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Post by Seymour Glass on Mar 28, 2012 20:31:51 GMT -5
San Francisco
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Post by A on Apr 3, 2012 20:07:28 GMT -5
well i don't see any kangroos and i think violet would not be skipping rocks but playing with a bomerang so it probaly atlantis ;D You can not play with kangaroos in Aust and playing with boomerangs sounds like something only tourists would do today. Australia is a modern day country, and since industrialization in Oz, many aboriginals have adopted a modern lifestyle. Also, Australia does have snow covered mountain peaks like NZ all year round (surprising, isn't it).
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Post by Dante on Apr 4, 2012 2:42:37 GMT -5
I'm not entirely sure that JM was being serious in his assessment of Australia, but that is a useful reminder of that country's qualities.
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Post by A on Apr 4, 2012 23:55:28 GMT -5
I'm not entirely sure that JM was being serious in his assessment of Australia, but that is a useful reminder of that country's qualities. Oh. I didn’t notice that JM was joking. *facepalm* Hey, here's a theory... maybe it's a fictional story that takes place in a fictional place. I agree. Daniel Handler would not have to make the location real for the series to be still good. Take for instance, Harry Potter. The location is Hogwarts. Oh maybe it is fantasy so it doesn't count. Anyway, placing the happenings if ASOUE in a real place during a real time would create limits because it would have to be realistic and a lot of LS/DH’s jokes would not be possible.
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Post by Kensicle on Apr 5, 2012 5:24:31 GMT -5
I've found an interview that sort of supports the "everywhere and nowhere" theory, at the following website: www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/conversation-2-daniel-handlerThis is the part which I'm talking about: DH: ... Another thing Gorey accomplished was creating this very closed system - this strange, timeless universe, similar to the worlds of Nabokov and the Marx Brothers - that felt like Victorian England, but could also be today’s world. The funny thing is I don’t think Gorey ever visited England - he never traveled. Interviewer: Whenever I look at Gorey’s work, I have to remind myself that it wasn’t created in the early part of the 20th century. DH: I tried to capture the same sense in the Snicket books. It’s a universe that is both unfamiliar and familiar - a fantastical world that hearkens to something real. I think that's good proof about ASoUE's whereabouts; what do you think?
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Post by Dante on Apr 5, 2012 6:17:07 GMT -5
That looks pretty definitive, although I would say it's merely a formality now to have it affirmed that the series isn't meant to take place somewhere specific in the real world.
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Post by Poe's Coats Host Toast on Oct 10, 2012 2:36:26 GMT -5
So, I have discovered something that I think should be added to the discussion of ASoUE's setting. Yes, it is set in a timeless everywhere, but it's not really steampunk where everything's wacky. The "timelessness" and "everyplace" only comes from the details that appear here and there. It does have a setting that has more aspects of one place than the other, and more aspects of one time period than another. It is not set later than the 90s, as Daniel Handler has said that the series is set "a very long time ago." One might argue that the 80s also fall out because of this (as that decade isn't that long ago for Daniel Handler), also because there are no mobile phones, video games (which would be probably in some way referenced, since it's a series about children) or the like. The only argument I can find about it not being in the 70s either is because of music. There is no indication of anything remotely having to do with musical bands, concerts, or loud music like Hard Rock. I know it's a rather weak argument, but for me it is enough of an indicator. As Very Funky Disco already said, Klaus mentions the 1920s in The Reptile Room, as if it was in the past. That leaves about 5 decades the series could take place in. With TUA we saw photographs that could not have been taken earlier than the 1910s. Many looked like from the 1920s and I think we can agree that they couldn't have been taken later than the 1940s (at the end some photos were probably taken later, but they also featured an adult Snicket in them). Now with the release of All The Wrong Questions, which tells of a 13-year-old Lemony Snicket, it's difficult to guess, but we know that illustrator Seth's entire body of work before has been dabbling in the 1920s and the 1930s, and visually this doesn't really change in WCBATH (a big indicator are the cars, smaller ones the clothing, furniture and buildings). This would fit with TUA being vaguely set in the 1910s to early 1920s (for a large part anyway), and with my following theory fueled by a recent discovery. I looked at the "Kind Editor" letter in TGG, which is written on stationery from Hotel Denoument. On one of the ripped pieces of stationery you can read the numbers "800 632 [ripped off]." Those a numbers from a telephone number. "800" is an area code from the US or Canada and is active since 1966 (this may or may not be of importance, you decide, really) [ source]. What I find really interesting is that there is the phone number "800 632 1709", which is the number to a San Francisco travelling and hotel booking agency. I think this is not a coincidence. Living in San Francisco, Handler must have found the number on some leaflet or the like, and must've known that those first numbers are for San Francisco (mind you he could've easily used the first numbers from the Library Hotel in New York, which Hotel Denouement is based on, instead). So. Knowing all of these facts, I think the setting of ASoUE is San Francisco and its surrounding area in the 1960s, in a slightly different universe, where details from other places and other decades bleed through. Thank you for reading.
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Post by Hermes on Oct 10, 2012 9:48:38 GMT -5
Totally agree that it's San Francisco, or a version thereof.
As to date: I really like the idea that 'details from other places and other decades bleed through'. I think this means that we can't really take technology as evidence - it's clear in any case that the technology of ASOUE is up-to-date in some respects (fibre-optic cables) and not others (typewriters).
What may perhaps be more stable in the ASOUE world is writing, so that we might use literary references to date the events. The most recent literary work I can remember being referred to is Larkin's 'This be the Verse' ('Man hands on misery to man...'), which was published in 1971 - that suggests the events happened later than that.
I'm doubtful that the photos are helpful, because they seem in many cases not to be genuine - they've been inserted by the editors to fill gaps where the originals are missing. For instance, they show the Prospero as a steam ship, when the drawings, both in TRR and in TUA, make it a sailing ship.
Here are the reasons I tend to see it as quite recent: a. Lemony Snicket is clearly still alive, as announcements about his research continue to appear in the press, and one even occasionally hears of appearances by him. b. Daniel Handler is Lemony's personal representative, and has been for some time; he seems already to have been acting as such at the time of the Building Committee meeting. He can't be exactly the same age as Lemony, since Lemony has to have been at least in his mid-thirties at the time of the unfortunate events, while Daniel was only twenty-eight when the first book came out;. also TUA suggests that Daniel was recruited as a boy by Jacques. But one might still think they weren't too far apart. (I suppose it's possible, though, that D began doing this job as a child. Thought: could he have been Lemony's apprentice?) c. Young Beatrice seems to have read some of L's books, which implies that they started appearing before she met him - i.e. within ten years of the unfortunate events. (Though as someone suggested a while ago, she might have got a sneak preview through being at a VFD school.)
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Post by Poe's Coats Host Toast on Oct 10, 2012 18:32:15 GMT -5
What may perhaps be more stable in the ASOUE world is writing, so that we might use literary references to date the events. The most recent literary work I can remember being referred to is Larkin's 'This be the Verse' ('Man hands on misery to man...'), which was published in 1971 - that suggests the events happened later than that. Ah, good point. As I already said, I can't think of any hard hitting evidence that it's not set in the 70s (music and clothing being only indicators). So it would make sense to choose the setting to be the 70s. Although personally I'd rather take this literary reference to a 1971 poem more as a guideline, and not a strict timeset. It's certainly a poem that has more "modern" (post-Beatnik generation, ca. late 1950s) aspects (f.ex. having the word "f*ck" in its first line), so I guess I'd set the series in the early to mid 60s. And now I want to see a Mad Men/ASoUE cross-over fic. I'm doubtful that the photos are helpful, because they seem in many cases not to be genuine - they've been inserted by the editors to fill gaps where the originals are missing. For instance, they show the Prospero as a steam ship, when the drawings, both in TRR and in TUA, make it a sailing ship. I guess you're right about the photos being unreliable sources, but their timeset could still be a hint at what the timeset of the originals were, as it would also align with ATWQ being in the 20s/early 30s. I suppose it's possible, though, that D began doing this job as a child. Thought: could he have been Lemony's apprentice? That's a great theory I like imagining! c. Young Beatrice seems to have read some of L's books, which implies that they started appearing before she met him - i.e. within ten years of the unfortunate events. (Though as someone suggested a while ago, she might have got a sneak preview through being at a VFD school.) I think that must be it (her reading a rough draft of his book/s), as she couldn't have been alive at the release of the first book where Lemony dedicates it to dead Beatrice.
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Post by Isadora Is a Door on Oct 11, 2012 8:59:58 GMT -5
In my head, ATWQ is set around the 1930s
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Post by Hermes on Oct 11, 2012 14:13:49 GMT -5
I think that must be it (her reading a rough draft of his book/s), as she couldn't have been alive at the release of the first book where Lemony dedicates it to dead Beatrice. Surely it is the older Beatrice to whom the book is dedicated? The only possible dedication to young B is that of chapter 14, 'We are like boats passing in the night, particularly you'.
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Post by Poe's Coats Host Toast on Oct 12, 2012 9:46:48 GMT -5
Surely it is the older Beatrice to whom the book is dedicated? Right, sorry, I must've not noticed you saying "Young" Beatrice. I definitely agree with you on that then. Although I don't think it's really valid evidence (Beatrice S. reading the books) that the events in ASoUE are recent. Beatrice S. has obviously grown up and could've been be in her 40s (being born in the 60s) when she wrote Lemony (and that if she wrote him shortly before the release of TBL). Edit: see below But you have a point with Lemony still being active, as in not being over 90 years old. I guess it just depends on how old you think Lemony Snicket is. With my theory he'd still have a reasonable age for being an active member in society, I think. Now that I think about it, it's really convenient for DH never showing LS's face, making it impossible to know whether he's really old or not. But here's a roughly estimated timeline to show that my ASoUE-in-the-60s theory could theoretically check out: 1926 - Lemony Snicket is born 1939 - WCTBATH - LS's age is 12/13 1952 - Violet Baudelaire is born - LS's age is 27 1967 - ASoUE events are over, Beatrice Snicket born - LS's age is 40 1999 - ASoUE books start being published - LS's age is 72 2006 - The Beatrice Letters are published - LS's age is 79 Today he'd be 86 or 87. He'd be as old a Andy "Matlock" Griffith when he sadly passed away this year.
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Post by Dante on Oct 12, 2012 11:07:09 GMT -5
Beatrice says in BB to LS #6 that she's ten years old.
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Post by Poe's Coats Host Toast on Oct 12, 2012 12:47:10 GMT -5
Ah, really? Damn, apparently I totally forgot that, and it's been a while since I read TBL. In that case I'll have to adopt the theory of Beatrice S. reading an early draft of the first ASoUE books in order for my theory and timeline to work. I mean, otherwise (that is if she wrote Lemony immediately after the publication of The Bad Beginning) she would've been born in 1990. And like I said, to me that seems too recent for Daniel Handler to call the ASoUE story taking place "a very long time ago," aside from the fact that most of the artwork of the book wouldn't possibly fit into the time set. And after all, if one is to trust the "To my kind editor" letters (and I don't see why not), Lemony Snicket does provide photographs and material for Brett Helquist to help him illustrate (this still being part of the "story" of ASoUE, not reality).
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Post by Dante on Oct 12, 2012 14:03:45 GMT -5
You're of course free to speculate as much as you want, but I really do honestly think it's a fool's errand to try and tie ASoUE down to a specific time or place. It's clearly not meant to be grounded in real geography or history but standing to the side of them, and I think people should spend their intellectual efforts on something more fruitful. I do commend the thought you put into this, but not the end to which it's directed.
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