|
|
Post by Esmé's meme is meh on Dec 10, 2016 1:45:09 GMT -5
We already know the actors for the Poe children, they're both black.
EDIT: I just re-read these. I wonder if they're going to eliminate Mr. Poe's coughing completely, considering how is not even mentioned in any of his lines or in what we've seen in the trailers so far.
|
|
|
|
Post by Strangely on Dec 10, 2016 10:27:42 GMT -5
I just re-read these. I wonder if they're going to eliminate Mr. Poe's coughing completely, considering how is not even mentioned in any of his lines or in what we've seen in the trailers so far. It's definitely looking that way. Which if that turns out to be the case I can't say I'd really miss it. The coughing falls into the same category as Sir's smoke to me, great in a book but probably not in live action mediums. I feel like in a movie or show it would get annoying pretty quick, waiting on every line of dialogue because of a coughing fit. And any actor who had to do that for all those takes would probably leave the set every day with a sore throat. |
|
|
|
Post by Skelly Craig on Dec 10, 2016 10:32:28 GMT -5
Even if pale is relating to skin color it would be relative to skin color sense paleness is a biological phenomenon that occurs when the blood flow is decreased under the skin and subsequently removes some color it isn't an ethnicity or race and therefore is not unique to any one subset of humans. As a poc with a large ethnic family it's possible to have light skinned African children. I'm assuming many of the users on here are white, just probability based on statistics, and perhaps are just not aware of how diverse skin color is with brown people. Put simply, black people can be pale. I think that would be the case if it's explicitly implied by "grew pale" or if like a character comments "you look pale," suggesting the person is paler than usual. However, as it is in the script fragment, Edgar is described as inherently pale. If the writer wanted to describe his appearance relative to his sibling/parents, that could've been made clearer. This is an issue of semantics, so I don't think it matters, but fwiw I'm neither black nor white. |
|
|
|
Post by zinthaniel on Dec 10, 2016 11:32:30 GMT -5
Even if pale is relating to skin color it would be relative to skin color sense paleness is a biological phenomenon that occurs when the blood flow is decreased under the skin and subsequently removes some color it isn't an ethnicity or race and therefore is not unique to any one subset of humans. As a poc with a large ethnic family it's possible to have light skinned African children. I'm assuming many of the users on here are white, just probability based on statistics, and perhaps are just not aware of how diverse skin color is with brown people. Put simply, black people can be pale. I think that would be the case if it's explicitly implied by "grew pale" or if like a character comments "you look pale," suggesting the person is paler than usual. However, as it is in the script fragment, Edgar is described as inherently pale. If the writer wanted to describe his appearance relative to his sibling/parents, that could've been made clearer. This is an issue of semantics, so I don't think it matters, but fwiw I'm neither black nor white. Even if that is the case "Pale",inherent or a result of timidity, is not unique to any subset of humans, even if we remove all black people from possibly being described as such. That still leaves us with a wide arrange of races and ethnicity who could be described as pale. So really I don't see pale as a defining factor in anything other than one's skin being light. How light and relative to what can vary. |
|
|
|
Post by Skelly Craig on Dec 10, 2016 11:59:22 GMT -5
True, but now you're getting away from the main point: Mr. Poe is black, so it would seem odd if his children were of a different race; caucasian or other.
|
|
|
|
Post by zinthaniel on Dec 10, 2016 12:47:59 GMT -5
True, but now you're getting away from the main point: Mr. Poe is black, so it would seem odd if his children were of a different race; caucasian or other. Which brings me back to my point. I am african american. My father is considerably darker than me i am considerably lighter than him, my brother is my farhers complexion. So describing my dads sons I would be described as the pale one and this regardless of us borh being african american. This is because brown skin exists on a spectrum. It can be light, i.e paler, or dark. So the adjective pale does not distinguish anything beyond relative skin lightness. |
|
|
|
Post by Esmé's meme is meh on Dec 10, 2016 18:17:54 GMT -5
|
|
|
|
Post by bear on Dec 10, 2016 18:29:31 GMT -5
paleness is a stereotype associated with white poets specifically. a black guy would not be stereotyped as a gloomy poet because he is genetically paler than his brother. so i think it's pretty reasonable to assume that script fragment's description of Edgar implies a non-black person. not that it matters. i'm hesitant to believe any of these script fragments have actually made it into the final product.
|
|
|
|
Post by zinthaniel on Dec 10, 2016 18:38:01 GMT -5
paleness is a stereotype associated with white poets specifically. a black guy would not be stereotyped as a gloomy poet because he is genetically paler than his brother. so i think it's pretty reasonable to assume that script fragment's description of Edgar implies a non-black person. not that it matters. i'm hesitant to believe any of these script fragments have actually made it into the final product. Mm.. No, I've never heard of that stereotype - is there any sort of noted source giving that claim any historical context? Otherwise I personally wouldn't put much stock in it since it appears to be quite the stretch. I'd say that most prolific poets are probably white , but that is a matter representation not something intrinsic to the use of the world "pale". I think it's safe to say that paleness isn't unique to white people. Thank you for these - they illustrate the point perfectly. |
|
|
|
Post by bear on Dec 10, 2016 18:50:16 GMT -5
wtf? do you need historical context for the jock stereotype too. a kid who is big and loud might be assumed to be an athlete. a kid who is pale and gaunt might be assumed to write poetry. the paleness of a white person is largely predicated on the time they spend outdoors, i.e. a pale white person is probably reclusive. the paleness of a black person is mostly genetic, therefore does not fit the stereotype.
|
|
|
|
Post by zinthaniel on Dec 10, 2016 18:54:47 GMT -5
wtf? do you need historical context for the jock stereotype too. a kid who is big and loud might be assumed to be an athlete. a kid who is pale and gaunt might be assumed to write poetry. the paleness of a white person is largely predicated on the time they spend outdoors, i.e. a pale white person is probably reclusive. the paleness of a black person is mostly genetic, therefore does not fit the stereotype. Paleness has never been unique to white people so I don't see the connection and depending on a black person's complexion paleness can also result from a lack of sun that's a biological fact regardless of genetics. It's relative through and through. |
|
|
|
Post by Strangely on Dec 10, 2016 19:05:57 GMT -5
The other definition of pale is "feeble and unimpressive" and hey, that's a poet stereotype! So, instead of assuming that paleness has to be denoting race, can't we instead just assume it's in reference to his physical stature instead? I mean, clearly Edgar and Albert's appearances are supposed to reflect their interests rather than what race they should be.
|
|
|
|
Post by theplague on Dec 10, 2016 22:45:53 GMT -5
I think it's really neat that they are giving Edgar and Albert different personalities
|
|
|
|
Post by mizbizsav on Dec 11, 2016 0:00:15 GMT -5
Couldn't the script had been written before Mr. Poe was cast? Even if not, I don't see why one small description in the script matters. It's all fluid anyway. Things get changed. Especially little details like that which are insignificant to the plot and character.
|
|
|
|
Post by ironic impostor on Dec 11, 2016 0:20:05 GMT -5
I'm not about to jump into the "pale" discussion, as I fail to see what pertinence it has on whether or not this fragment of the script or characters made it into the finished product (though, to be clear, I do see the pertinence of discussing representation in media, I just think we've gotten away from what this conversation originally started as), but I do want to jump into the "we don't know what's changed and what's stayed" discussion.
I want to preface everything else I'm about to say by saying that I'm a film student, currently attending film school, and specifically studying screenwriting. I say this not to sound like a stereotypical film-school "I know everything" type of dude (because I don't know everything about film or television production and anyone who thinks that going to film school is all you need to do in order to learn every aspect is, frankly, an idiot, having met many of those types of people AT film school I say this from experience), but simply to demonstrate that I do have at least a little more inside knowledge than the average bear. Not a lot more, mind you, but a little.
Anyway, finally onto what I'm getting at. Generally, television scripts are pretty set in stone after they've been written. If they're at the point where the executive producer (in this case Handler himself) feels that even just small fragments can be distributed to random people through a book-club, the chances are that, like I said, everything in that script is pretty much locked into place. That obviously doesn't mean there can't be small changes in the finished product, it's just less likely than it is in a feature film.
I say this because usually, the way television shows are handled is that there will be a writer's room in which a bunch of writers sit in a small, cramped room with the Executive Producer (again, in this case it's Handler himself) and they will hash out the general storyline of the season. Then, after that is finished, episodes and stories will be handed off to individual writers. Then, typically when those individual scripts are near-finished, they'll be handed over to the staff writers. These writers will punch up certain elements but don't actually get credited as being a writer on the episode. Finally, the script will be handed to the executive producer who will either approve it, tell the original writer to go make changes, or, in extreme circumstances, may even make the changes him or herself. After that, as long as the network and various other people say it's okay to go to production, it'll, eventually, go to production.
Now, obviously, that's an EXTREMELY simplified version of how that whole process works as there are about ten million other steps and people who have to see a script before it gets the full greenlight to get made into an episode. The point of all this is that it would likely be very hard to send out script fragments to random people if the executive producer hadn't pretty much signed off on that version of the script. The script fragments we've been seeing have, quite likely, been ripped from the final draft, or at least NEAR final draft, of each script. Especially for a show as big and expensive as this one, the need to have it fit a certain brand and idea of what fans and executives expect is, I imagine, extremely high. Therefore, the idea of sending script fragments out to random people probably had to go through quite a bit of overhead and probably took quite a bit of convincing financiers that it wasn't a bad idea and that fans who received the fragments wouldn't feel completely lead astray by the final product.
To make a long story short, essentially what I'm saying is that it's quite likely that most of these fragments, if not necessarily all of them, will be in the show in some form or another. The sheer amount of money and oversight being put into the show means that executives don't want to see a chunk of their audience leave or be unsatisfied just because people who got fragments give bad word of mouth or say negative things once the show premieres and feel ripped off once they see that the fragment they received is not in there. I'm sure the briefness of the fragments and the fact that Snicket fans are used to being toyed with are factors they took into consideration, and probably at least small parts of why Netflix, Paramount, and whomever else is financing the show let Handler do it, but I still think they probably wanted to make sure the episodes the fragments are from were, for the most part, pretty much locked aside from perhaps the stray detail or line of dialogue here or there.
Okay. Done now. And like I keep attempting to say, I could be full on wrong, and I don't think that just because I go to film-school that I know everything there is to know about an industry I'm hoping to go into. I don't know everything, I would never say I do, and I'm not trying to say that anyone's assertions that we don't know which fragments will be intact and which ones will be cut are wrong. They're valid and make for good discussion, but I just wanted to offer my two cents. Hope I didn't come off as pompous or as a know-it-all.
|
|
