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Post by Esmé's meme is meh on Oct 8, 2015 7:38:55 GMT -5
Okay first random thoughts about ?4: -I feel this book was emotionally strong. The Lemony Snicket we met in ASOUE is totally different to this one, and after three books see him scared to die and crying so much was pretty... wow. -I found this book especially strong in content too, considering it's aimed to kids. And that's wonderful. I found the description of the BB particularly scary and amazing, I could feel what they felt. -WHAT ABOUT ORNETTE?! I think she's the most likely to appear again in the future, and to become a full member of VFD (especially considering what Prosper tells us in the beginning -that seems to be important to the general plot since it had nothing to do with ATWQ plot- and that the people who raised her are Fire Fighters). I am kind of sad of the little participation she had in ATWQ but I hope it is because it was only her introduction. It surprised me that in the end Snicket talks about the future of all his associates but her.
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Post by lorelai on Oct 8, 2015 22:21:02 GMT -5
Okay first random thoughts about ?4: -I feel this book was emotionally strong. The Lemony Snicket we met in ASOUE is totally different to this one, and after three books see him scared to die and crying so much was pretty... wow. -I found this book especially strong in content too, considering it's aimed to kids. And that's wonderful. I found the description of the BB particularly scary and amazing, I could feel what they felt. -WHAT ABOUT ORNETTE?! I think she's the most likely to appear again in the future, and to become a full member of VFD (especially considering what Prosper tells us in the beginning -that seems to be important to the general plot since it had nothing to do with ATWQ plot- and that the people who raised her are Fire Fighters). I am kind of sad of the little participation she had in ATWQ but I hope it is because it was only her introduction. It surprised me that in the end Snicket talks about the future of all his associates but her. Have you seen the Ornette character profile--it's on Lemony Snicket's Twitter but I think it was linked to in the Snicket tour forum here? The information isn't canonical or spoilery, but it may provide some fun/ solace.
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Post by Poe's Coats Host Toast on Oct 13, 2015 13:49:50 GMT -5
Oh boy. Alright. After a misadventure and my stubbornness to get the LB edition I finally got and read it. While I agree that it is probably Snicket's best stand-alone book, it doesn't surpass ASoUE for me (as a whole). Not that I am disappointed by that at all, since the latter had about three times as much room to develop the story. To say that ATWQ is a bigger achievement, I feel, would mean to undermine ASoUE. However, admittedly, I couldn't possibly tell how it'd be like to compare both as a young teen, reading one series after the other. ATWQ is definitely a fantastic children's series and a Snickety detective story that is thrilling and emotional. Oh, and what I think it did better than ASoUE --where the Baudelaires were the unluckiest orphans in the world (maybe along with the Quagmires)-- was showing how most children have a problematic childhood and have to deal with grief and/or loss prematurely. Now, after reading through this thread I still have a couple more thoughts and questions; It's interesting that Snicket doesn't comment on Gifford/Ghede mentioning Beatrice (or her being with Olaf at the time). Of course, narratively it makes sense not to introduce yet another story, since it's the ending of a series where she hasn't been mentioned once before... but maybe, like some of you have said, L and B weren't yet as close to each other.
I was kinda confused by the ending as to where Snicket is going. Him saying there's still work to be done makes sense in the grand scheme of things, but is he maybe speaking of something he is about to do in the Clusterous Forest with the BB statue? Or is he just still clinging on to it, so nobody else can misuse it? Either way, I felt his going into the forest was a callback to/was foreshadowed by his earlier anecdote of having to live for nine days(?) in a forest when he was six(?) years old, learning to hunt. But what is there to hunt in the CForest except for the BB?
Oh yeah, and the illustration shows the train having derailed at the front, while according to the text shouldn't it have derailed at the back? I thought Snicket &gang stayed close to the prisoners.
Another thing that didn't make sense to me was how, after all that's happened, the train was still within hearing distance of the Stain'd bell, and only on the edge of the Clusterous Forest. Esp. since they supposedly made just the one stop near Wade Academy. Maybe that makes Snicket jumping on the train more plausible, at least, since it wasn't moving too fast for it to be impossible.
Regarding "WDE": I wonder whether Seth had illustrated the whole series in one go, rather than illustrating them one by one, year after year. If he did the former, then, knowing Handler has at least once changed something shortly before publication (in FU13:SI), maybe Pocket went under a different name before the publication of ?2 (and the illustration was never corrected).
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Post by Dante on Oct 13, 2015 15:10:16 GMT -5
Now, after reading through this thread I still have a couple more thoughts and questions; I was kinda confused by the ending as to where Snicket is going. Him saying there's still work to be done makes sense in the grand scheme of things, but is he maybe speaking of something he is about to do in the Clusterous Forest with the BB statue? Or is he just still clinging on to it, so nobody else can misuse it? Either way, I felt his going into the forest was a callback to/was foreshadowed by his earlier anecdote of having to live for nine days(?) in a forest when he was six(?) years old, learning to hunt. But what is there to hunt in the CForest except for the BB? One thing I've observed is that the ending would work frighteningly well if ATWQ were actually a villain origin story - just imagine if it were Olaf walking into the lawless wilds with the Bombinating Beast statue! But in fact I think that what Lemony is doing is going to find himself, as it were, with a side-order of making sure that the statue is returned to its proper owner; the creature itself will doubtless best see to it that the item is not misused. The whole train was derailed, but the illustration takes place after Theodora has successfully restored the latter end to the tracks. ...Is not a very good explanation, but it's the best you're going to get! Surely this would imply that Handler had the text for the entire series ready and in Seth's hands before ?2 at the very latest? I'm confident that he had a pretty good head-start owing to his publisher switch delaying publication - we know that We Are Pirates was delayed at least a year because of this - but your theory strikes me as a bit overconfident in both Handler and Seth's working pace. The series as a whole must cover a good hundred illustrations. I'm just going to say that it was poor handwriting... on someone's part... and leave it at that. (Also, I suspect that "13 Suspicious Incidents" was all on the publisher, as it ruined the title.)
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Post by Poe's Coats Host Toast on Oct 13, 2015 15:39:02 GMT -5
One thing I've observed is that the ending would work frighteningly well if ATWQ were actually a villain origin story - just imagine if it were Olaf walking into the lawless wilds with the Bombinating Beast statue! But in fact I think that what Lemony is doing is going to find himself, as it were, with a side-order of making sure that the statue is returned to its proper owner; the creature itself will doubtless best see to it that the item is not misused. Hmm. I can see his need to find himself after all this, but in the Clusterous Forest? a) He implies that the place makes him as uncomfortable as anybody else (well, except for Hangfire), so I can only imagine him going into it for a very good reason, and not just so he can throw the BB statue into the BB's cave (or something), when he could easily just destroy it (it's made out of wood, after all). And obviously, b) by going away at the very moment he does go away, he is tossing away the opportunity to act as witness to put Stew in jail for murder - which, incidentally, bothered me as well. Of course, he might then face charges for murder himself. Oh, and c) Lemony has seen the danger of messing with the BB, so how can he be sure that it won't eat him just like Hangfire after he gives back the statue? His going away from it all into the CF just felt sorta weird.
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Post by lorelai on Oct 18, 2015 15:44:16 GMT -5
I'm not sure the location has anything to do with it, as much as the need to literally move away from the events. Besides, his only other option if he ignored the forest--which does lead to other places, so no matter what Lemony thinks of it personally, it's certainly not the end-all-be-all destination--would be to return to the city, where all the adults are headed anyway. I have an idea about the statue, but I'm saving it for a fic I'm working on. If I ever get through the prologue I'll be interested to see what all of you think.
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paisley
Formidable Foreman
every boat has it's own sail
Posts: 116
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Post by paisley on Oct 18, 2015 17:33:43 GMT -5
Until we found out Beatrice and Olaf were on a mission together towards the end, I was waiting for it to be revealed that Ellington's middle name was Beatrice, or something to that effect!
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Post by Dante on Oct 19, 2015 2:26:00 GMT -5
It was a good theory at the start of the series (though the margins of canon always ruled it out), but by the third book I think that ship had sailed.
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Post by J-Bird on Oct 19, 2015 20:49:13 GMT -5
My question is; are the "Lemony is dead" rumors perpetuated right after and as a result of the series' ending? A masterful way to leave us without closure.
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Post by Reba on Oct 19, 2015 21:12:50 GMT -5
no, we at least know that the rumor of Lemony's death appeared after the events of ASOUE. the letters and newspaper article at the beginning of TUA both mention the Baudelaire case.
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Post by Dante on Oct 20, 2015 2:25:51 GMT -5
Judging from their choice of names for their child, Beatrice and Bertrand thought Lemony was dead during their time on the island; since Beatrice was pregnant at the time, that follows her engagement to Lemony by some time, and so she must have believed him to be alive for a long period beforehand. Unless we posit multiple separate rumours of his death - by no means impossible for the Averse, but perhaps a little redundant.
Added to which, Lemony being dead wouldn't have been that big a deal if it was only immediately after ATWQ.
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Post by Agathological on Oct 20, 2015 15:56:06 GMT -5
Can someone please clarify this for me; Why does Lemony dislike 'To Kill a Mockingbird'? I can see how he can disagree with the resolution; but surly Atticus' pursuit for justice ties in with V.F.D? Or is this Handler making a stab at 'Go Set a Watchman'?
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Post by Reba on Oct 20, 2015 16:05:12 GMT -5
judging by Lemony's previous disregard of Steinbeck's The Red Pony, I would assume that it's as simple as a distaste for sappy, terrible books with innocent children being taught the ways of the world by all-knowing adults.
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Post by Poe's Coats Host Toast on Oct 20, 2015 16:06:45 GMT -5
Personally, I think it's just Daniel Handler showing through the Lemony Snicket persona (/fic narrator). He probably just has certain criticism about the book that doesn't have anything to do with ATWQ or the ASoUE universe. Slightly similar to Snicket's dislike of The Little Prince, which he doesn't really explain either. Maybe it's slightly egoistic on Handler's part, but then again, maybe he just wanted to show that Lemony Snicket has a critical mind and doesn't just love every children's classic ever written.
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Post by gliquey on Oct 20, 2015 16:33:28 GMT -5
I imagine the reference was written before Go Set a Watchman came out, so I doubt it's about that. Moreover, it is clearly talking about Mockingbird rather than Watchman because it talks about the trial and alludes to Tom, rather than the characters of Scout, Atticus or anyone else who appears in the latter. I think Handler probably just doesn't like Mockingbird, and that's fair enough - we don't question why he does like some of the books he talks about / recommends to Pip and Squeak in ATWQ. He doesn't have to explain why he likes or dislikes a certain book/author when he's just mentioning or alluding to them in passing in a piece of children's fiction.
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