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Post by Emma “Emmz” Squalor on May 29, 2010 11:17:19 GMT -5
You might want to add the details surrounding the deaths of Olaf's parents by very fatal darts. There is also the deaths of the Denouement parents, which I believe was caused by a house fire and that was mentioned in TPP.
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Post by Hermes on Jun 5, 2010 14:36:24 GMT -5
Here's my attempt at a timeline. Unlike most people I see it as quite near the present - the lower level of technology can be explained simply by seeing it as a world which has developed rather differently.
At first I thought the first book might have been published as the very events were happening; but then I realised this wouldn't quite work, since the events must have happened at least ten years before 2006, to allow Beatrice to reach that age.
1956 Dewey, Frank and Ernest Denouement are born. Later in the same year, Jacques and Kit Snicket are born.
1957 Count Olaf is born.
1958 Beatrice and R are born.
1959 Lemony Snicket is born.
1961 A schism takes place in VFD. The Denouement mansion is destroyed and the Denouement parents killed. The children are rescued at the last moment. Other children are also hurriedly recruited to VFD: Lemony, the youngest child ever to be so recruited, becomes the subject of a song. Esme Love is born.
1964 Olaf kisses Kit, despite Beatrice taunting him that he would fail to do so. 1968 Fernald Fagin is born.
1970 Lemony and Beatrice meet for the first time. Daniel Handler is born.
1975 On a climbing expedition in the Mortmain Mountains, Beatrice is carried off by an eagle, witnessed by Lemony and by Jerome Squalor.
1977 Lemony and Beatrice leave school; Beatrice begins her acting career, while Lemony becomes a sub-editor at the Daily Punctilio.
1978 Death of R’s mother. Lemony is promoted to drama correspondent. Lemony and Beatrice become engaged.
1979 Lemony and Beatrice steal a sugar bowl from Esme. Lemony’s review of One Last Warning to those who Stand in my Way leads to his sacking from the Daily Punctilio and false accusations of arson. Lemony leaves the country. Beatrice writes to him breaking off the engagement.
1980 Fiona Fagin is born. Shortly after this her parents separate, and her mother forms an attachment to Captain Widdershins, whom she subsequently marries. Beatrice marries Bertrand Baudelaire. During their honeymoon, they are shipwrecked and cast up on an island.
1981 Following the wreck of a bathyscaphe, caused by a misinterpretation of sausages, Ishmael is cast up on the island. The Baudelaires leave the island. Count Olaf disrupts a meeting of the building committee of VFD. Lemony sends Beatrice a telegram seeking to warn her of the danger. Violet Baudelaire is born.
1982 Duncan, Isadora and Quigley Quagmire are born.
1983 Klaus Baudelaire is born.
1986 In the Snicket Snickersnee, Café Salmonella brings about the end of the Volunteer Fish Domestication programme.
1989 Friday Caliban is born.
1990 Fernald Fagin, assisted by Captain Widdershins, destroys Anwhistle Aquatics. Fernald’s hands are cut off. Fernald defects from VFD and joins Count Olaf’s troupe.
1991 At a performance of La Forza del Destino, Bertrand and Beatrice kill [one of?] Count Olaf’s parents with poyzon darts.
1994 The Quagmire mansion is destroyed and the Quagmire parents killed. Duncan and Isadora are sent to Prufrock Prep. Quigley hides under the house and goes into a coma for a year and a half. (Something’s got to give.) Sunny Baudelaire is born.
1995 Esme Love marries Jerome Squalor. At a masked ball in Winnipeg, Lemony tries to warn Beatrice about Count Olaf, but is captured by his enemies. The Baudelaire mansion is destroyed and Bertrand and Beatrice are killed. The series of unfortunate events begins.
1996 The series of unfortunate events ends. Beatrice Baudelaire Jr is born.
1997 The Baudelaires leave the island. Their boat is wrecked and they are dispersed.
1999 The commercial publication of ASOUE begins (though some volumes may previously have been published in a limited edition).
2001 Lemony is arrested and imprisoned. Later in the same year, he escapes from prison. His death is announced.
2002 Lemony’s publisher receives a package of papers providing evidence that he is alive. Later in the year, he returns to the city (under an assumed name?) and resumes his research.
2003 Beatrice Baudelaire first makes contact with Lemony.
2006 Lemony’s research on ASOUE is completed. Lemony meets Beatrice.
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Post by Very Funky Disco on Jun 5, 2010 15:32:52 GMT -5
It sounds interesting, and it sounds like you pit a lot of thought into it..
I don't think one could survive in a coma for a year and a half without someone to provide food or water. Since Prufrock Prep is already way unconventional, I figured that it wouldn't be much of a stretch for Vice Principal Nero to redefine the word "semester", so that it's much shorter than usual. I also explained it by giving the Baudelaires a couple weeks break between the events of The Miserable Mill and The Austere Academy. It's not much, but it help a little.
If the ASOUE books do exist in the ASOUE Universe, I figured that the VFD had to dissolve shortly believe the release of The Bad Beginning.
On a side note, looking at your timeline, I could maybe set the Beatrice and Bertrand killing off Count Olaf's parents with the poison darts and Fernald and Captain Widdershins destroying Anwhistle Aquatics in the 1970s. I'm hoping that I could set more important events in that decade.
I guessed the Masked Ball would have to occur in the middle of 1981, just shortly before the Baudelaire mansion fire.
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Post by Hermes on Jun 5, 2010 16:49:25 GMT -5
I don't think one could survive in a coma for a year and a half without someone to provide food or water. Well, in real life, clearly not, but this is in any case a world where weird things can happen. That's possible. I'd rather not go that way, because I want the Baudelaires' 'half-semester' at Prufrock Prep to be fairly long, so as not to have the whole series complete within a few weeks. We know they had lost count of the days by the time Genghis arrived. (They can also spend time with Mr Poe between adventures, but I don't want to spread that out too much.) I can see why, but it's difficult to reconcile that with the fact that Beatrice seems to have read some of the books. I think we gave to say that while VFD is officially a secret organisation, it isn't in fact completely secret all the time - for instance, it puts out a recruiting leaflet, and references to its activities appear in the papers (in articles written by members). Perhaps some details in the books are falsified so that we can't actually identify members or headquarters? And of course Lemony keeps telling us not to read the books.
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Post by Emma “Emmz” Squalor on Jun 5, 2010 18:49:48 GMT -5
This is a very intriguing timeline you've put together here. I think you and I are some of the few fans who've set their timelines so close to the present day (in my ficverse, the canon begins in 1999).
I find it very interesting about the possibility that Beatrice and Bertrand only killed one of Olaf's parents, as opposed to both. Which, if it did turn out to be true, one of them could still be out there, and might even be one of the characters the Baudelaires encountered in their travels. Hmm...I think ASoUE just got a whole lot more mysterious...
Tell me, was your reason for Beatrice breaking off her engagement with Lemony the same as in the canon? If so, I assume it was mentioned somewhere outside of the thirteen books, since I don't recall ever coming across it in them.
I like the reason behind how Beatrice and Bertrand first came to the island, as well as Ishmael's reason for being there. Were those events ever mentioned in the books, or are they of your own creation?
I also like the whole idea of Quigley being in a coma for a year. Like you pointed out, it really ties in with the whole weirdness of the Lemony Snicket universe.
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Post by Very Funky Disco on Jun 5, 2010 20:01:34 GMT -5
The way I have it figured out, the series take place for roughly six months - so it starts in the fall of 1981, and it ends in the spring of 1982. Also, I must admit that I don't like the idea of the Quagmires suffering for so long. Yes, I get that it's a series about bad things that happen - but I don't want it to be too overkill.
For me, I thought that setting it in the '90s was pushing it a little too much - and, plus, there is the whole deal about wanting the Quagmire triplets to be born in 1968.
Also, regarding the books that Beatrice had read, it could easily be the early drafts of the books - and, thus, the copies that have not been released to the public. As a VFD member, I think it would be one of the things that she would have access to - that isn't available to the general public.
He may have made contact with the Baudelaires before finishing the series, but left it as if he hasn't - in order to protect their privacy.
I know quite a few of us like the idea of Esme and Carmelita converting from their old ways - and I myself am in favour of the idea. The problem there would be with the ethics of Lemony Snicket painting them as if they were still villains - if the ASOUE books do, in fact, exist in the ASOUE Universe. Perhaps, by then, both of them would have changed their last names.
There are quite a few contradictions in the books regarding when they were written in relation to the events, so the best way around it is to allow for multiple drafts - which, as I understand it, it pretty much normal procedure.
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Post by Emma “Emmz” Squalor on Jun 6, 2010 10:08:04 GMT -5
I imagine the series occurring for about a year, a belief based on something that was mentioned in TE; so, six to twelve months is perfectly accurate. In my opinion, the Quagmires would have lost their parents not long before or not long after the Baudelaires lost theirs; so I'm right there with you when you say you prefer that they didn't endure that amount of pain for such an extended period of time. I form emotional attachments to characters, too, which is why I don't believe that ones like Jerome Squalor and Vice Principal Nero perished in the fire.
You already know I'm one of those people who believes that Esme and Carmelita have the potential to reform, regardless of Lemony referring to them as villains throughout the series. I never considered the idea of them changing their last names, but I definitely see it as a possibility considering all they were involved in. In particular Esme, since she's an adult and could go to prison if she was ever found guilty of anything.
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Post by Very Funky Disco on Jun 6, 2010 12:01:41 GMT -5
I'm still undecided about whether or not the books exist in the series. Some of you have made good points in favour of the idea, and others of you have made good points against the idea - so I can kind of see this going either way. If the books do exist, though - I can see it going through several drafts, before being released to the public (i.e. non-VFD people).
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Post by Hermes on Jun 6, 2010 12:46:15 GMT -5
This is a very intriguing timeline you've put together here. Thank you! I think that they have to both be dead; it's just that one of them might have died before the poyzon darts incident. We are told that poyzon darts are the weapon which left O an orphan, but if one of his parents was already dead, the killing of the other would leave him an orphan. Well, I don't think I've given a reason, exactly. I think it has to come soon after Lemony's sacking and exile, to give her time to get over it and then marry Bertrand. We are told at one point that it was because of an article she read in the Daily Punctilio - this might naturally be taken to mean that she believed the accusations against Lemony, but I feel it must be more complicated than that. With Bertrand and Beatrice I was just guessing. Ishmael does mention being in a bathyscaphe, and it's natural to link this with a passage in TPP in which Lemony says he caused the wreck of a bathyscaphe by misintepreting sausages. Also, regarding the books that Beatrice had read, it could easily be the early drafts of the books - and, thus, the copies that have not been released to the public. As a VFD member, I think it would be one of the things that she would have access to - that isn't available to the general public. Ah, good point. If I remember rightly, in her first letter she just says 'I have heard rumours of your research'; the bits which actually imply her having read the books come after she attends the VFD school. So on that basis the whole thing could be shifted back some years.
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Post by Very Funky Disco on Jun 6, 2010 17:36:28 GMT -5
I was thinking about Jacques' letter to Jerome. Since Jerome and Esme married just one day after meeting, there is the idea of how long it would even take for Jacques to get Jerome's invitation. Now, I was thinking about the events that seem to make references to events in the series - but are really different events.
First off is the Lucky Smells Lumbermill accident-that-was-really-a-murder. While there was an attempted murder made on Charles, the Baudelaire children managed to thwart his murder. The actual death of Georgina Orwell was an accident. Thus, no successful murder actually took place.
Second of all is the couplet at the village. It never specifies that it's the Village of Fowl Devotees, even though that's where Jacques was murdered. Also, it seems unlikely that Isadora would know anything about the event. Most importantly, though, the events of the Ersatz Elevator occur before The Vile Village - and, in the book, the Quagmires were stuck in an elevator shaft.
In The Ersatz Elevator, it was strongly suggested that Jerome and Esme were married prior to the Baudelaire mansion fire. The stuff about the doorman and adopting some children in Jerome's return letter could easily be a different doorman and different children.
Geraldine's letter to Esme suggests that the marriage may have occurred even before Violet was born, but I'm sure it was much later. I'll try to figure out more about her letter. Perhaps, someone after Lemony had also tried to publish a negative review about Olaf - and the "Secret Organizations You Should Know About" is probably something she wanted to do for years.
There's a question of how much of it can be attributed to math not being Daniel Handler's strong subject, and how much of it is Daniel Handler purposely trying to confuse us.
If I set the marriage between Jerome and Esme in 1979, that means the murder at Lucky Smells Lumbermill would also occur in that year.
Tentatively, I'm thinking that Captain Widdershins and Fernald destroyed Anwhistle Aquatics in 1970 - and then, in 1972, Fernald runs away from home, not getting along with his stepfather.
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Post by Hermes on Jun 7, 2010 12:16:38 GMT -5
I was thinking about Jacques' letter to Jerome. Since Jerome and Esme married just one day after meeting, there is the idea of how long it would even take for Jacques to get Jerome's invitation. I don't think 'Married after only one evening together' needs to mean exactly that. The other intervening days they weren't together in the evenings. Or indeed it may really just mean that they decided to get married after only one evening together. I think killing one person in the course of attempting to kill someone else can count as murder. It seems to me that Handler was thinking of the events of TMM when he wrote this (note that the bald man is involved, and O's alias is S). But I agree that actually this won't work, for reasons to do with dating. It can't be Isadora, as you say. I think it might be her teacher. Whether Jacques is already in VFD for some reason, or in another village, is hard to say. Yes. Or no specific children - just 'wouldn't it be a good idea if we adopted some children?' The plan would be abandoned when orphans ceased to be in, and resumed when they became in again. (But I think the doorman might be Fernald - for all we know he has worked as doorman at 667, in between acting and committing crimes, for years.) I think we are actually told that she started doing it after Lemony's sacking. Still, I suppose it may have been discontinued and then brought back. (After all, can you really keep a column on secret organisations going for fifteen years? How many secret organisations are there?) Do you think he's related to J.K. Rowling? We are given fairly clear indications that some of the information in TUA is deceptive.
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Post by Very Funky Disco on Jun 7, 2010 13:40:15 GMT -5
It can't be Isadora, as you say. I think it might be her teacher. Whether Jacques is already in VFD for some reason, or in another village, is hard to say. It probably wouldn't be Village of Fowl Devotees, since I'm sure the people there would remember him from last time. I do also like the idea of the couplet writer to be Isadora's teacher. That's actually pretty much what I meant. They didn't have any specific children in mind. I actually thought about that, early this morning. Since I figured the event to occur nearly two years prior to the Baudelaire mansion fire, a lot could change regarding the status between Olaf and Esme - so, yeah, the doorman very well could have been Fernald. Somehow, though, Jerome never knew about Esme's involvement with Olaf until The Ersatz Elevator. Well, I remember the article where she said she wanted to start doing so - and the VFD meeting where she was in the process of doing so. The idea may have somehow gotten abandoned, though. Also, I'm pretty sure Lemony was not the only person to dislike Esme's acting - so quite a few people probably ended up being fired from The Daily Punctilio.
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Post by Hermes on Jun 8, 2010 11:13:14 GMT -5
It probably wouldn't be Village of Fowl Devotees, since I'm sure the people there would remember him from last time. He says he's hiding, so the people might not have spotted him. Of course, the building committee meeting is very hard to date. I put it quite soon after Lemony's sacking, speculating that it could have been what prompted him to send the telegram to Beatrice, but it might just as well have come a lot later. My dating has the slight disadvantage that it makes Daniel only 11 at the time of the meeting - not impossible, as there were other children there, but still perhaps something you might want to avoid.
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Post by Very Funky Disco on Jun 8, 2010 11:45:50 GMT -5
He says he's hiding, so the people might not have spotted him. I guess my point was, it doesn't have to be the Village of Fowl Devotees - but it could be, if you want it to. I figured that it was in late 1964 that Beatrice wrote Lemony that book, and that the committee meeting happened in April of 1965 - which is also when I set the second stage of the schism. I think Geraldine may have soon gotten sidetracked with another juicy event for a newspaper article, that she then abandoned the idea - until about fourteen years later.
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