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Post by Carrie E. Abelabudite on Feb 26, 2019 17:45:12 GMT -5
I don't think they can all have been in VFD originally. Fernald was part of the organisation before he teamed up with Olaf, but I think the rest of them just became de facto members when they joined the troupe, like we see with the freaks later. They do seem more like equals here; maybe the stress of not getting the Baudelaire fortune pushes Olaf into ordering them around more.
I don't know if Olaf had already planned to marry Violet at this point. Certainly when the Baudelaires show up at his house, he seems to think he can get the money just by asking them to give it to him. He later tells Klaus to use it to buy a bed, so I don't think he really understands all the regulations surrounding the fortune until he gets reminded of it at the end of Chapter Four. I like this idea, though.
Yeah, that seems likely.
I think the RE suggests it was used for the Quagmire fire.
Good question. In the Netflix series, they disapprove of how focused Olaf is on the Baudelaires when he should be committing acts of villainy on a wider scale - maybe that's also the case here. TSS makes it seem like Olaf hasn't been in contact with the Duo recently, anyway.
Publicly, Olaf is always quick to denounce the importance of reading and literature, so he probably wouldn't want word to get out that he actually writes plays. Maybe he also didn't want to be the Baudelaires to be suspicious.
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Post by nisforknowledge on Feb 26, 2019 19:53:43 GMT -5
Running Commentary: Baudelaire youngsters. Ha.
“Now he’d never read all of them” Klaus. Your parents just died.
Count Olaf tours?
“It felt firm and warm, and for the first time in a long while Violet felt as if her and the lives of her siblings might turn out well after all.” Violet, you are two chapters into a 170-chapter long sadness parade. It’s not over yet.
I have never tried Gorgonzola cheese in my life. Is it yummy?
“Depressing pigsty”, a phrase that can mean a lot of things.
“In agreeing to adopt you, I have become your father.” As noted by Quisby, if he had actually adopted them, they would have taken his last name. Did Olaf actually adopt them, and if so, were their names Violet, Klaus, and Sunny Olaf for a short time?
About the wood chopping, I think that was mentioned in the RE.
“Mr. Poe is in charge of our affairs, and I’m sure if he knew how horrid Count Olaf is, he would take us right out of here.” Oh, children. So innocent.
“lamentably deplorable, a phrase which here means “it was not at all enjoyable.”” It rhymes!
“Polygamists are people who marry more than one person,” Klaus explained. “In this community, polygamists are breaking the law, even if they have married in the presence of a judge, with the statement of ‘I do’ and the signed document in their own hand.” I think a lot of people forget this, mainly for fanon lemonberry ice weddings (unless they were married before the law went into effect.)
“And now, ladies and gentlemen,” Count Olaf said, stepping forward to address the audience, “I have an announcement. There is no reason to continue tonight’s performance, for its purpose has been served. This has not been a scene of fiction. My marriage to Violet Baudelaire is perfectly legal, and now I am in control of her entire fortune.” If Olaf hadn’t felt the need to boast, Violet might not have been able to reveal that she had signed with her left hand, and the scheme might have worked.
General: I agree with the others on the bleakness of TBB with much less of the surreal ness of later books.
Mr. Poe sounded slightly less annoying here, for some reason.
And something about the Netflix series, even though this is a book reread: The costumes used in The Marvelous Marriage are much too fancy and clean for an amateur group of actors with not much money to own. Where did Olaf get them? Did he steal them?
You know what, he probably stole them.
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Post by Carrie E. Abelabudite on Feb 26, 2019 21:33:09 GMT -5
I guess he's still in denial/shock.
I noticed that, too. Maybe he just likes showing off and wants credit for his schemes.
I agree, he gets worse as the series goes on, possibly just because we find out more about him.
I'm pretty sure at least some of them are from the VFD disguise kit. Didn't one of the VFD videos in the TCC episodes show a 'bride' disguise?
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Post by Dante on Feb 27, 2019 4:09:42 GMT -5
It is surprising how Count Olaf's theater troupe are described more as friends here, when he treats them through the series more as servants, maybe they knew each other more as VFD comrades before this point? I've noticed this, too. While I think the V.F.D. aspect is not too likely, it's possible that they previously operated under a kind of first-among-equals system where they recognised Olaf as the most ingenious and vicious among them, and so once the idea of launching an operation to steal the Baudelaire fortune comes up, they agreed that he could effectively take charge until events resolved themselves. I think the RE suggests it was used for the Quagmire fire. The BBRE has some conflicting evidence on this point (or rather, unresolved loose ends), but we'll come to that. The latter explanation rings true to me. If Olaf had owned up to the Baudelaires about having written this play himself, they would be more suspicious that he might have some ulterior motive to achieve by it. “In agreeing to adopt you, I have become your father.” As noted by Quisby, if he had actually adopted them, they would have taken his last name. Did Olaf actually adopt them, and if so, were their names Violet, Klaus, and Sunny Olaf for a short time? I suspect it's more that the author didn't fully understand the system they were describing. I was so confused by "lemonberry ice" until I realised it had to be an autocorrect for Lemony/Beatrice. What a ship name.
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Post by Violent BUN Fortuna on Feb 27, 2019 5:45:45 GMT -5
Sorry I’m a tad late joining in. I’ve been rather busy with lots of illustrations I’m working on, but I read the first two and a half chapters yesterday, and I’ll read more this evening. These are my notes so far:
1. I decided to read aloud (just to myself) because I really enjoy doing that. I had forgotten how hard it can be to get certain voices right — I was pleased with my voices for the Baudelaires, Count Olaf, and Justice Strauss, but Mr Poe gave me a lot of trouble. I’ll continue to work on that. It makes me appreciate Tim Curry’s work immensely. 2. The first few pages ... I love them so much. Maybe it’s part of the very act of RE-reading, but they always make me feel so cosy and excited because I can just feel the rest of the series stretching away in front of me, waiting to be explored time and again. Also I always find there is something immensely cosy about the settings and indeed events of ASOUE: perhaps because it’s so grim and full of this heightened sense of tragedy, it’s bizarrely comforting. And also of course there’s that wonderful sense of reading a book which one feels totally in tune with; this world is now one’s own, these characters are family. 3. The way Handler writes about grief, and shows the Baudelaires’ grief, is so disarmingly accurate in these early chapters. Again it gives a sort of melancholy comfort. 4. Fun fact: I learned to skip rocks because of Violet, and whenever I skip rocks I always always think of her. 5. The first impressions being wrong part always makes me smile because my first impression of ASOUE was totally wrong; some random girl in a bookshop recommended TBB to me and I resented being disturbed in my browsing process (which was unfair on the poor girl, but I was a small child and determined to find my books on my own, thank you very much) so I immediately decided I wouldn’t like them. Boy was I wrong. Thankfully my aunt gave me TBB that Christmas so I began to read them and never looked back.
In response to things other people have said:
I agree that I always thought Snicket clearly meant ‘the third time Violet visited Briny Beach after the beginning of ASOUE’.
And Violet mentioning Sunny running away: I always supposed she was really imagining Sunny crawling away and just said ‘run’ out of habit, which is quite a funny idea — Sunny just deciding ‘Nah, I’ve had enough of this, I’m out of here.’ And crawling off into the sunset to start a new life somewhere with plenty of hard objects to bite and absolutely no evil guardians to abuse her.
Oh, and lemonberry ice is an AMAZING ship name for Lemony/Beatrice.
I’ll try and read through everyone else’s comments in more detail later.
Oh also, with the BBRE comment about chopping wood, maybe I was being dense but I’ve always thought it was implying Count Olaf made them chop wood just to exhaust them, as he did with SORE in TAA.
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Post by Foxy on Feb 27, 2019 9:03:24 GMT -5
I have never tried Gorgonzola cheese in my life. Is it yummy? [...]
And something about the Netflix series, even though this is a book reread: The costumes used in The Marvelous Marriage are much too fancy and clean for an amateur group of actors with not much money to own. Where did Olaf get them? Did he steal them? You know what, he probably stole them. First of all, I was amused by everything you wrote. Second of all, yes. I enjoy it on salads. It is similar to blue cheese. If you have a severe mold allergy, though, don't eat it. And yes, stolen was my first thought. Dante, thank you for explaining the lemonberry ice autocorrection, that makes me laugh. And violetBUNfortunate, I love Tim Curry as a reader, too! He does a superb job.
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Post by nisforknowledge on Feb 27, 2019 9:18:13 GMT -5
Lemonberry ice is actually Lemony/Bertrand/Beatrice, but it being an autocorrected version of Lemony/Beatrice makes sense. Oh autocorrect. Why must you do this to us?
Edit: You know, maybe we should change it to lemonberty ice to avoid confusion.
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Post by Carrie E. Abelabudite on Feb 27, 2019 9:51:53 GMT -5
Chapter Four 'With their kind parents dead and Count Olaf treating them so abominably' - has Olaf really been abominable so far? I would say that only becomes an accurate way to describe him during/after the puttanesca incident. 'Sunny banged on a pot with a wooden spoon, singing a rather repetitive song she had written herself.' - ha! 'Sunny was [...] too scared to even try to bite the hand that held her.' - a nice subversion of 'don't bite the hand that feeds you', especially since it's the Baudelaires who are feeding Olaf here. '[Klaus] jumped up, trying to rescue Sunny from the grasp of the Count, but he was holding her too high to reach.' How tall is Count Olaf? I'm having a hard time picturing this. 'The tall, bald man peered a the youngsters. "Are these," he said to Count Olaf, "those wealthy children you were telling me about?"' Who else could they be? And surely all of Olaf's troupe should know who the Baudelaires are. Yikes, the bald man is super creepy here. Maybe Olaf told him to say that to Violet. There's a lot of foreshadowing of Violet's handedness being important here - also particularly noticeable in Chapter One. '"If I know you, Olaf," said the man with the hook hands, "you'll figure out a way to get at that Baudelaire money."' This implies that Olaf has discussed his schemes with his troupe, make the bald man's comment earlier even more nonsensical. 'Violet knelt at Klaus's side, giving him a hug to try to make him feel better." - Aww!
Chapter Five 'you know that a good, long session of weeping can often make you feel better, even if your circumstances have not changed one bit.' - IIRC, this is somewhat contradicted by something Lemony says in TMM. 'They remembered Count Olaf saying he had a map of the city,' - maybe this map displays the VFD tunnels like the one Lemony describes having in TEE. Mr Poe's reputation of being absolutely useless is solidified in this chapter.
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Post by Foxy on Feb 28, 2019 15:08:53 GMT -5
'you know that a good, long session of weeping can often make you feel better, even if your circumstances have not changed one bit.' - IIRC, this is somewhat contradicted by something Lemony says in TMM. Yes, when he and his chauffeur are trapped on a tiny island surrounded by man-eating crocodiles. It's about how miserable circumstances don't always feel better in the morning.
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Post by Carrie E. Abelabudite on Feb 28, 2019 17:23:31 GMT -5
Yes, when he and his chauffeur are trapped on a tiny island surrounded by man-eating crocodiles. It's about how miserable circumstances don't always feel better in the morning. Yeah, that's what I thought it was. I guess it doesn't exactly contradict the idea that crying can make you feel better, but it's odd that the same person would say both these things. Chapter Six
'"They were my favourite berries when I was your age"' - a rare glimpse into Olaf's childhood. 'their own kind father' - Lemony really doesn't seem to harbour any anger/bitterness against Bertrand. What's more unrealistic: the idea that Olaf wrote the entire script of The Marvellous Marriage in a day, or that he wrote it a while ago and there have been other performances of it? 'Count Olaf reached out one of his spidery hands and stroked Violet on the chin' - really ramping up the 'gross' factor here. '"But Mr Poe would probably call Count Olaf again, and then he'd know we were on to him"' - the Baudelaires are already starting to doubt Poe, but it's a long time before they fully reject him as an authority figure. Chapter Seven
'people who hate stories in which terrible things happen to small children' - I wouldn't call Violet and Klaus small children. The hook-handed man is really threatening here.
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Post by veryferociousdrama on Mar 2, 2019 5:21:43 GMT -5
Notes on Chapters Seven to Ten.
I'm surprised that the Baudelaires don't ask Justice Strauss on where to look for marriage information. If they didn't want to tell her what was going on, couldn't they have lied and said it was for context of the play?
Klaus was a bit stupid telling Olaf what he'd found out, or if he had done, the three should have confronted him together. Shows how much they mature through the series.
So Olaf's an alcoholic in the mornings. Classy, Olaf, classy. I wonder how much he has a day. Speaking of that, it's impressive how he never has a hangover, or would that be a step too far for a kids' book?
Fernald is really quite aggressive towards the Baudelaires, much more than some of the other troupe members. Is this because he knows that the Baudelaires are distant in-laws/relatives of Gregor Antwhisle? TBH, I think the fandom's quite light on him, when his one redeeming moment is saving the Snow Scouts.
OK, so let's map ourselves a basic timeline of events. Sunday evening the dinner party, Monday the Baudelaires' trip to see Poe, Tuesday Olaf announces the play, Wednesday evening Klaus reads the book, Thursday morning Sunny is trapped in the birdcage.
Olaf seems much more intelligent in this book than some of the others. All of the troupe members seem to have specific duties, while in some of the later ones this isn't the case. Does he lose has sanity as the series goes on?
Another change made as the series goes on is that the children are working more separately here. Although we do have division of labour later on, like in TPP, we sense that Violet and Klaus have become closer through the series. Sunny also gets more involved.
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Post by Carrie E. Abelabudite on Mar 2, 2019 10:33:58 GMT -5
So Olaf's an alcoholic in the mornings. Classy, Olaf, classy. I wonder how much he has a day. Speaking of that, it's impressive how he never has a hangover, or would that be a step too far for a kids' book? Maybe that's why he's in such a bad mood so much of the time. It seems like he does; his plans definitely get more and more over-the-top and less and less likely to actually help him get the fortune (e.g. the cranioectomy). Yeah, she doesn't really do much in TBB, does she? Chapter Eight
Our first 'word which here means', used to define 'fitfully'. While the definition isn't exact, it's not particularly humorous or overly specific either. 'Sunny had wormed her way into the pile of curtains so that she just looked like a small heap of cloth' - at what point is Sunny kidnapped and put in the tower? It's hard to think how anyone could have got in without Klaus noticing, but this passage could be read assuming she's already been taken. 'He found himself reading the same sentence over and over. He found himself reading the same sentence over and over. He found himself reading the same sentence over and over.' - the first of the visual gags that become a staple of the series. Does Klaus really think that just confronting Olaf about his scheme will put a stop to it? Olaf saying '"I know what the word means"' feels reminiscent of how Klaus often talks to adults. This makes for an interesting parallel, and also, I think, proves that no matter how anti-intellectual Olaf claims to be, he actually is very well-read. 'Sunny was still hidden beneath the curtains' - it probably makes the most sense to assume that Sunny got taken and locked in the birdcage while Olaf and Klaus were talking in the kitchen, but it's hard to see how anyone could have got up and down the stairs undetected. And for that matter, I don't see how Olaf could have known exactly when Klaus would have come downstairs. Maybe he was spying on him. Interesting that the narrative shows us everything Klaus says when explaining the marriage plot to Violet, instead of just saying 'he told Violet what he had found out'. Maybe this is for added realism? It could be seen as tying in with the theme that the world is bigger than the Baudelaires, and that their story is only incidental, since we aren't just given what would narratively have made the most sense. Chapter Nine
'"For children who read so much, you two are remarkably unintelligent."' The Baudelaires are definitely intelligent, but it's true they're not very... street smart, are they? Here we're starting to see the clash between practical knowledge and book learning - as the series goes on, we'll see Olaf (and other villains) mock the latter more and more. Olaf is probably at his most threatening in this scene - the way he talks to Violet, the idea that he's tied a baby up and shoved her in a birdcage, Violet's realisation of how clever and manipulative he is. Chapter Ten
The grappling hook is probably the most believable out of Violet's inventions - both in terms of materials used to invent it, and its ability to work. 'she remembered something her parents had said to her when Klaus was born' - wouldn't she have been less than two when this happened? 'Promise to look after Klaus' is a bit of an odd thing for her parents to say to her when she was still, at the end of the day, a baby, but I guess babies in the Snicketverse are much more intelligent than normal. 'At this point in the proceedings, if I were Violet, I would have given up' - Lemony seems to think of the Baudelaires as being a lot more courageous than he is, but considering his behaviour in ATWQ, this is somewhat strange. I think to a large degree he admires their morality, something that was already corrupted for him by the time he was Violet's age. I can't quite picture how Fernald would have been able to grab the grappling hook and even more difficult is the idea that one of his hooks would have been able to withstand Violet's whole weight the entire journey up the tower, without falling off. 'Sunny [...] was looking at her frantically and trying to say something past the strip of tape' - would Sunny really be aware of what's going on? Later Book Sunny definitely would have, but so far, she's pretty much been characterised as a normal baby. Chapter Eleven
First in-text mention of Beatrice! Also, the description of the 'large bundle of notes on the activities of the Baudelaire orphans' makes it sound like Lemony is researching events that happened a long time ago, although it doesn't have to be read this way. 'But most of all were the drawings and paintings and carvings of eyes' - most of what? 'With some difficulty he pressed a button' - how could he possibly do this? It's much easier to imagine Fernald having pincers that can open and shut, like in the Netflix version. '"I understand she's yours."' Ugh. Maybe Olaf asked him to say this to make Violet feel as uncomfortable as possible. '"Here's the last orphan," the hook-handed man said.' Why would he feel he needs to say this to Violet? '"We could break these bottles in half," Violet said, "and use them as knives,"' - a pretty violent thought for a character who is meant to be moral, but I guess she's not seriously considering it.
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tonyvfd
Catastrophic Captain
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Post by tonyvfd on Mar 3, 2019 7:17:05 GMT -5
“In agreeing to adopt you, I have become your father.” As noted by Quisby, if he had actually adopted them, they would have taken his last name. Did Olaf actually adopt them, and if so, were their names Violet, Klaus, and Sunny Olaf for a short time?
So can we assume that Olaf is his last name not his first? What's the consensus?
On chapter 13 shouldn't justice Strauss have recused herself from ruling whether the marriage was valid or not? In real life a judge would step down if, she knows one of the parties involved in a case. Olaf could have made the argument that since, she knows the Baudelaire and is fond of them she can not be impartial.He should have insisted in bringing the case directly to the high court
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Post by Carrie E. Abelabudite on Mar 3, 2019 10:05:45 GMT -5
On chapter 13 shouldn't justice Strauss have recused herself from ruling whether the marriage was valid or not? In real life a judge would step down if, she know one of the parties involved in a case. Olaf could have made the argument that since, she knows the Baudelaire and is fond of them she can not be impartial.He should have insisted in bringing the case directly to the high court That's a good point. Considering Justice Strauss was the judge in Olaf's trial in TPP, though, that rule probably doesn't exist in the Snicketverse. Chapter TwelveIt seems that it's not that Justice Strauss is incapable of seeing through Olaf's schemes, or that she is incapable of realising what's going on, it's just that she is so preoccupied by her dream of being an actress that she doesn't stop to ask the questions she should be asking. This becomes a recurring theme for adults in the series. 'Violet [...] realised in horror that the dress she had changed into was a bridal gown.' What did she think she'd be wearing? I think this is the only book where one of the Baudelaires' guardians is referred to as their 'new parent'. 'Klaus clenched his fists' - this implies he's angry about Violet saying "I do", but it's not like she really had a choice. Chapter Thirteen'"my bride and I need to go home for our wedding night."' - Blech. Again, I think he's trying to cause Violet the most pain possible; this seems like it's all part of his revenge fantasy. 'A certain island has a law that forbids anyone from removing its fruit.' It seems like Handler had planned out the series to a degree, although this sounds quite different to the Island we actually see in TE. 'a town not too far from where you live has a law that bars me from coming within five miles of its borders.' Our first insight into Lemony's fugitive status. I also like how we're brought into the universe of the books here. 'she tottered onstage toward her siblings' - this sure makes it sound like Sunny already knows how to walk, but again, we'll have to assume she doesn't. '"She must be very hungry after hanging in a tower window all that time"' I think dehydration would probably be a bigger issue, but I realise it's a mistake to try to apply scientific logic to these books. I like how the image of life with Justice Strauss is immediately shut down by Lemony. The subversion of the happy ending that seems likely at this point works really well as a contrast to many childrens' books/movies, even ones with orphans as main characters. 'That is not how the story goes' is echoed again. If Olaf is close enough to touch/talk to Violet, why doesn't he try to kidnap her? Maybe he wants to stay just within the bounds of the law at this point in the series. Later, he doesn't care so much about the legality of his schemes. '"Don't you want to do what your parents wanted, children?"' Another theme that becomes prevalent later on. Timeline notes: Overall, I'd say the Baudelaires are at Olaf's for eleven days. Six uneventful days, the day they cook for the troupe, the day they visit Mr Poe, the day they research Olaf's plan in Justice Strauss' library, the day Sunny gets locked in the tower, and the day of The Marvellous Marriage. Stretching the time they stayed with Mr Poe before they went to Olaf's out a little, I'm going to say that from beginning to end, the book takes four weeks. To My Kind EditorHere, we have one of the rare-ish mentions of real places. Also, one of the only indications that VFD (I assume the Herpetological Society has ties to VFD, even if not all of the herpetologists are members) operates outside the city and its surrounding areas. 'I have also managed to track down one of the few photographs of Dr Lucafont, in order to help Mr Helquist with his illustrations.' There isn't an illustration of Dr Lucafont in TRR, and would any photos really have been taken of Fernald when he was using this particular disguise? I wonder if Handler had decided who he was going to be when he wrote the letter, although the name suggests he must have thought of him as having something to do with Olaf.
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Post by veryferociousdrama on Mar 3, 2019 12:26:02 GMT -5
Just began TRR thread, but feel free to continue discussion here.
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