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Post by damocles on Apr 3, 2004 4:27:28 GMT -5
I just rereread TB8 and im even more confused. Douglas never knew who Natasha was--be it seemed like they all knew. And Flora was always part of TB8. Flan didn't want her to be, so she altered the stories to squeeze in Natasha or something? Plz help. Let's just start with the assumption that Flan and Natasha are the same person (for that is indeed the case) and work from there. Flan disassociates herself from her behavior as Natasha, as if she's watching this Natasha persona from the outside. She isn't submerged in the alternate personality, and that is perhaps where you're getting confused. In general, she sees herself as, say, hiding behind a tree while Natasha engages in some "croquet practice", for example, rather than blacking out completely and wondering what she's done while Natasha was dominant. Actually that's a bad example, because she did black out for that scenario, but you get the point. Someone with the power to do that does not perceive the world the way you or I do. As such, she has been able to block Flora's existence as a member of the Basic 8, just as some people can completely block traumatic events from their conscious minds. However, I feel that Handler got sloppy when it came to the way that he dealt with people addressing her as Natasha, which they obviously never did given the revelation at the end of the novel. It seems as though someone with MPD would insist that they be addressed by the name of the personality that was dominant, so surely someone in the group must have heard the name "Natasha" at some point, either Flan talking about her, or Flan correcting someone when she was in Natasha mode. Also, there are times in the novel where Flan and Natasha are in two different positions relative to another character, and describes that character having to turn to face Flan or Natasha. Sloppy. Handler's loophole in my criticism is that this is supposed to be Flan's journal. Even if no one ever addressed Flan as Natasha, that doesn't mean that Flan can't write it in her journal as such though I'm not quite buying it, myself. Ehhh...I've rambled on too long already.
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Post by negativenine on Apr 3, 2004 14:41:57 GMT -5
However, I feel that Handler got sloppy when it came to the way that he dealt with people addressing her as Natasha, which they obviously never did given the revelation at the end of the novel. It seems as though someone with MPD would insist that they be addressed by the name of the personality that was dominant, so surely someone in the group must have heard the name "Natasha" at some point, either Flan talking about her, or Flan correcting someone when she was in Natasha mode. Also, there are times in the novel where Flan and Natasha are in two different positions relative to another character, and describes that character having to turn to face Flan or Natasha. Sloppy. Handler's loophole in my criticism is that this is supposed to be Flan's journal. Even if no one ever addressed Flan as Natasha, that doesn't mean that Flan can't write it in her journal as such though I'm not quite buying it, myself. Ehhh...I've rambled on too long already. Yeah, I'm with you on that. There are certainly just as many times where characters address Natasha as there are when they seem oblivious to her. It seems a little careless of him. There are also times where Natasha seems to be doing something while Flannery's somewhere else (ie: the party). Although I do suppose that can be got around by saying that it was just Flan's point of view, and that she didn't notice when the rest of the Basic Eight did something that obviously disproved Natasha's existence, or had so many illusions that she invented things that proved it. The problem is that we think Flan's completely sane the whole time, and this doesn't seem to fit with her character. But I always get this kind of problem with diary-type books. There's too much impossible detail for it to be an actual diary entry. Try to write up a scene from your day with as much detail as this... you lose/find yourself inventing details all the time. Not realisic. Although I guess this may be a point in Handler's defense: if Flan wrote with so much detail, she had to be making some stuff up. So we're not even getting half of the story. Confusing. But I guess that was the whole point.
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Luigi
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Post by Luigi on Apr 5, 2004 13:00:09 GMT -5
And Flora took the picture, right?
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Post by Celinra on Apr 8, 2004 22:50:32 GMT -5
That's who it's assumed to be, I think.
What I never got was why they called themselves The Basic Eight before they had Flora over for the first time, and she became the eighth. Unless, once again, it's Flan not really remembering accurately.
I really must read that book again... especially now that I've done more research on MPD.
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Post by Celinra on Apr 16, 2004 23:01:13 GMT -5
Wow... I'm reading it again, and there's a lot of stuff to show Flan has multiple personalities (although some of it could be me being overanalytical and hyper... which is why I'm not going to be a psychiatrist: almost all patients would leave me with a diagnosis of MPD).
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Post by Celinra on May 1, 2004 10:50:07 GMT -5
Alright... I've finished reading it again, and here is my list of stuff that either (a) shows that Flan is Natasha, or (b) shows instances of Flan dissociating, or (c) show instances where Natasha maybe wasn't really part of TB8
pg 1 - "Gifted children have always been good at doing two things at a time..." - if she's dissociating from one thing to do the other, this would also make her good at doing two things at once. pg 12 - Natasha knew exactly what Flan was doing pg 13 - "...[Natasha]'d do anything for me." - other personalities develop in order to protect the main one, basically, something Natasha does for Flan quite a bit. This statement is basically an overview of that fact. pg 13/16 - both Natasha and Flan describe Natasha as a "Bette Davis-meets-Dorothy Parker act" - coincidence? pg 55 - "Maybe I was channeling Natasha..." - well, if they're the same person... pg 61 - the staircase scene, when Flan takes charge of the situation, and Natasha says, "Pretty soon you're not going to need me around." - if she's there to protect Flan, and Flan can protect herself, Natasha won't need to be around pg 66 - "I wanted to hiss at him, Bette Davis-like..." - as was said, Natasha is compared to Bette Davis. Again, coincidence? pg 85 - "'But that isn't sicentifically complete,' some student said. I slouched down lower in my desk..." - It's Flan talking, but she doesn't know it at first--an instance of her dissociating. pg 86 - "I heard the fury in my voice, but I didn't quite feel it." - Again, Flan dissociating. pg 90 - Planning a party, Natasha says her house is out, Flan then says her house is out, Doug tells her she just said that. pg 98 - "...either Natasha or I said, I can't remember." - shows the personalities confusing themselves, or something pg 98 - Natasha seems very adament about the fact that Flora isn't part of TB8 - maybe shielding Flan from this reality? pg 98 - Natasha is never listed when TB8 members are listed
That's all I have time to put down right now, I'll do the rest later.
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Post by AmbidextrousKevin on Jun 9, 2004 20:30:03 GMT -5
ok this is gonna sound strange but everyone hear should read fight club. its a lot like TB8.....A LOT. the movie too.
anyway, there arent actually ANY loopholes in this story. like the whole thing about giving away 8 tickets but natasha didnt exist so it was really seven....well, to flan their were really 8 tickets...and she really heard "8 tickets" but to everyone else (in reality) there were only seven.
everytime someone else spoke to natasha, they were really talking to flan. flan just didnt know it at the time. in her mind, people would say something like "hey natasha", but in reality they just said "hey flan"...thats kinda a dumb explanation...but try to understand. to her, natasha was a real person, she wasn't just standing there, she had a personality, she walked, talked, and had a life of her own, and flan created her whole lifestyle, not just her existence.
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Post by negativenine on Jun 9, 2004 21:24:47 GMT -5
Wow... I'm reading it again, and there's a lot of stuff to show Flan has multiple personalities (although some of it could be me being overanalytical and hyper... which is why I'm not going to be a psychiatrist: almost all patients would leave me with a diagnosis of MPD). I'd like to hear your really bizarre hyperactive ones, please. They will be fun to discuss!
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Post by Celinra on Jul 19, 2004 23:34:08 GMT -5
When did you guys start to suspect Natasha wasn't real? Not until the end of the book?
I didn't suspect until the end... though reading through, I'm amazed I didn't see it sooner.
I know Flan is delusional however what is happening when she is actually with Natasha? Like when she's out in the car with Natasha-- how does she actually get places? Is she actually getting a ride from someone else, or she's walking and thinking she's in a car?
I'm not sure... I'm fairly certain she's by herself, either way... she's either walking, and thinking she's riding, or driving, and thinking she's a passenger. That's my guess, anyways.
Then when Flan is stood up by Adam, and later goes to the movies with Natasha Flan is actually at the movies. So is she just seeing the flask in her mind, or did she actually carry a flask around with her? Plus the usher watched Flan walk/crawl out of the theatre drunk and Kate even heard about the matter-- so when Flan was "out" with Natasha she was actually out doing things by herself?
She did go to the theater... just that she was alone, and thought Natasha was there. As for the flask... either it's another part of her delusions, or she carries it herself without realizing it.
Another thing I've been wondering about. Flan always sees herself as fat, and Natasha is "perfect". Then as the story progresses, and Natasha begins to make appearances less and less Flan starts to see herself as thin. Like when she's in the shower...
So do you think Flan was fat, or was that another delusion of her mind? I guess that's why Handler asked the "you've seen pictures of Flan do you think she's fat" question?
I wouldn't be surprised if it were a delusion... but I always thought of it as more of an average teenage delusion, which I'd imagine a fair amount of girls have. I suppose Natasha's appearing less could be attributed partly to Flan's getting over this delusion... Natasha is there to help Flan, and encourage her, and such, so when she doesn't need as much encouragement in the various areas of her life, Natasha doesn't need to appear as much. In other words, I think it's a "Flan sees herself as more attractive, so Nat becomes scarse," not the other way around.
And, I know you guys have sent fan letters to Handler regarding ASOUE but have any of you actually answered the questions from TB8, and sent them to Flan c/o of Handler
Actually, doing that never even crossed my mind... perhaps I'll try it sometime.
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Luigi
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Post by Luigi on Jul 20, 2004 18:43:29 GMT -5
Natasha is everything Flan is not. That's why Flan "needs" her. Like when they stood up to Mokie, Nat says "Pretty soon you won't be needing me around." Flan becomes someone else--more outgoing, braver, etc through Natasha.When she's handle to stand up for herself and to feel confident without the outlet of Natasha, Natasha isn't around. Like after she was raped by Carr.
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Luigi
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Post by Luigi on Jul 20, 2004 20:24:31 GMT -5
Is this how you interact with C? Do you think having a daemon is similar to having MPD? Do you ever talk to C inside your head? C: This is, what, the fifth time we had to explain this? J: Capt is just a little gig I have for this message board, to spice things up. And it's strictly for this message board. I don't believe I have a daemon, even though I want one more than anything, and I don't talk to one outside this board, even. But thanks for thinking I'm mentally defective. That's good for my self-confidence.
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Luigi
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Post by Luigi on Jul 21, 2004 17:30:31 GMT -5
SCRUBS SPOILERS
Oh, and did anyone see the Scrubs episode where "a patient" dies and the audience is supposed to assume it was another patient, rather than Dr. Cox's brother-in-law, Ben, because Ben appears for the rest of the episode, but only Cox interacts with him.
Nevermind. Well, that's how TB8 should've been.
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Post by SlightlyMad on Aug 1, 2004 12:34:18 GMT -5
Natasha is everything Flan is not. That's why Flan "needs" her. Like when they stood up to Mokie, Nat says "Pretty soon you won't be needing me around." Flan becomes someone else--more outgoing, braver, etc through Natasha.When she's handle to stand up for herself and to feel confident without the outlet of Natasha, Natasha isn't around. Like after she was raped by Carr. Like two halfs of a FLAN* Sorry, I can't really contribute as I'm on 250 pages through the book. *Bad pun
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Luigi
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Post by Luigi on Aug 5, 2004 15:54:44 GMT -5
Another thing....Flan says she keeps imagining Adam even when he's not there. C: It's like a foreshadow.
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