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Post by Gigi on Jul 23, 2007 11:13:54 GMT -5
When Harry and Hermione visit the graveyard in Godric's Hollow, there are two quotations that are directly from the Bible.
Kendra and Ariana Dumbledore's headstone has the quotation: Where your treaure is, there will your heart be also. (This is from Matthew 6:21.)
Harry's parents' headstone reads: The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. (This is from I Corinthians 15:26.)
I found this very surprising since I never had any inkling that any of the wizarding community would be considered Christians and have Bible passages on their headstones. I wonder why JKR put that in.
Then it got me to thinking about who buried Harry's parents. Were both their sets of parents dead by the time they died? They must have been or they would have raised Harry instead of Petunia and Vernon. Would Petunia have made the burial arrangements? I doubt it since she wanted nothing to do with her sister when she left to be a witch. Perhaps it was the villagers of Godric's Hollows or other friends of theirs.
Any thoughts?
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Post by s on Jul 23, 2007 11:25:21 GMT -5
That's weird. I didn't realize that. I assumed religion was not a part of the whole wizarding world thing - if it's been referenced in the books before, I didn't notice.
As for the burial, if nobody else did, I'm sure Dumbledore could have attended to it.
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Post by Gigi on Jul 23, 2007 12:20:09 GMT -5
As for the burial, if nobody else did, I'm sure Dumbledore could have attended to it. That could make sense too. Dumbledore obviously would have made the arrangements for his mother/sister years before in the same graveyard. He could have arranged James/Lily's funeral as well. Maybe Dumbledore was a closet Christian.
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Post by Dear Dairy on Jul 23, 2007 12:32:14 GMT -5
Oh, come on! There are references to Christmas and Easter holidays throughout the series. Why would they have these holidays, or call them by those names, unless there was some kind of Christian connection? Admittedly, their celebrations seem primarily secular, but still -- the wizarding community never mentions celebrating Wiccan holidays.
I thought this book had many Christian overtones, the headstone inscriptions being just one example. There was also Hermione's reference to the Christian concept of life after death, the Christmas music coming from the church in Godric's Hollow (which was, after all, primarily a wizard village), Harry's parallel to the Suffering Servant and self-sacrificing savior, Harry's semi-"Resurrection," even the idea that there are "things worse than death." I think Jo was making deliberate connections between Christian belief (and maybe the beliefs of other religions as well; I admit my ignorance) and the characters of the Harry Potter series.
I wonder if she put in the inscriptions in answer to those critics who claim that, by writing about witchcraft, she is anti-Christian or even a "Satan worshipper."
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Post by Gigi on Jul 23, 2007 12:42:14 GMT -5
I think the wizards can be non-Christian without being Wiccan. The wizarding community may very well celebrate Christmas, but not as the birth of Christ. This is the first time I remember Easter vacation being mentioned in the books (although maybe my memory is just bad). But Easter too can be celebrated as something other than Christ's resurrection.
I never thought of JKR as being someone who would write things a certain way just to please protestors, but she may have put the inscriptions in for just that reason. Seems kind of a throwaway, being the last book though.
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Post by s on Jul 23, 2007 13:06:09 GMT -5
Oh, come on! There are references to Christmas and Easter holidays throughout the series. Why would they have these holidays, or call them by those names, unless there was some kind of Christian connection? Admittedly, their celebrations seem primarily secular, but still -- the wizarding community never mentions celebrating Wiccan holidays. I assumed the festivities in Godric's Hollow were on the part of the Muggles. As for Christmas break, well...I suppose. Everything about it has always seemed largely commercial and/or secular, though, and I don't recall Easter ever being mentioned before. I don't know. I guess I just always assumed the wizarding community was nonreligious. Because, I mean, it's not like religion has ever cropped up in their conversations or anything (which one would think it would if at all commonplace). I thought this book had many Christian overtones, the headstone inscriptions being just one example. There was also Hermione's reference to the Christian concept of life after death, the Christmas music coming from the church in Godric's Hollow (which was, after all, primarily a wizard village), Harry's parallel to the Suffering Servant and self-sacrificing savior, Harry's semi-"Resurrection," even the idea that there are "things worse than death." I think Jo was making deliberate connections between Christian belief (and maybe the beliefs of other religions as well; I admit my ignorance) and the characters of the Harry Potter series. Hmm, true. It just seems weird that these themes and such are surfacing in the final installment of the series. What's the point?
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Post by Dear Dairy on Jul 23, 2007 13:20:51 GMT -5
I don't think those themes are "just surfacing" at all. Harry has been prophesyed as the Chosen One, suffered pain and anguish for the sake of other people, and expressed his willingness to die to put an end to evil in at least the last three books.
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Post by Dear Dairy on Jul 23, 2007 15:52:09 GMT -5
Voldemort was weakened and in Albania by the time Lily and James's funerals would have taken place. Right? So Snape could have attended. But whether he did . . . Hm. I'm thinking NOT, because most of the known Death Eaters were on the run after V's disappearance, if I remember right.
I don't see this series as a Christian allegory, either. On the other hand, I don't think that Bible quotations were chosen randomly. I think the inscriptions expressed what JKR wanted for those particular characters.
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Post by Jacques the Environmentalist on Jul 23, 2007 23:02:49 GMT -5
I noticed the grave inscriptions were biblical. And come off it, there's been Christmas since the first book and Easter since at least the 4th because Hermione got a smaller egg when Mrs. Weasley thought she was playing Harry. Those are christian holidays.
There's no way she put that in there just to please protestors, but yeah it's in there.
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Post by Dear Dairy on Jul 24, 2007 19:40:00 GMT -5
I don't think she put those things in there JUST to please protestors; of course not. It was an idea that occurred to me because I had been reading some online reviews of Sorcerer's Stone recently, and one of them was pointing out her so-called anti-Christian leanings, even suggesting that she was promoting devil-worship. That's the only reason I brought it up. Other writers are just as adamant that JKR is very pro-Christian.
Rowling's books are a mixture of religious/mythological references. One TV special pointed out connections to some ancient Egyptian mythology, for example. The whole story and many of the characters are heavily influenced by mythos, as was Star Wars, LOTR, and countless other works of literature. That's one of the reasons people worldwide can relate to the stories.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2007 19:49:08 GMT -5
a lot of that stuff is just coincident
Reason for Editing: bad language
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Post by Jacques the Environmentalist on Jul 24, 2007 22:39:15 GMT -5
Once again I'm hijacking this thread for my own evil purposes so we're now going to talk about anything you think was important that could be easily overlooked.
Anyone notice how Molly's actually the sister of Gideon and Fabian Prewett who went down like heroes fighting a bunch of death eaters?
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Post by Sora on Jul 25, 2007 1:32:37 GMT -5
Yeah. And I was actually suprised when George didn't die in the book, since Fabian and Gideon were twins like them, and they also share the same first initials. So Molly was orginally Molly Prewett?
Did anyone notice the continuity error with the fact that Hermione has modified her parents memories, but then later says she doesn't know how to do a memory charm? What's up with that?
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Post by PJ on Jul 25, 2007 4:43:14 GMT -5
I knew about the Prewetts thing before. I think it was on the Black Family tree or something. All I know is I read it on Wikipedia. Molly is finally being shown to be quite as powerful as her brothers were.
And I noticed the thing with the memory, that was weird.
It was a bit strange how they just left Kreacher out for half the book. I mean, he was there at Grimmauld Place, and then nothing, because they were afraid to summon him in case someone was attached to him. And then BAM, he's at Hogwarts, 6 months later.
Did everyone instantly know that Gregorovitch was a wand-maker? I did. I was all "You're an idiot, Harry!"
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Post by Jacques the Environmentalist on Jul 26, 2007 21:21:31 GMT -5
I know who Gregorovitch was instantly. I also knew that Marvolo claimed descent from the Peverells. I called a lot of things, for instance I knew 3 years ago that the bartender was Aberforth.
I had a really good did you notice thing but I forgot what it was... I wish they'd had Neville kill Bellatrix and Molly kill Dolohov seeing as Dolohov did kill the Prewetts I believe.
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