favorite.

[Gigi]

chilledcucumber said:

Also, why isn't Klaus named Lemony?

I've said this before, but I don't think Handler had the whole 13 book series outlined and detailed from the beginning. The whole VFD thing evolved as the series went along and I think the names is another effect of this. He chose the children's names at the beginning, not knowing that in The End, it would appear strange that Klaus wasn't named Lemony. I don't think anything else should be read into it. It's just something that happened as he wrote the books.

[psattler]

Being new to the board, I'm not sure if there's a thread that simply tracks all the references and allusions in the book, but this is surely the book that needs one. Indeed, as afar as I can recall, nearly each one of Sunny's lines ("Lethe," "Electra," "Dreyfus," "Trahison des clercs") deserves its own footnote.

In reference to some of the islanders' names, though, let me add/restate some of the connections between the book and other famous tales of shipwreck and revolt:

-- BLIGH, FLETCHER, BYAM, and PITCAIRN all come from the story of the Mutiny on the Bounty.
-- NORDOFF wrote the most famous book about the Bounty
-- ARIEL, CALIBAN, FERDINAND, GONZALO, ALONSO, and MIRANDA (and, earlier, STEPHANO) are all from Shakespeare's The Tempest.
-- MARLOW and KURTZ are from Conrad's Heart of Darkness.
-- CALYPSO is the nymph who holds Odysseus captive on her island for seven years in The Odyssey.
-- OMEROS is the Greek name for Homer, author of The Odyssey (see also Derek Walcott's poem of the same name).
-- FRIDAY and ROBINSON are from Robinson Crusoe – but also, by extension, Swiss Family Robinson.
-- LARSEN and WEYDEN allude to Jack London’s The Sea Wolf
-- JONAH is a gimme.
-- BELLAMY seems to refer to Sam Bellamy, the captain of the pirate ship Whydah, which wrecked in a storm off Cape Cod.
-- And SADIE? See, perhaps, Our Girl Friday, a 1953 British comedy about shipwrecked folks. Not too high-brow, I'll admit, but what the heck!?

WILLA has me stumped, though. Perhaps Willa Cather is the appropriate guess, since she once wrote:

When kindness has left people, even for a few moments, we become afraid of them as if their reason had left them. When it has left a place where we have always found it, it is like shipwreck; we drop from security into something malevolent and bottomless.

All in all, a great ending. The most aesthetically and intellectually satisfying cop-out I've read in a long time. Perfect.

[PJ]

dgrune said:

chilledcucumber said:

Also, why isn't Klaus named Lemony?

I've said this before, but I don't think Handler had the whole 13 book series outlined and detailed from the beginning. The whole VFD thing evolved as the series went along and I think the names is another effect of this. He chose the children's names at the beginning, not knowing that in The End, it would appear strange that Klaus wasn't named Lemony. I don't think anything else should be read into it. It's just something that happened as he wrote the books.

I think it's because, at the time on the Island, the parents thought Lemony was dead (remember his own funeral in UA). But when they left the Island, and returned to mainstream society, and had Violet, they discovered that he was still alive (perhaps at the infamous balldance where he's all "Olaf is-"), so it wouldn't have made sense to name Klaus Lemony.

Also, whomever said that it takes place in Canada - the Hinterlands where all dust and desert. Not forests. The series isn't supposed to take place anywhere. I think of it as an amalgamation of all the english speaking countries.

And I like the idea that the Bauds never told Beatrice everything, hence her mentioning the discrepancies in Lemony's books in TBL.

Also, Caliban = Widdershins? Eh. I just don't see it. It's like, there's hardly any concrete evidence, it's just something you're stringing together because of the manatee thing.

And Olaf can't be Beatrice's father. Their romance happened loooong ago.

[snicketfilepg13]

Rip Van Wrinkle is right. Whats the age diff. between Violet and Klaus? 2 years? That would give the Baudelaires parents 2 years to find out Lemony was actually alive.

Now that I have read the full thread, I'm thinking Olaf didn't burn down the Baudelaire Mansion after all. I thought it was Ishmael, for some reason, but it doesn't make sense =.=

[RockSunner]

chilledcucumber said:

I wonder if it's Beatrice is Olaf's baby? Any evidence?

I find Olaf''s "short, sharp laugh" after reciting "And don't have any kids yourself," a highly convincing clue. He seems to be laughing at himself for failing to follow this cynical advice.

It looks to me like Kit is Olaf's "one true love" and has been so for a long time. Esme was just a fling. Kit seems to love him too, in spite of the wickness he refuses to apologize for. She acceped Dewey, perhaps, only to give her child a more respectable father. I notice that Dewey is said to have left the woman he loved distraught and pregnant, not the woman who loved him.

[Eye Of The Count]

swans said:

rocksunner said:

I find Olaf''s "short, sharp laugh" after reciting "And don't have any kids yourself," a highly convincing clue. He seems to be laughing at himself for failing to follow this cynical advice.

That does make a lot of sense, I know everyone says the timeline is off but doesn't Lemony mention his sister running off with a Count? Lemony wasn't fooled by Olaf but he appeared to fool others it looks like Kit found out too late, and found out about the time the Baudelaire mansion was burned down. The timeline would fit then.


Oh, how awful for Lemony-- lol. His living relative named after the love of his life who also happens to be the daughter of the man he so detests, and happens to be the reason of his sister's death. (If Kit wasn't pregnant she could have eaten an apple). Oooh.

Another note, I think it's rather ratty the Baudelaires don't tell Beatrice everything. So what if they did some not so great things? They can be explained as Lemony explained them to us. If I was a Baudelaire I'd be telling Beatrice absolutely everything because I would remember when people were refusing to tell me information.

Also, why does everyone think Beatrice became separated from the Baudelaires when they leave the island? It says something about Sunny being on the radio. If Sunny is on the radio couldn't Beatrice find Sunny on her own? I think the separation happened a little bit later in time for the Baudelaires to share some information with her, and introduce her to VFD (the training school).

when did it ever say Sunny was on the radio?
and when did beatrice[baby] get seperated?

[Eye Of The Count]

Oh yeah, but how did the Bauds and Beatrice get seperated? Did it ever say it in the book?

[joshspazjosh]

In what I was taught, at least, original sin doesn't exist. The apple was just a crappy mistake.

There's actually a mishnah that talks about God being like "Oh I guess I screwed up" and letting Adam and Eve back into the garden but they refuse because they've learned the value of hard work and purpose and don't want to return to a place where there is literally nothing but happiness.

My synagogue's Reform, mind you, more on the conservative side of things but still . . .

[Vacuum Pot]

eyeofthecount said:

Oh yeah, but how did the Bauds and Beatrice get seperated? Did it ever say it in the book?

No, but the Beatrice Letters hints that the Beatrice sank with Sunny, Klaus, and Violet on it (no clues for Beatrice the Younger, but she also could've been on it)... perhaps this is how they were seperated? I mean, I haven't heard of a third occurence of the Baudelaires sailing on the Beatrice...

[superorange]

My theory about TBL is that they make it to land, and are seperated when BB2 is about 8 or so. She wouldn't remember any of the things mentioned in TBL if she was only one.