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Post by B. on May 9, 2015 10:05:05 GMT -5
Didn't read this thread but the general rule I try to follow is that if you say something racially/culturally/ offensive or politically incorrect to any minority, apologise for being a douche, ask what you should say instead in future and move on.
(unrelated point) Also, as someone who is an ethnic minority/mixed herself, I have to say that people soooometimes tend to demonise white people. Like I get that white people are usually the ones being racist, but trying to shun all of them doesn't solve the problem of racism, it just creates a worse social divide. Education > demonisation.
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Post by Poe's Coats Host Toast on May 9, 2015 10:47:34 GMT -5
people shouldn't say whatever they want, and not because of political correctness (even tho it's a good thing) and not in a censorship way, but just because of tact. you have the right to be a dick to people, but don't be a dick to people. As I mentioned before, I think it is tact that Handler utterly lacked at that Book Awards show. Nevertheless, laughing about racial clichés is not considered "being a dick" with some people, and is actually a good way to bond (as is any other kind of "dirty" joke). If somebody doesn't like those jokes, fine, I agree, don't be a dick and don't do them. The "benefit of the doubt" that Sam mentions is obviously the safest way, but forbidding to break the ice usually just forces a relationship to stay superficial. That's why I said, this type of humour is best reserved for private conversation, because then you can just clarify your intent and apologize if you miscalculated the other person and they got offended. i just thought that was dumb. the video doesnt back handler up bc i dont care who the ickle that dude is and he doesnt matter here. i think that if someone is saying theyre offended you listen and that often doesnt happen. we have to have a whole discussion about whether something is really actually offensive and then if the person had a right to be offended by it like theres some way we can even measure that. As Bandit already said, no one is trying to defend Handler, and if you'd have read what I wrote right under the video in the OP, you'd see that the video is not to back Handler up, but to analyze the public's reaction to the incident (calling Handler a racist) and how it presents a part of our PC culture today. (This seems to have been understood by others in this thread so far.) What Handler said was offensive because Woodson did get offended, but that doesn't mean he is a closet racist or whatever. And you don't have to care about who a dude is, you can just listen to the ideas he presents. Saying he doesn't matter's just a stupid thing to say. So if you want to say "Merry Christmas" to me, go ahead. However, there are millions of people who celebrate Hanukkah, Kwanzaa or various other religious festivals around December. "Happy Holidays" encompasses them and, IMO, has less of an assuming "I'm-a-Christian-so-everyone-else-must-be-too" tone. It's not oppressing your free speech. It's just a small effort to acknowledge those with other religious opinions. That, to me, seems to be the very argument given by the employers/some people wanting others to stop proclaiming what they believe in (which imo is oppressive). This idea, that just by showing you belong to one religion means that you assume everyone else must belong to it, is just your interpretation and is not true for most people. I say just let it show what religion you practice, and it might even be an invitation for a short or longer dialogue, since you can just say that you celebrate a different holiday, so you can also wish each other Happy Kwanzaa/or Hannukah/etc. Like you say you are fine with being said "Merry Christmas" to (or I'd also be fine being told "Happy Hannukah" f.ex.), I think pretty much everyone/most people are fine with it, making that whole political correcting of it not just oppressive but pointless.
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Post by penne on May 9, 2015 13:05:06 GMT -5
I guess what I really don't understand is why you think using racial/gender/social/whatever stereotypes is so central to bonding or "breaking the ice"? I mean, there are other ways.
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Post by BSam on May 9, 2015 15:05:52 GMT -5
As I mentioned before, I think it is tact that Handler utterly lacked at that Book Awards show. Nevertheless, laughing about racial clichés is not considered "being a dick" with some people, and is actually a good way to bond (as is any other kind of "dirty" joke). If somebody doesn't like those jokes, fine, I agree, don't be a dick and don't do them. The "benefit of the doubt" that Sam mentions is obviously the safest way, but forbidding to break the ice usually just forces a relationship to stay superficial. That's why I said, this type of humour is best reserved for private conversation, because then you can just clarify your intent and apologize if you miscalculated the other person and they got offended. well, if you must then you should really pick your audience well, and hope that you're not overheard by someone who could get offended by your casual racism. and i'm not sure it's entirely a bad thing to have a friendship which you consider superficial because you're having to pretend to not be racist. relevant. www.theage.com.au/victoria/three-police-officers-sacked-others-disciplined-over-racist-sunshine-stubby-holders-20140305-346mq.html
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Post by Poe's Coats Host Toast on May 9, 2015 15:36:32 GMT -5
I don't think you realize that racism is an actual belief in certain theories about racial superiority etc. I guess you would also call Edward Norton a racist for playing a Neo-Nazi in American History X for the sake of dramatic entertainment (as opposed to comedic entertainment)? My good friends know that when I say "I'm going to kill you" I am not really going to kill them; casual acquaintances on the other hand might get offended and remark that it'd be better if I pretended not to be homicidal.
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Post by bandit on May 9, 2015 15:44:09 GMT -5
I guess what I really don't understand is why you think using racial/gender/social/whatever stereotypes is so central to bonding or "breaking the ice"? I mean, there are other ways. It's not central to bonding, it's just how some people work. Criticizing the overbearing message that political correctness can send does not mean you want this manner of communication to be forced on everyone, it means you don't want it to be frowned upon, because diminishing racism through humor is not racist.
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Post by penne on May 9, 2015 16:08:09 GMT -5
The "benefit of the doubt" that Sam mentions is obviously the safest way, but forbidding to break the ice usually just forces a relationship to stay superficial. am i really confusing what's being expressed here? (edit: to clarify, i don't think terry is suggesting this needs to be forced on everyone, i'm saying he makes a pretty clear connection between not using stereotypes and being forbidden to "break the ice") casual racism/race jokes don't help diminish racism in the sense that they don't take the power away from the racists, but they help trivialize and normalize racism, and by doing that, they actually make light of racial oppression and take the power from the ones fighting against it. sure, racial slurs and stereotypes can be reclaimed, but that is something that should always be initiated by the oppressed groups, and only used by them, if that's how they feel most comfortable.
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Post by bandit on May 9, 2015 16:32:21 GMT -5
"Casual racism/race jokes." Okay, of course casual racism is bad. Race jokes, on the other hand, can be told for two different reasons: to mock racism, or to mock a race. Whether you're joking about your own race or not (e.g. black people still get flack from other black people for saying nigga), the reason you should confine this type of humor to private conversations is not because you're "afraid of being called out on casual racism", it's because different people from the same background are offended by different things. There's no denying you should respect another person if they take offense, but that doesn't mean political correctness should be able to, in turn, disrespect your freedom to say these things with people who do understand the nuances of race jokes.
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Post by Hermes on May 9, 2015 17:10:50 GMT -5
I thought Zizek's point was that we should listen to what the [member of marginalised group] says. He mentions a black person actually inviting someone to call him n****r; now I'd guess that doesn't happen very often, but if it does happen, I'd agree it's OK to call him that, and if a 'Politically Correct' person objects (which isn't impossible), they are wrong. But that's an extremely special case, and isn't a license to use racially insensitive language in general and of one's own accord. Racially based humour may sometimes be appropriate, and a way of breaking down barriers, but it's for the less privileged person to decide when.
I think it's true that sometimes things are done in the name of cultural sensitivity which aren't actually sensitive. A lot of Native Americans prefer 'Indian'; some British Romani prefer 'Gypsy' (and dislike 'Roma', which makes them sound foreign, and feeds into panic about foreigners). If you are taught (as some people were) that 'African-American' is the only acceptable term for black people, that will lead you to speak in ways that are very annoying to black people who are not American (e.g. Trevor Macdonald). But the answer to that is simply to learn what people actually prefer. (I think that in any case people are now less rigid about these things than they were in the 90's.)
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Post by Charles Vane on May 9, 2015 17:53:35 GMT -5
And you don't have to care about who a dude is, you can just listen to the ideas he presents. Saying he doesn't matter's just a stupid thing to say. free speech, i do what i want.
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Post by Poe's Coats Host Toast on May 9, 2015 18:30:24 GMT -5
yeah, me 2
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Post by Charles Vane on May 9, 2015 23:18:40 GMT -5
wow, amazing thats something we could both do without needing racial epithets.
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Post by Poe's Coats Host Toast on May 10, 2015 0:18:42 GMT -5
And we still don't like each other.
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Post by Charlie on May 10, 2015 4:38:33 GMT -5
We're all very intelligent here. I don't think anything that's been said so far has been stupid. Just irrational or conflicting with my gut-feelings. But then hey, opinions are opinions *free speech hug*
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Post by Isadora Is a Door on May 10, 2015 9:38:30 GMT -5
so i watched the video (mostly out of bordem)
i don't agree with what the guy in the video says, and he also uses some pretty shoddy examples. If someone told i have to go and visit my grandmother becuase she like when i do that, but that i wont be forced to do that, that would have no effect on whether i decided to go or not. Also this guy is generally annoying, but whatever, i still watch the video.
But overall, i think there is nothing wrong with that guy is saying, but that there is also nothing wrong with political correctness. But at the same time i'm not the most politically correct person ever, but then i'm not very good at understanding other people. 'happy holidays' instead of 'merry christmas'... I would never say happy holidays instead of merry christmas to someone, unless that person told me they don't want me to, because i celebrate christmas and would want other people to do that to. Just like i would like a jewish person to say 'happy hanukkah' to me or whatever. is that bad?
I kind of don't know why/how anyone would make jokes about someones race/culture though. I mean i don't think its something that can actually be funny.
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