the13end
Reptile Researcher
If nothing's out there, what made that noise?
Posts: 48
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Post by the13end on Oct 26, 2010 9:20:16 GMT -5
I'm re-reading ASOUE for the first time in three years, and yesterday I started TE. On page 62, it reads "Yes," Friday said. "My mother and father took an ocean cruise while she was pregnant, and ran into a terrible storm. My father was devoured by a manatee, and my mother was washed ashore when she was pregnant with me."
If you remember, in TGG, Captain Widdershins says his wife died in a manatee attack, but LS later says that he was wrong about this. I believe Mrs. Caliban is actually Mrs. Widdershins, which disproves anyone's ideas that the swimming lady in TGG was the captain's wife. I don't know if anyone else caught this, or if there's already a thread for it somewhere.
Please discuss.
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Post by Hermes on Oct 26, 2010 9:28:59 GMT -5
It has been discussed before, but there's more later in The End which is relevant, and I don't want to spoil you. Whn you've finished the book, let us know what you think.
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Post by Dante on Oct 26, 2010 9:33:46 GMT -5
There was a thread about this, um, a few years ago. Boy, I'm looking forward to finding that. While I search, I should point out that I came to the conclusion that this didn't really fit together. For one thing, Fiona is aware of the "manatee accident" and says that she didn't think it was an accident, which suggests both that her mother is really dead and that a manatee was really involved (although a later reference by Snicket implies the reverse, but he was probably just leaving his options open). There are also a large number of other problems mentioned. For one thing, who is Thursday Caliban? Is he Captain Widdershins, who has been living with Fiona constantly since her birth with no opportunities for being stranded on an island with his wife? Or is Thursday Fiona's mother's original husband - and if so, why were the two on a cruise together and having another child? If we insist on these connections, there are too many blanks to be filled, too many assumptions that have to be made. Here's my older post on the subject, which is a bit more long-winded: At first glance, the two do seem to slot rather well, and indeed this is what I thought when I first read the book; however, I think that there are quite a few problems with that idea, so the Calibans and the Widdershins might be best suited to being parallel cases, much like the many other stories in The End that merely share a single feature or event. For example, why was Mrs. Caliban off on a cruise with her former husband who left her and her children (causing her to marry Widdershins) and given Friday's age can't actually be Friday's father? Mrs. Caliban's reason for telling Friday that Thursday was dead was because a schism had divided him and Miranda (p224), but that says nothing of her silence on her three other family members outside the island. I believe the correct form of address for a widow is usually her late husband's surname, so why is she taking her former husband's name to pose as a widow rather than her current husband's, and indeed, why is she known to Kit by her former husband's name rather than her current husband's? Why don't the Baudelaires recognise her from the photograph of the family on the Queequeg (while that photograph was taken more than ten years ago, they recognised Fernald and Widdershins himself)? Fiona's statements make it sound like Mrs. Widdershins is definitely dead and that the accident was in fact murder, whereas Lemony's later statement more implies she's alive and that the death was therefore fake, and Lemony's statement (as quoted above) implies that Captain Widdershins entirely believed that it was a manatee accident that killed his wife, but since he wasn't around at the time, Mrs. Caliban being off on a cruise with her former husband for some reason, then who told him, and what made Fiona suspicious (and why doesn't she mention losing another sibling, the one her mother was pregnant with)? When Kit mentions meeting an associate for Turkish coffee on page 167, she mentions it was " the day before I met you, Baudelaires," and if Thursday is Widdershins (which just isn't implied, and in any case, his surname should be Caliban, for the usual widow-naming convention I mentioned above, plus it'd make him Olivia's brother, which while the two knew each other as children isn't implied by Fiona's mention of Lulu), while this does fall in a gap of time where Widdershins wasn't around in TGG, it makes her callous for sipping Turkish coffee with him while the Baudelaires and his own stepdaughter had been abandoned (and captured) and for apparently ignoring any questions about Fiona, about the Baudelaires' abandonment, when she met them, and also makes it odd that she needs to go off and search the ocean to meet him again after less than twenty-four hours. Another reason Thursday can't be Widdershins is that Thursday was shipwrecked on the island at the same time as Miranda, but left (p224), but at the time, Widdershins had Fiona to care for as well on the Queequeg, wouldn't have been taking cruises, and was indeed implicitly aboard the Queequeg when he lists the former seconds of the crew of two from Mrs. Widdershins to Phil. I think that even if Handler intended Mrs. Caliban to be Mrs. Widdershins, there are too many inconsistencies and mistakes for it to work practically. It'd work if Miranda abandoned Fernald and Fiona and Widdershins forever while pregnant with the child of Captain Widdershins, ran away with the former husband who left her, and then got shipwrecked. And that not only assumes some fairly inexplicable actions on the part of Mrs. Widdershins, but also makes the story far more convoluted than it needs to be and far more convoluted than it's implied to be. I think that the Caliban backstory is just another parallel to the story of the Baudelaires, just like the history of Ishmael and like the other islanders have histories that match up with Kit's or Olaf's. What clinches it for me is that the Baudelaires should've recognised Mrs. Caliban. If Handler was trying to hint that Miranda was Fiona and Fernald's mother, I find it hard to believe that he wouldn't have dropped a few hints regarding the Baudelaires thinking she looks familiar, or that Friday bore a family resemblance to someone else they'd met, etc. But there are no such hints whatsoever. The only thing these two families have in common is a manatee which might not exist.
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the13end
Reptile Researcher
If nothing's out there, what made that noise?
Posts: 48
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Post by the13end on Oct 26, 2010 22:35:32 GMT -5
1. Hermes, don't worry about spoiling it for me. It may have three years since I last read the series, but I read them so many times over and over again, that it surprised me this time how much of the tiny details I remembered. Haha And as for what I think of ASOUE, it's not my favorite series (right now, nothing can beat The Strain Trilogy), but Handler is my favorite author.
2. Thanks, Dante. I read the other parts later where they talk more about that. After reading it, I thought of something else that may or may not be true: Perhaps Mr. Caliban and Mrs. Widdershins were caught up in the same manatee "accident," but were able to work together and defeat it (them)? Afterwards, they went on by themselves for some unknown strange reason without telling anyone. Who knows? So many secrets and theories surround this series.
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Post by Hermes on Oct 27, 2010 9:58:10 GMT -5
OK. The thing I didn't want to spoil you for is that later in the book it emerges that there wasn't really a manatee incident; this was made up to cover the fact that Miranda's husband had left her (while she was pregnant) and returned to the mainland.
I think when we first meet Friday, there is a very definite temptation to connect her with the 'Widdershins' family, and this was almost certainly intentional. It's a very plausible theory, at first, that she is the daughter of Captain and Mrs Widdershins, that they were separated in an incident involving a manatee, and that each concluded the other was dead. This is cast into doubt when her mother apears and says her name is Mrs Caliban, but it's possible that she has resumed her maiden name for some reason. But at the end, when we hear quite a lot more about Friday's father, and the circumstances of her parents' separation, this theory turns out not to work.
I think it's best to see it as a parallel story rather than another part of the same story - just as Olaf and Ishmael both tell stories which parallel that of the Baudelaires in various ways. There is another definite parallel between Fiona and Friday, I think, at the end, where Friday deserts the Baudelaires out of loyalty to her family.
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the13end
Reptile Researcher
If nothing's out there, what made that noise?
Posts: 48
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Post by the13end on Oct 28, 2010 16:25:16 GMT -5
OK thanks
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Post by Very Funky Disco on Feb 27, 2011 16:15:16 GMT -5
From other topic: My theory is that Friday is Fiona and Fernald's half-sister. The names all start with F, and both also give similar stories about their other parents and a matinee accident. I think they share the same father. Since Miranda and Captain Widdershins are both inventors of the manatee accident story, wouldn't it make more sense for them to be siblings than for Thursday to be married to Mrs. Widdershins? Well, you do make a good point. I guess the other why I decided to have Friday have a half-sister to Fiona and Fernald, was so the latter two would have an actual last name - since I know that it wasn't Widdershins. But I agree that it is possible for other connections to exist.
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Post by Hermes on Feb 27, 2011 18:32:41 GMT -5
. I guess the other why I decided to have Friday have a half-sister to Fiona and Fernald, was so the latter two would have an actual last name - since I know that it wasn't Widdershins. I favour Fagin. But actually, on reflection, I don't think the Captain did invent a manatee accident story; he really believed it, though he was wrong. It's not clear what he was wrong about - his wife being dead, or just it being an accident. I take it something really did happen that involved a manatee in some way.
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Emily
Reptile Researcher
"The World is Quiet Here"
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Post by Emily on Feb 27, 2011 19:16:38 GMT -5
My,you are right!Who else cold she be possibly be??Maybe someday this website will find all of the pieces to the puzzle and even more of the sad truth can be revealed.
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