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Post by colette on Sept 25, 2012 13:45:46 GMT -5
This is my question for those guys who are NOT English-speaking and who read the translations of ASoUE in other languages. Did you like how it was translated in your book? Why?
P.S. It is my weekend tomorrow, so I will be free and I will tell you everything about my translation. I vote for "Average" and I will later explain why.
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Post by Dante on Sept 25, 2012 14:44:40 GMT -5
While I can't vote, I'd be very interested to hear what readers of the non-English editions have to say about the translation quality. I know thedoctororwell has always been vocal on this subject, and Antenora's written some notes about the Spanish editions.
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Post by Kit's tits kick ticks on Sept 25, 2012 15:07:30 GMT -5
The German translations are okay. I'm generally not a big fan of translated books, I alway try to read every book in the original language (if it is a language I understand, but in most cases it is), the silly thing is that I consider becoming a translator... The word plays are translated very well and the fun with the language is still there in the german versions, but there are some things the translators missed, for example the anagrams of "count olaf" and such tings, so the mysteries are not really working. I'd love to read at least one of the books in Swedish to look at that translation, and maybe a french and italian version.
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Post by Poe's Coats Host Toast on Sept 25, 2012 15:28:14 GMT -5
The Polish translations (by Jolanta Kozak, Egmont) are excellent. They do not only translate the words and sentence structure perfectly, but the mood and details (alliterations, anagrams) as well. The German translations are quite alright, but not as good in my opinion (they're definitely not bad or anything close to it; mainly they lack the alliterations and the prose just seems to be more simple from the English original, as in for younger children, I felt).
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Post by thedoctororwell on Sept 25, 2012 18:03:57 GMT -5
I can indeed speak for the french translations of Asoue, published by Nathan and translated by Rose-Marie Vassalo; I've actually met her several times, which makes me increasingly unconfortable criticizing her work (and god, do I have my work cut out for me).
...It would be difficult giving an exhaustive opinion on that subject, simply because there's so much to discuss. It's also complicated sometimes to differentiate things that were actually put there by the official translator and things that were more of a case of executive meddling by Nathan. To add to the confusion, I recently read the french translation of WWBU (also done by Rose-Marie Vassalo) and it seems like it was written by a completely different person with opposite tastes and values.
I'm only going to focus on the "artistic" side of things to make it short. Simply put, this french translation is a pleasure to read. The style is vivid, with a rich vocabulary and a lively manner of narration. Rose-Marie Vassalo is a writer herself (her books have translated in other languages, actually), and it shows.
Nevertheless, most people who read both in english and french tend to criticize the narrative style of the french books. Basically, you could say that Vassalo doesn't care about translating the very peculiar narrative style of Lemony Snicket ; it's more like she's taking a rough outline of the plot and adapting it in her own style, as if she was writing one of her usual books.
I'm not exaggerating, because the syntax of the original sentences has been purely and utterly destroyed. Most of the time it's basically pointless to check how a particular sentence was translated, because it's impossible to find. Her method is to read a particular paragraph, to remember more or less what it talked about, and then to rewrite it however she wants, with her own literary quirks.
...Let's just say it gets pretty infuriating after a while, because, despite her competence, Vassalo is no Handler. It's always annoying to read the books in english and to find some passage that is so perflectly written, in such simple words... And then to check the french translation and find it's something different altogether. This "method" loses A LOT of subtilities of the original text, creates a lot of mistakes in terms of tone and irony, and most of all ruins great lines which needed no modification in the first place. So there.
Then, when we dig a little deeper, it's also noteworthy to say that the english books have a lot more fluidity than their french equivalents, and in a way they feel more natural. A lot of that has to do with the different levels of vocabulary, which don't work the same way in either language. French children are taught from kindergarden that using the same word more than one time in the same text is irritating, and a mark of bad writing. It's an idea that is really ingrained in the french social consciousness, and much less amongst the english.
This poses particular problems with Snicket because his writing style is rather simple, owing to the target demographic, and every new, fancy, rare word is painstakingly explained to the young readers. This habit becomes a bit jarring in the french translations because Snicket already has a rather extensive vocabulary and the way he chooses to explain some words and some words only looks a bit more arbitrary. But that was unavoidable, I guess.
However Vassalo's personal writing style is, well... Extremely verbose is a polite way to put it. She tends to introduce extremely dated expressions that few people know, to the point where the words Snicket defines look pretty common in comparison. I really wish she would have just toned it down a little and created a less verbose narration, because it's particulary gratting to have a verbose narrator in the first place, but nooooooo, her one sole priority is to write in her own style, whether it makes sense in the text or not, whether it's appropriate or not. And nevermind how condescending to the audience this type of writing can get !
And finally there's the fact that her own literary "universe" doesn't match with Handler's. If I wanted to be crass, I'd say she's more Loney.M.Setnick (who wrote The Pony Party) than Lemony Snicket, if we judge by her own books. It's kind of weird to say she makes the narrator of Asoue sound "out of character," since he's basically saying the same things as in the english originals, but it's true. Vassalo's style can be summarized as... "Giddy," I guess. Very giddy, and it's not the first adjective I think of when people mention Lemony Snicket. There are parts of the frech text where Snicket gets excited and lyrical at completely inappropriate moments, where he shows marks of "preciousness" when it calls for sobriety and gravitas. It simply doesn't work, unless Vassalo's true objective was to make him sound like a man-child with extreme mood-swings.
So, to put it shortly, Vassalo IS a worthwhile translator, she's just terribly "miscast" for these types of books (think of Bruce Wayne playing the part of Genghis Khan, though sadly that actually happened). Furthermore you could argue it's not even a translation, more like an adaptation, an hommage if you will. It looks good and interesting, but you could argue it's terribly disrespectful towards the original author. ...However maybe it's what Nathan wanted, because I've read her translation of WWBU and it's none of those things : she translates sentence by sentence, faithfully imitating Handler's original style. So all in all we are knee deep into linguistic schyzophrenia here.
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Post by Christmas Chief on Sept 25, 2012 19:17:05 GMT -5
Insightful analysis, thedoctororwell, and an intriguing one, too. I guess the "lousy" paragraph from TGG and the "ever" paragraph from TRR (among others, certainly) must not have gone down well with the French population if word repetition within a text is discouraged. And I'm interested in the mood the translator creates: a "giddy" approach to ASOUE that takes itself seriously - as opposed to a satire, say - strikes me as rather ironic.
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Post by colette on Sept 26, 2012 9:18:47 GMT -5
Today is Wednesday, today I am free and I will write everything I think down:
I had seen only Russian editions of ASoUE for four years until I found the series in English in 2010. When I had read them in English, I was really disappointed in Russian translations. I think I had ASoUE in English first, I would have buy Russian versions of the series only for its great illustration made buy Michael Belomlinski( to tell the truth, I think they aren't less beautiful than Helquist's). I didn't really enjoyed the quality of Russian translation despite it was my first version of the series.
What didn't I like in Russian translation? Oh... There is very much to say but I am a such lazy butt.
The titles: For example. 1. The title of second ASoUE book in Russian is Змеиный Зал. But Russian adjective "змеиный" is not the best Russian word for "reptile". "Змеиный" means "is related to snakes" and comes from a Russian noun "змея"("a snake"). " Змея" is not a Russian word for all reptiles but only for snakes. We can't call a lizard or a crocodile with a word "змея" in Russian. A perfect translation for the word "reptile" can be "рептилия" или "пресмыкающиеся". 2. The title of the fourth book is Зловещая лесопилка. "Зловещий" comes from Russian noun "зло"("evil") и the verb "вещать"("to portend"). "Зловещий" is a good translation for such English adjectives as "sinister", "ominous" or "grim". But can we translate "miserable" as "зловещий"? I think that "угрюмый" or "мрачный" would be suitable. 3. The TVV title sounds as Гадкий Городишко. The word "Городишко" doesn't mean "village". "Городишко" is an pejorative form of the word "город"( "town") + suffix "ишко"( to make a pejorative form"). The correct Russian word for "village" is "деревня". 4. The TPP is called as Предпоследняя передряга. "Передряга" is not a literary word, it is can be used in speaking Russian but I think it is not very suitable in literary writing.
Well, the titles...The worth is yet to come. 1. Скользкий склон( TSS), chapter 1: "Вайолет, помимо большого хлебного ножа, тащила три толстых теплых пальто и укулеле - маленькую гавайскую гитару с четырьмя струнами".
This quote in English: "Staggering from carrying so many things, he walked out of the caravan behind his sister, who was carrying a large bread knife, three heavy coats, and ukulele that Hugo used to play sometimes on lazy afternoons". The bold part of text hasn't been even translated! It was simply omitted. While I was reading this moment in Russian, it wasn't clear for me which freak the ukulele belonged to too and how it was used in the caravan. But in English version everything becomes clear.
2. In TPP somebody announces, "I submit these micological encyclopedias!" But in Russian version it sounds, "Я представляю на рассмотрение мифологические("mythological")энциклопедии!" Mythology and mycology are different things. It is not all. It is definitely not all. But I need to reread.
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Post by B. on Sept 26, 2012 10:51:19 GMT -5
thedoctororwell: After reading your analysis I'm rather interested in reading the French translations, although the little French I do speak is merely school French. I'm also interested as to how children reading the French translations find the writing- would the age group ASoUE is intended for be able to enjoy reading a verbose book using outdated expressions? colette: I sympathise with you, as from what you posted it seems the translation is largely lacking. Although I have some of the illustrations saved to my PC, and it is nice to see interpretations of the characters by another artist. Are the illustrations influenced by the translated text, I wonder?
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Post by Kit's tits kick ticks on Sept 26, 2012 10:51:48 GMT -5
If I had read the English books first maybe I would like the translations less, but I only knew the German translations, the only book I read in English was the last one. I will reread the series in English now, so maybe my opinion of the translations will change. And I forgot to mention the titles! The translation of the titles are really bad in German, because it is always a noun that describes the place where the book is set and an adjective that means something negative, sometimes an alliteration to the noun and sometimes not. The only exception to that rule is the second book which is called "Das Haus der Schlangen" (the snakes' house).
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Post by colette on Sept 26, 2012 11:09:08 GMT -5
bee, OK. I will scan these illustrations and post them on the forum.
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Post by thedoctororwell on Sept 26, 2012 12:16:18 GMT -5
@sherry Ann : oh no, the "never, ever, ever, ever" part is faithfully kept, simply because it's repetition for the sake of repitition so it's fine. You basically have two full pages filled with the word "jamais." However, yeah, the part with "lousy" in TGG was cut but for other reasons. In TRR, Vassalo adapted "Lousy Lane" into "Route des Pouillasses." "Pouillasses" resembles the adjective "pouilleux," which means "filled with lice," but it's not an actual word. It doesn't have the versatility of "lousy," so adapting it into context in TGG proved to be impossible. bee : apparently children like itjust fine, but it's telling that Nathan puts the books in the "ten years old or more" category when Harpercollins advise to children "above eight." As I've said, the translations are well-written and have some style, so yeah, I have fond memories of reading my first french Asoue books back when I was twelve (that was in 2002). Now I'm going to focus on the more technical side of things concerning the french translation. VFD : You'd think that this would be the most difficult thing to translate, but actually Vassalo had very few problems with it in the long run. Basically VFD was adapted into VDC, and it's pretty easy to understand her thought process. She could easily put a "de" ("of" in french) in the middle and it's easier to find words beginning with C than with ; finally most words beginning with V in english take their roots in latin so they almost always have an equivalent in french. Some examples : Very Fancy Doilies -> Véritable Dentelle de Calais (Genuine Lace of Calais). Kind of cheating here because doilies are supposedly made of paper, not actual lace, however Calais is indeed famous for producing high-quality lace. Village of Fowl Devotees -> Villeneuve-du-Corbeau (New Crowtown). One of these instances when the adaptation looks better than the original : it looks much more like the name of an actual town, and technically the term "fowl" does not encompass crows. Volunteers Fighting Disease -> Volontaires Dérideurs de Convalescents (Volunteers for the cheering up of patients). Not a fan of this one, because it makes this organisation look a lot less clueless. A lot of the humor is lost because the title isn't pretending they actually have an effect on diseases. Mind you, this irony is kept through their actions in the book, but it would have been more humorous if Vassalo had kept it in this acronym. Volunteer Fire Departement -> Volontaires Désenflammeurs Coupe-Feu (Anti-fire extinguisher Volunteers) Okay, this gets complicated. The VFD acronym is rather famous in the american culture (you see it sculpted on graves and everything) but not so much in France, in fact the majority of french firefighters are professionnal ones and even the volunteers actually get some money out of it. So it's not the easiest acronym to translate. I'm not a fan of this one either, first because it loses the ambiguity of the original (VFD doesn't just fight fires, it starts fires) and second because it's a redundancy ("Désenflammeurs" and "Coupe-Feu" mean the same thing !). Vassalo apparently isn't a fan of this one either, because in Book the Thirteenth she suddenly changes it to "Volontaires Défenseurs de la Communauté" (Volunteers Defending the Community) but it's even more of a departure from the original. Bleh.
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Post by Hermes on Sept 26, 2012 12:29:34 GMT -5
bee : apparently children like itjust fine, but it's telling that Nathan puts the books in the "ten years old or more" category when Harpercollins advise to children "above eight." Might this not just be a matter of what categories exist? I've never seen a book advertised as 10+; the 'older children' category is always either 8+ or 9+, in my experience. Is 10+ common in France? I agree it sounds more like a place, but 'fowl', simply meaning 'bird', is a historic form in English (as in Chaucer's 'Parliament of Fowls'); the restriction to chickens, ducks and the like is quite recent. And VFD (the village) has been around for 306 years.
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Post by B. on Sept 26, 2012 12:39:02 GMT -5
thedoctororwell: I have to admire the translation there, although some could give readers the wrong idea depending on how much thought they put into them. "New Crowtown" is definitely my favourite. The usual is 5-8 then 8-12 and then 12+ in Britain, yeah?
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Post by thedoctororwell on Sept 26, 2012 12:45:15 GMT -5
Yeah, age categories for books in France can get reaaaally precise, simply because they're calibrated in function of the things children are supposed to learn at school and the amount of competence in reading they're supposed to show at that age. Which is really weird because bookstores, teachers and librarians don't seem to care much for these age categories anyway. Even if they do, they're always pushing children to choose the older category because they think age categories downgrade intelligence. These people don't know what they want.
And thanks for the precision on the "fowl" vernacular - it makes more sense now !
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Post by Kit's tits kick ticks on Sept 26, 2012 12:58:19 GMT -5
I already wondered about the age group the books are for, because all the children I know who have read them were about 10-13 and in English they were recommended for younger children. I think it really makes a difference if you're 8 or 10, but maybe I only think so because in Germany you move from primary to secondary school with 10 years. But it's really interesting how the books are read by children of different ages in different countres.
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