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Post by lemonmeringue on Apr 2, 2018 5:25:23 GMT -5
I’ve said before what I love about the new season - plus some general thoughts - before, and now we’ll get to the things I didn’t like. It was a mixed bag, and the good very much weighed out the bad. But, here we go.
First of all, I felt there was a general lack of the feeling I got from the first season. I can’t really explain what itis - perhaps, at times, it felt more generic and less “Snicketian” or rushed and unbalanced, compared to the first season. That’s just a sort of underlying streak throughout all episodes, that bothered me, even though I found all of them very good. There were very much moments that felt absolutely right, and the way it should, partly even better than the first season, but not consistantly. In fact, I suppose while the first season was very much balanced in its quality and atmosphere, the second has a higher contrast of even better and worse scenes. I also feel that there was hardly time for some “small” scenes - you know, of the softer, almost hapier (but not for long!) sort - unlike they somehow managed in the first season. But that is also largely because these books are simply darker than the earlier ones, so it fits.
I very much missed the children’s mixed bag of life in the penthouse. Their daily life and getting lost there, their moments with Jerome - sliding down the banister, going to all sorts of places in the city, etc. - because I actually hoped, not that they included alls orts of hints at later things, that maybe Jerome could have told them something about their parents (without knowledge of V.F.D.) or anything other interesting. Also, due to them never really developing a relationship to Jerome, of course made their goodbye much less sad.
Instead, I think there was a tad too much Esmé. I mean, she’s great (not exactly in a good way, but you know what I mean) and I really think Lucy Punch is a very suited actress for her, but I feel like some scenes were simply not necessary, and we could have had something from the books instead.
Another thing is the lack of Lemony, but as I have said before, the outstanding quality of his scenes made up for that. Very much.
Mr. Poe in TVV was just dreadful, and awfully out of character. Seriously - he is an idiot, and very obvlivious, but Mr. Poe (who doesn’t even belong there!) would have never ever approved of anything like ths. That’s just wrong.
I wish they had said that it was Klaus’s 13th birthday, and I suppose they didn’t because Louis Hynes is simply too old, but I still would have liked it that way.
And in TCC, as said before, I was sad that they didn’t have the scene with Sunny, where her siblings explained to her that their parents were most likely not alive. It’s a heartbreaking scene for me, and I wish they had kept it. (Or maybe, I don’t.)
And again in TCC, the one thing that really bothered me in this season, where everything else is just a minor complaint. Correct me if I am wrong, but I am pretty sure, even though it was hinted at, the children did not explecitly plan to kill Olaf in the lion’s pit. From what I remember from the book, they asked him to push them in, to simply get some time and distraction, and then the whole chaos happened, but here they actually stated that they planned to kill him. And that simply feels wrong, when one book later, they wouldn’t even capture Esmé in exchange for Sunny, because they wouldn’t want to be villains.
But this is it. As a whole I loved this season. I think it was very, very good in every way. I’d say, I liked one half of it exactly as much as season 1, one quarter more thans eason 1, and one quarter less than season 1.
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gamegenie
Reptile Researcher
Reading the Daily Punctilio
Posts: 19
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Post by gamegenie on Apr 2, 2018 5:40:47 GMT -5
I don't see the lack of Lemony Snicket in this season as I seeing it mentioned here on this forum a lot. He appeared in every instance narrating and it was quite sad when he had to narrate through the murder of his brother Jerome.
I thought Esme parts fit well through the series as it did in the books, there was no over use of her unlike Poe and Eleanor who we are going to see a lot since they plan to have her double as Geraldine, which will mean Poe will probably be right behind. That is only thing where I don't think the Netflix writers thought through. At the course we are headed Poe's kids are going to be orphans next as Poe and Geraldine were both blindly walking the halls of the Hotel Denouement when it was on the fire, so with Poe's wife Eleanor doubling as Geraldine this could mean they both may perish?
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Post by Invisible on Apr 2, 2018 6:09:28 GMT -5
The newspaper boy gag is quite tiresome.
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Post by Violent BUN Fortuna on Apr 2, 2018 7:08:34 GMT -5
I loved this season! I love that it stays so true to the spirit of the books, yet add enough to keep it suspenseful, even for those who know the plot from the books. Some of this has been discussed here before in the various threads, but I'm just going to write it anyway because I want to.
My thoughts precisely! That's interesting, because I didn't really get that impression from it -- that is, obviously it was sort of meant to be funny but it didn't cross my mind that it was because Klaus is the only boy. I'll have to consider that when I watch it again. Me too -- honestly, kind of ridiculous jokes like that really amused me. Same for Mattathias Medical School, although for slightly different reasons. This is exactly how I feel. I'm not bothered by her redundancy to the plot just because she's more of a representative of the workings of V.F.D. than anything else. Other characters can have more personality: she essentially just fulfills a role. I hadn't really thought about the fact that Isadora was disguised as Violet when Klaus said that. I definitely didn't pick up on it being a nod to social taboos; I kind of just thought he got flustered when she asked his opinion on her appearance. Another thing to consider when I watch it again! I've never thought about the Duncan/Quigley question like that before, but I'm glad you pointed it out. It was always so obvious that Violet was attached to Quigley that I never quite understood the question of who called out Violet's name, but if Duncan also held (in his case, unrequited) feelings for her then it suddenly becomes quite a meaningful question, although it is Sunny who asks it, which I always found vaguely amusing because Sunny must just have been quietly observing so much. YES. I think THH really allowed them to find the right balance between scary and humorous. It managed to be genuinely chilling, tense, creepy, AND really funny as well. I'm so glad they did this book justice. OHhhhhh thank you! I totally did not get that. I imagine that she's simply too pretentious to downgrade from four names.
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Post by Linda Rhaldeen on Apr 2, 2018 8:30:59 GMT -5
@leminmeringue they did mention his birthday though? Klaus mentioned it in much the same way as it was brought up in the books, and then Violet was singing Happy Birthday while using the battering ram, and then the Poes mentioned their lack of bar/bat mitzvahs, a nod specifically to him turning 13.
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Post by lemonmeringue on Apr 2, 2018 9:52:44 GMT -5
Yes, of course they mentioned it, just not his age. That was what I meant.
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Post by Liam R. Findlay on Apr 2, 2018 11:28:07 GMT -5
By the way, does anyone have a guess why the character sometimes switch around the words 'here' and 'which' in the phrase "a word which here means"? Lemony did it a few times in season one, and it bothered me then, so I was a little disappointed to see Mr. Poe doing it as one of the first things in season 2.
I thought about this too. With Lemony, I assumed it was because Warburton has lots of long, complex monologues to learn and recite, and they simply didn't have time to re-shoot (particularly if the mistake was only discovered when it was too late). I assume people not noticing at the right time / time constraints may be the same case with Poe. I don't mind it too much because it still makes sense and it's realistic that Lemony would sometimes mix words up. Regarding my views on the series, my main three observations are: - Jim Dooley's music brings it to a new level of quality. It compliments the scenes with the relevant intensity, emotion or recurring theme, and ties everything together seamlessly. I appreciate this because of how The Bad Beginning and The Wide Window's music seemed to fail in reaching its full potential, sometimes feeling uninformed or patronising, most probably because of the numerous composers and time constraints after the original composer left. Series 2 music that stands out in my memories are Carmlita's theme, the intensity in The Hostile Hospital, and the catchy and sometimes emotive themes in The Carnivorous Carnival. - The embellishments and extensions to the original story are all done well without spoiling it. I even consider some to improve on the story, such as the ways characters are given more depth/meaning/history (eg. Olivia, Jaques, Larry) and aren't just temporary appearances to help a mini narrative along. This isn't a criticism of the books because including all this detail in them would have been unnecessary and perhaps too much content for the book format. I also like how the film format it utilised by adapting secret files into film reels, which among other things is a great way to communicate ideas to old fans in a new, insightful way. - It wasn't until The Hostile Hospital when I felt like Olaf was a frightening person. Even though he'd murdered Monty and whatever else before, he'd still felt like a comedy villain until this point. If anything, The Hostile Hospital is important to the story because it says 'we joke a lot but these adults are violent, sadistic and really would kill these kids'. This episode helps support the desperation of both the Baudelaires and the villains in The Carnivorous Carnival and onward as everything falls apart.
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Post by Grace on Apr 2, 2018 13:29:40 GMT -5
You've just reminded me of an interesting point -- I cant remember which episode it was, but in the V.F.D. tunnels, there was a sign marked 'Julienne'. I assume it was just a little nod for book fans, but still, it was interesting ... And yeah, I need to check again because at the time I just didn't see if Kit(?) was pregnant or not. All but confirmed that she's Kit now. Also, Julienne is the only character mentioned on the walls (Cathedral of the Alleged Virgin notwithstanding) that hasn't appeared yet. Widdershins hasn't, of course, but he no doubt will, and was mentioned briefly by Fernald in the first TCC episode. I hadn't really thought about the fact that Isadora was disguised as Violet when Klaus said that. I definitely didn't pick up on it being a nod to social taboos; I kind of just thought he got flustered when she asked his opinion on her appearance. Another thing to consider when I watch it again! I've never thought about the Duncan/Quigley question like that before, but I'm glad you pointed it out. It was always so obvious that Violet was attached to Quigley that I never quite understood the question of who called out Violet's name, but if Duncan also held (in his case, unrequited) feelings for her then it suddenly becomes quite a meaningful question, although it is Sunny who asks it, which I always found vaguely amusing because Sunny must just have been quietly observing so much. Also also, if you look back at the books TAA-TVV, there is substantial evidence that Violet has a thing for Duncan in return. The show acknowledges it too, making Violet as awkward as Klaus when he's confronted with Isadora (or Fiona, in the books), or Duncan when he's confronted with Violet. It's also notable that in the several scenes where they are yelling for the Quagmires (e.g., in the elevator shaft), Violet only says Duncan's name and Klaus only says Isadora's name, every time. Not reaching to acknowledge the Violet/Duncan/Quigley love triangle.
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Post by destinychild on Apr 2, 2018 17:23:54 GMT -5
I'm going to assume that the reason Bruce will not be in the Netflix adaptation is because his role is going to be filled by Nero which would explain the slightly softened personality. Thoughts?
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Post by Violent BUN Fortuna on Apr 2, 2018 17:50:24 GMT -5
You've just reminded me of an interesting point -- I cant remember which episode it was, but in the V.F.D. tunnels, there was a sign marked 'Julienne'. I assume it was just a little nod for book fans, but still, it was interesting ... And yeah, I need to check again because at the time I just didn't see if Kit(?) was pregnant or not. All but confirmed that she's Kit now. Also, Julienne is the only character mentioned on the walls (Cathedral of the Alleged Virgin notwithstanding) that hasn't appeared yet. Widdershins hasn't, of course, but he no doubt will, and was mentioned briefly by Fernald in the first TCC episode. I hadn't really thought about the fact that Isadora was disguised as Violet when Klaus said that. I definitely didn't pick up on it being a nod to social taboos; I kind of just thought he got flustered when she asked his opinion on her appearance. Another thing to consider when I watch it again! I've never thought about the Duncan/Quigley question like that before, but I'm glad you pointed it out. It was always so obvious that Violet was attached to Quigley that I never quite understood the question of who called out Violet's name, but if Duncan also held (in his case, unrequited) feelings for her then it suddenly becomes quite a meaningful question, although it is Sunny who asks it, which I always found vaguely amusing because Sunny must just have been quietly observing so much. Also also, if you look back at the books TAA-TVV, there is substantial evidence that Violet has a thing for Duncan in return. The show acknowledges it too, making Violet as awkward as Klaus when he's confronted with Isadora (or Fiona, in the books), or Duncan when he's confronted with Violet. It's also notable that in the several scenes where they are yelling for the Quagmires (e.g., in the elevator shaft), Violet only says Duncan's name and Klaus only says Isadora's name, every time. Not reaching to acknowledge the Violet/Duncan/Quigley love triangle. Yep, I'm sure she's Kit now! Ooh, I missed the Cathedral of the Alleged Virgin sign!! I'll have to look out for it. Yes, I know some people saw the potential for a Violet/Duncan thing in the books (and I suppose Sunny did too, haha), and I can certainly see what they mean, but to me they just always seemed like close friends and nothing else -- especially in comparison to Violet's interactions with/thoughts about Quigley, which were obviously more affectionate/romantic. The scenes in the elevator shaft etc when Violet only says Duncan's name and Klaus only says Isadora's don't happen in the books so they were actually things I disliked in the show -- it felt like they were trying to force something which never really seemed to be there in the books.
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Post by Grace on Apr 3, 2018 4:23:14 GMT -5
Yes, I know some people saw the potential for a Violet/Duncan thing in the books (and I suppose Sunny did too, haha), and I can certainly see what they mean, but to me they just always seemed like close friends and nothing else -- especially in comparison to Violet's interactions with/thoughts about Quigley, which were obviously more affectionate/romantic. The scenes in the elevator shaft etc when Violet only says Duncan's name and Klaus only says Isadora's don't happen in the books so they were actually things I disliked in the show -- it felt like they were trying to force something which never really seemed to be there in the books. Not to argue about this ad infinitum, but I think this is totally subjective. Reading TAA for the first time (without knowing about TSS etc.), there are hints. Violet blushes when Nero calls Duncan her boyfriend, for example, which can be interpreted a number of ways. Obviously, in TSS that's thrown out the window, but it is telling/odd/important? that Quigley looks just like Duncan and she believes Duncan to be gone forever. I do agree that the show was a little over the top with stuff like DQ/VB, definitely hitting us over the head with it, and was further hindered by not devoting time to fleshing out those characters. And later books like TSS and TGG are more overt about potential ~relationships for the two of them. They're also a little older. But for me, the difference between Violet/Duncan interactions and Violet/Quigley interactions says more about the relative age/immaturity of both the characters and the series between TAA and TSS. Obviously the two relationships are portrayed differently, but I'm inclined to think the show was just representing what was hinted at in the text more overtly, as TV shows are wont to do. It is going to be weird to reconcile though for non-book readers when TSS comes around.
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Post by A comet crashing into Earth on Apr 3, 2018 9:54:25 GMT -5
That's interesting, because I didn't really get that impression from it -- that is, obviously it was sort of meant to be funny but it didn't cross my mind that it was because Klaus is the only boy. I'll have to consider that when I watch it again. I'm not 100% sure, it just seems to me like they would've had a harder time making a joke out of it if it'd been Violet screaming, just because we have the notion that screaming is girlish. I hadn't really thought about the fact that Isadora was disguised as Violet when Klaus said that. I definitely didn't pick up on it being a nod to social taboos; I kind of just thought he got flustered when she asked his opinion on her appearance. Another thing to consider when I watch it again! I've never thought about the Duncan/Quigley question like that before, but I'm glad you pointed it out. It was always so obvious that Violet was attached to Quigley that I never quite understood the question of who called out Violet's name, but if Duncan also held (in his case, unrequited) feelings for her then it suddenly becomes quite a meaningful question, although it is Sunny who asks it, which I always found vaguely amusing because Sunny must just have been quietly observing so much. Wow, really? I think it makes more sense that Violet asks it, but that's probably why I remembered it that way. To be honest, I also think the Klaus/Isadora thing is incidental, with the actual intention just being that he's flustered about complimenting her. But I can definitely still imagine Mr. Handler snickering in the background because of the possibly unintended implications. By the way, does anyone have a guess why the character sometimes switch around the words 'here' and 'which' in the phrase "a word which here means"? Lemony did it a few times in season one, and it bothered me then, so I was a little disappointed to see Mr. Poe doing it as one of the first things in season 2.
I thought about this too. With Lemony, I assumed it was because Warburton has lots of long, complex monologues to learn and recite, and they simply didn't have time to re-shoot (particularly if the mistake was only discovered when it was too late). I assume people not noticing at the right time / time constraints may be the same case with Poe. I don't mind it too much because it still makes sense and it's realistic that Lemony would sometimes mix words up. I just can't help thinking that this doesn't really explain it. If they made the same mistake several time during the first season, you'd think they'd be aware enough of it to at least avoid making it in the opening scene of the second season. Although I might be biased: Having learned English largely through reading ASOUE, I sometimes forget that "A word which here means" is more of a catchphrase than a common idiom, and might not be sharply etched into everyone's brains.
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Post by Liam R. Findlay on Apr 3, 2018 10:20:42 GMT -5
I thought they just made the mistake once in the first season and I didn't even notice it the first time I watched. It's probably an easy thing to miss when they're trying to get through so many shots a day in a busy studio with lots of things to do (and as you say, aren't fluent in Snicket like we are!).
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Post by Violent BUN Fortuna on Apr 3, 2018 10:53:33 GMT -5
Yes, I know some people saw the potential for a Violet/Duncan thing in the books (and I suppose Sunny did too, haha), and I can certainly see what they mean, but to me they just always seemed like close friends and nothing else -- especially in comparison to Violet's interactions with/thoughts about Quigley, which were obviously more affectionate/romantic. The scenes in the elevator shaft etc when Violet only says Duncan's name and Klaus only says Isadora's don't happen in the books so they were actually things I disliked in the show -- it felt like they were trying to force something which never really seemed to be there in the books. Not to argue about this ad infinitum, but I think this is totally subjective. Reading TAA for the first time (without knowing about TSS etc.), there are hints. Violet blushes when Nero calls Duncan her boyfriend, for example, which can be interpreted a number of ways. Obviously, in TSS that's thrown out the window, but it is telling/odd/important? that Quigley looks just like Duncan and she believes Duncan to be gone forever. I do agree that the show was a little over the top with stuff like DQ/VB, definitely hitting us over the head with it, and was further hindered by not devoting time to fleshing out those characters. And later books like TSS and TGG are more overt about potential ~relationships for the two of them. They're also a little older. But for me, the difference between Violet/Duncan interactions and Violet/Quigley interactions says more about the relative age/immaturity of both the characters and the series between TAA and TSS. Obviously the two relationships are portrayed differently, but I'm inclined to think the show was just representing what was hinted at in the text more overtly, as TV shows are wont to do. It is going to be weird to reconcile though for non-book readers when TSS comes around. I do actually agree with quite a lot of what you've said, but I would disagree that it's totally subjective. Violet does blush when Nero says that, but as you say, that can be interpreted a number of ways -- and she also says that he's not her boyfriend (although that doesn't, of course, mean that they couldn't have had feelings for each other). Anyway, she also blushes when Quigley compliments her -- and noticeably, she doesn't ever blush when Duncan compliments her. Additionally it is also noticeable that in TAA, whereas Duncan is quite affectionate towards Violet, often patting or holding her hands (which could certainly support the theory that he at least harboured feelings for her, whether or not she did for him), Violet never responds by initiating such contact with him. However, in TSS, she does act in a similarly affectionate manner to Quigley, patting and holding his hand, and placing her hand on his shoulder. And of course, when separated from Duncan and Isadora, there is never a suggestion that she is pining particularly for Duncan over Isadora, whereas when she is separated from Quigley, there are many references to how she in particular (that is, more so than her siblings) is thinking of him and is 'particularly fond' of him. There is just so much evidence for her affection for Quigley (and for his reciprocation of said affection), and so little to suggest that she felt anything more than friendship for Duncan (though I do think that his behaviour towards her could absolutely suggest he felt somewhat more strongly for her), that I don't think my viewpoint is totally subjective. I'm sure it is subjective up to a certain point, but it's also based on quantifiable information from the books. However, all that said, I do absolutely agree with you that the contrast between Violet's relationships with Duncan and with Quigley highlight the development of their characters -- well, of Violet's character in particular. That's part of why I dislike how they handled the Violet/Duncan thing in the show -- it just felt too heavy-handed and I don't know if the contrast between Violet's interactions with Duncan and with Quigley will survive in the show. You're right, though, that TV does tend to portray things in a more overt manner than books do. I would also like to add now, though, that as much as I disliked what they did with this whole pairing off Violet with Duncan and Klaus with Isadora thing, it wasn't a deal-breaker for me or anything -- it's not like it dominated the show, or even any of the episodes. I loved this season, and this was merely one relatively small aspect which I disliked.
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Post by Violent BUN Fortuna on Apr 3, 2018 11:00:43 GMT -5
A comet crashing into Earth You're quite right, they wouldn't have had such an easy joke with Violet screaming. As such, it's not their best moment of comedy! Ha, yes I can imagine that, too ... What a horrifically awkward situation for Klaus all around! Yeah, it's Sunny who asks! I checked just to make sure, but I always particularly remember that it's her because it always amused me that Sunny was so openly curious about the whole situation.
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