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Post by Reba on Feb 6, 2017 13:12:34 GMT -5
i think it does apply to me, as all laws apply to all citizens.
but i agree that the western world as a whole is privileged for always debating abortion abstractly, when there are dozens of countries that still actively suppress women's rights with anti-abortion laws.
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Post by Charles Vane on Feb 6, 2017 13:49:52 GMT -5
i don't think you can just define a person how you want without looking at scientific evidence, which is what a lot of people do with religious objections to abortion. and thats just one of the problems with an abortion ~debate~ because there isn't a lot of logic and theres little willingness to understand the other side or compromise.
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Post by Charles Vane on Feb 6, 2017 14:01:39 GMT -5
i think it does apply to me, as all laws apply to all citizens. i mean, guys can certainly have an opinion and discuss it, but when it comes to practical purpose, men shouldn't be the ones with the majority of the decision making power. the laws on abortion don't actually affect -all citizens- in remotely the same way they affect -citizens with uteruses-. when trump changed america's abortion policies and did it surrounded by men (all if not most of whom were white, i believe) that to me shows how little women matter in pro-life issues. it's not hard to find women who are pro-life, why did they not invite a single woman to be part of that moment? it's not about the sanctity of life, it's about controlling women's bodies and sexuality.
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Post by Reba on Feb 6, 2017 14:34:00 GMT -5
of course, i wasn't trying to justify male-dominated lawmaking.
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Post by Grace on Feb 6, 2017 19:56:08 GMT -5
Disturbing Discussion is fun and all, but I'm going to put forth a couple of theories that I know are going to piss off cis men on this thread 🙄 Could the reason that you're against abortion (that is, women deciding whether they are able/want to bring the fetus in their body into the world as a human being with autonomy and then raise the baby) be because you see yourself as the potential aborted fetus in this scenario? You're certainly not the woman, and a lot of us were accidents / potentially could have been aborted. That's pretty much the human condition. Tons of pregnancies are accidental. In that case, remove yourself from the argument and realize that unwanted babies and the things they unknowingly bring (inept foster care systems, tons of social problems from neglected children to substance abuse) are a direct result of babies being forced into the world. Not even going to go into the inherent racism of the abortion fight; historically women of color were the ones unknowingly and coercively sterilized and prevented from having children, while white women were forced by the government to bring their pregnancies to term. Could the reason that you're against abortion be that you feel you potentially have the right, as a potential father of a child one day, to have a say in the birth of that child? Sorry dude, you just don't. You have to experience years of periods, cramps, birth control, and pregnancy scares before you can claim to be the primary caregiver to this ~potential child~, which is really the best thing you can say about fetuses. If you need further reference, this is from the potato ing 90s and it's still unfortunately relevant today: m.youtube.com/watch?v=AvF1Q3UidWM
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Post by Charles Vane on Feb 7, 2017 0:34:04 GMT -5
...I've been trying to stay pretty impartial, for the reasons Linda stated. All my previous posts have been showing the reasons or lack of them for each side of the debate. your basic position seems to be "agree to disagree", but some of us want to debate and discuss. a fetus is not a human being in the same way a woman is. yes this is arguably only from my perspective but as i don't see a fetus as a citizen, this issue is most relevant to those who can get pregnant. yes, a lot of pro-life people think abortion is murder, "snuffing out" a vulnerable life. i know it could be hard to fathom that abortion is compassionate, but it sure as hell can be. if adoption isn't an option for whatever reason, one should have the right to terminate a pregnancy before there is a baby, and this is not just for one's own sake. it is a brave, selfless thing to admit that you cannot provide a good or even adequate home for a child, to prevent that child from knowing a life of pain and suffering. its cruel to create a life in some circumstances and it would be less cruel to take preventative measures. im not sure how well i can articulate this point because i don't want to get specific but i feel this so strongly not because of abstract discussion or philosophy but from my own experiences. see thinking a fetus and an 8 month old baby aren't different isn't ~just your opinion~, it's factually inaccurate. why do you think there isn't a difference though? why would you say a fetus and an actual person are both people? i think this can be used to hide behind. "oh we just have a fundamental disagreement because i have beliefs instead of facts" to pretend that is just an issue of when a person becomes a person means that you can make a lot of things seem logical and just. oh no we'd never want to harm an innocent human! and focusing on that means you aren't focusing on the person with the uterus, which for me is the heart of the matter.
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Post by Charles Vane on Feb 7, 2017 0:37:09 GMT -5
okay if there is something growing inside a woman's body that isn't part of her body, then all doctors would have the same opinion: that it needs to get the hell out. foreign growths are pretty universally a bad thing.
(which is all to say, whether you think a fetus is a person or not, it is still a part of a woman's body while it is in a woman)
((and its just easier to say woman but i of course mean someone who has a uterus))
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Post by Charles Vane on Feb 7, 2017 0:48:21 GMT -5
As for unwanted babies - yes, being born creates problems and inconveniences yourself and others. That is life, and some people have it way, way harder than others, but I have never agreed with the idea that death, be it suicide or murder, is the way out. that is the kind of callous attitude that comes about from thinking about abortion as a moral evil without actually considering what happens once a baby is born. it confuses me to no end when people won't consider the reasons for their position. you are a product of your world, you believe things because of that world. how can you ever grow if you don't explore the motivations behind your decisions. how do you know you aren't a misogynist? that the beliefs you hold are accurate and of your own making? have you ever tested them?
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Post by Charles Vane on Feb 7, 2017 1:08:51 GMT -5
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Post by Charlie on Feb 7, 2017 1:48:31 GMT -5
An ovum is just a cell, spermatazoa are just cells. Eggs are destroyed by the body monthly (usually) and nobody cares, sperm are constantly broken down and recycled in the testes and nobody cares. Sperm meets egg, forms zygote, which at first is just a cell inside another cell, it is illogical to be concerned about the welfare of these two, now connected, valueless cells. At some point AFTER their union a soul or whatever enters the picture. Or life enters the picture, whatever. If you are unhappy with destroying life, the question is at which point these cells become "life". They were of course living material all along, but nobody has a problem with destroying ova or spermatazoa otherwise they would have a problem with the whole process of fertility which is constantly destroying them. So just as a zygote is living and a undifferentiated mass is living, so are skin cells sloughed daily etc. The real question then is "when is abortion murder (ie the taking of 'life' as quisby describes it)". A question to which both terry and bandit propose answers, but quisby has not. Fmpov, because we cannot determine the moment this "soul" enters a body, bandit's method is the most logical to use. If people were more concerned about foetal death than restricting people's rights, surely they would be spending their money on research into miscarriage prevention (speaking of which, if any of you become pregnant in future, please consider taking a blood test rather than amniocentesis as amniocentesis is now an outdated potentially dangerous technology). By the way, I'm offended by lee's statement that unless i have experienced having a uterus i can't consider myself primary caregiver to a child... on multiple levels . Also, if it was in this thread that zortegus was being mean to david, stfu he's a nice guy who starts interesting topics of conversation #teamdavid Also while I don't think I'm entitled to a say in abortion legislation, I would completely disagree that I have no say what a future pregnant lover does with her body, as disgraceful as that sounds. If we're a loving couple, then ofc we should discuss what would be best for us... obvi it's not fair for me to try to stop her aborting, but I don't think it's fair either to suggest that because pregnancy is a thing happening to her body it's not also a thing happening to our relationship
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Abortions
Feb 7, 2017 1:50:22 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by Charlie on Feb 7, 2017 1:50:22 GMT -5
You still give me the creeps. I hope you disappear soon again. Yeah it was, wtf is this... you give me the creeps tom and i wish you would disappear too? How does it feel huh? Not super good eh
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Post by Charles Vane on Feb 7, 2017 1:59:31 GMT -5
ilu, god it is so hard trying to talk science, thank you for doing it for me. my brain just can't do it so im over here just being like "science!" bc im so eloquent.
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Abortions
Feb 7, 2017 2:02:44 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by Charlie on Feb 7, 2017 2:02:44 GMT -5
ilu, god it is so hard trying to talk science, thank you for doing it for me. my brain just can't do it so im over here just being like "science!" bc im so eloquent. Ilu too gir, My pleasure!!!
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Post by Isadora Is a Door on Feb 7, 2017 2:11:22 GMT -5
Could the reason that you're against abortion (that is, women deciding whether they are able/want to bring the fetus in their body into the world as a human being with autonomy and then raise the baby) be because you see yourself as the potential aborted fetus in this scenario? You're certainly not the woman, and a lot of us were accidents / potentially could have been aborted. That's pretty much the human condition. Tons of pregnancies are accidental. In that case, remove yourself from the argument and realize that unwanted babies and the things they unknowingly bring (inept foster care systems, tons of social problems from neglected children to substance abuse) are a direct result of babies being forced into the world. What? I'm pretty sure everybody in the world is a potential aborted fetus.
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Post by Isadora Is a Door on Feb 7, 2017 2:15:46 GMT -5
see thinking a fetus and an 8 month old baby aren't different isn't ~just your opinion~, it's factually inaccurate. That's not a point of argument I can completely agree with. an 8 month baby and 80 year old are also different.
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