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Post by invaderkrag on Sept 7, 2006 0:22:50 GMT -5
My biggest problem right now is not about the beatrices (if there isn't just one) and their identities, but deciphering which of the Beatrices Lemony is writing each of the letters to, and which of the Beatrices are writing each of the letters back. I haven't really been able to search through to find any differences...I plan to, however. Even if we don't know their identities, we can maybe manage to sort out the letters. Anyone making headway on this? (or the poem, as well?)
Also, the uses of "The Silence Knot," throughout TBL don't really make a whole lot of sense in the context of the real meaning of the anagram....it's quite odd.
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Post by Sora on Sept 7, 2006 0:33:47 GMT -5
I thought it was fairly obvious which of the Beatrices was which. At least, in terms of the letters. The ones Lemony sends are for the Beatrice that is the same age as him, the Beatrice who does not want to marry him. The ones from Beatrice are for the older Lemony, the Beatrice that is younger than the other Baudelaire children. I think the real question we must ask is, how is this young Beatrice related to the elder Baudelaires? Are they all siblings, or is Beatrice a young cousin? Or an aunt that is younger than them? That sort of thing does happen.
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Post by PJ on Sept 7, 2006 2:15:07 GMT -5
Woah. I finally read through this whole thread...and I have a whole lot to say. A WHOLE LOT. I'm not joking. I checked in words. Five full pages in font 12. So if you're in a hurry, don't bother.
So I read through it all as soon as I bought it. Then, when Lemony dropped the "two Beatrices Bombshell" near the end, I re-read it, and now I can clearly see which Beatrice is which. Like Sora said.
Ok. The letters FROM Beatrice, are from ANOTHER Beatrice Baudelaire, who is looking for Violet, Klaus and Sunny, and is NOT their mother. Lemony does not want to see her, for some reason, and she is a baticeer. That said, it never clearly states what age she is, so I don't see why you all call her the "young" Beatrice. For all we know, it's the Baudelaires' aunt, who's trying to find them, who could be older or younger than the Baudmum.
As for the timeline, I think the letters are presented pretty much linearly in their own frame. That is to say, Lemony's letters occur in chronological order, as do Beatrice 2's, but they they are set in two different time streams, and do not affect each other. The only non chronological thing is the small letter by Beatrice 1 at the very end.
Ok, second of all, Beatrice 1 is the Baudelaire mother, and she is the one who Lemony loved, and who rejected him. The only letter we have from HER is the last, the one in which she wants to meet him, and is 10 years old.
Ok, now, the reasoning. Beatrice 2 states that she is searching for V, K, and S, and is looking for a detective who can help her. As she mentions that this detective has written about the children, we can safely assume that it is Lemony (as well as the countless references to My Silence Knot).
Beatrice 1 is the Baudelaire mum, because she is married, and is pregant (most likely with a girl...Lemony does rant on about it being a girl for a bit), and, the big one, her last name is Baudelaire. Now you lot probably won't accept just that as hard evidence, you'll find some loophole or something, but it's enough for me.
Also, did the Baudelaires ever mention their mother acting? If so, it only strengthens my theory.
But yeah. More proof is that Beatrice 1 and Olaf have a history, which might be a reason for him having burnt her house down (as opposed to him just randomly setting volunteer's houses on fire, which is also possible), as well as a history with Esmé, which could account for the whole "sugarbowl" thing.
Ok, so I think that Beatrice 1 is dead. In some fire, in the afternoon. Perhaps that is yet to come, but I doubt it. Beatrice 1 is dead, at least, by TPP, says me.
Beatrice 2, however, is still alive, and is most likely the long lost sibling of the Baudelaires, probably their older sister (the baby Lemony mentions Beatrice 1 being pregnant with). She might even be Lemony's daughter, if she is the eldest. She refers to herself as an orphan, which indicates that she has no parents (because they are also the Baudelaires' parents). They are her family, her only remaining family, apparently. And, of course, her name is Baudelaire. And her name is Beatrice, after her mother. She's also a baticeer, like her mother. She also says the Baudelaire children are the "three most important people in her life". If she was their auntie, or cousin, it wouldn't make as much sense than if she was an orphan. I'm assuming she was taken away at birth, or something, so it makes sense that the only family she has left, that is to say, the Baudchildren, are the most important in her life.
That said, she could also be their auntie, but that would mean she'd have to be Bertrand's sister. I suppose a cousin would also work, on Bertrand's side. That said, if it's the auntie, then she can't have been named after Beatrice 1, and in both cases they couldn't take after Beatrice as a baticeer.
But yeah, I think TBL is awesome. There's so much symbolism. The two Beatrices on the cover hint at the two actual Beatrices, and the 13th page indicates the End, as well as the fact that there is two files (one for each of the Beatrices, as is referred to in the letter to the editor), , his mention of letters that are scrambled, which hints toward the Beatrice Sank anagram, and there's so much more. I've forgotten half of the stuff I wanted to say, and am about to go fencing, so when I come back I'll re-read TBL and say more.
But yeah, I think that Beatrice 2 will meet up with the Baudelaires in The End (because, you know, the whole "comforting Klaus after the burning of Hotel Denouement", as well as the fact that Handler can't just bring her into the plot, and then not include her in the End at all.
As for the shipwreck painting, the boat is marked "Beatrice", and includes the paddle that the Baudelaires brought. We didn't know it was called Beatrice, but that seems to be the Beatrice that the "Beatrice Sank" referred to. Although it could also refer to the death of Beatrice 2. What's more interesting is that it seems like Klaus' glasses and Violet's ribbon have been left behind, as well as what appears to be an egg beater (Sunny?). Whether this is metaphorical or not has yet to be seen. Perhaps it means the Baudelaires "sank" into immorality, or something crazy like that, and only the remnants of them have remained.
But yeah, the cave image is probably the cave mentioned by Beatrice 2 as the place Lemony stayed, although she said it was empty....perhaps the picture is of the time when Lemony was still in there (his hat is there?!?), because it's got pictures of the glasses, the bow and the egg beater, as well as the other piece of the sign, and, of course, some bats. It's also near the city (presumably...you can see sky scrapers...some of which are emitting smoke. A fire, perhaps?).
But yeah, as for the book itself, it was awesome. The poster is allright (I'm going to hang up the shipwreck side), the letters are fantastic, and the file thing is great, as are the cut out letters on the front. It's great.
Edit:
Also, do we have any idea what the questions were, that Beatrice 1 asked? We should make a list and guess what they were.
And the long list of Lemony's love comparisons is also interesting, particularly the bit about the daggers in the back. I'll have to look at that bit again.
There were two instances where the word "ring" was used, but, like the others, I have yet to discover any Sebald Code.
While I'm at it, when Lemony said in his answering the questions "Kit, Jacques and I," I remembered the children in the UA. You know, that photo of two boys and a girl, two of which were sent to Prufrock? This has probably been thought before, but they're mostly likely the Snicket children. Just thought I'd say that. Has it already been discussed?
Edit Again:
Sorry for the monster post, I just keep on thinking of stuff I want to add.
In LS to BB #4, there is a coffee mug stain, indicating that some villanous person has read it. The letter was missent to someone (I think it's R...but the writing is weird). Could this mean that R. is villanous? And perhaps she intercepted the message on purpose, instead of because of the bats' lack of training?
And the figure of the paperweight Lacrymose Leech looks vaguely like a question mark, although it looks more like an "S".
Perhaps the ? beast in TGG is just a giant Lacrymose Leech? Again, I've been out of the loop for a looong time, and apologize if that's already been said.
I also find it highly interesting that Beatrice 2 says "I am leaving the city, only hours after finally seeing it for the first time". This is most likely referring to the City in which the Baudelaires lived (although this isn't specified, it is just a city in which Snicket has his detective office).
Another interesting thing is Lemony's refferance to a "headmaster" who apparently gave him his first undercover job. I just think it's interesting, is all. Does the headmaster run VFD? Or just the neophyte training? Is he the same headmaster as the one at Prufrock who we never see?
Heh, I'm just skimming the book and constantly finding interesting tidbits. "I hope you will never have to wear that butterfly costume again." Says Lemony. Ironically enough, she does, on the ball of R., Duchess of Winnipeg, many years later (cos Lemony says he hasn't seen her in 15 years, and at this point he is still regularly meeting with Beatrice). Curiously enough, in the same letter, Lemony mentions that R.'s mother is dead, and she is now the new Duchess of Winnipeg. If it WAS in fact R. who put that coffee stain on that other letter, and she is villanous, it's entirely possible that she is the one who murdered her mother, and possibly alerted the police to Lemony's presence at the ballparty many years later.
It's also interesting to note that amongst the "I love" rant, Lemony says that manatees love lettuce heads. Perhaps that somehow connects to the death (or supposed death) of Mrs. Widdershins?
Edit Once more:
Beatrice 2 also mentions in letter #3 from BB to LS that she traded the shepherds a "ring emblazoned with the initial of someone I believe you once knew". Lemony later mentions that Beatrice 1 sent back the ring emblazoned with the Initial of R, which once belonged to R.'s mother. Perhaps these two rings are one and the same? If so, how have they wandered from Lemony's possession to Beatrice 2's? If Lemony is Beatrice 2's dad, then that would explain it....and how did Lemony get R.'s mother's ring, in the first place? I
Edit after coming back from fencing:
It's also interesting to note that she says listening to Sunny appearing on the radio to discuss her recipes. Since Sunny is only just learning to speak, and hasn't really had time to make any proper recipes, we can assume that Beatrice 1 knew Sunny for quite some time after the events of the End (or just after TPP, in case the End takes place over several years, or something). So they don't die, or at least, Sunny doesn't. But then she loses the children again (perhaps near the end of the End), and is trying to track them down via Lemony. "and now that we have been seperated, I will not rest until I find them again."
I also found it of interesting (yeah, I know I'm overusing the "interesting" thing, but I'm in too much of a rush to bother to think of some alternative. Same with stuff like "but yeah" and all that.) that she said that the Baudelaires' travails seem to vary wildly at times from what Lemony is telling us. In which case either the Baudelaires are lying, or, what seems more likely, Lemony is distorting the truth somewhat, perhaps to aid VFD by making Olaf look more criminal than he really is, or something to that effect. We've always seen Lemony as moral, but what if he's just using the Baudelaires' story for his own purposes?
Lemony also refers to something he very much wants to ask Beatrice 1, but won't in a letter that is sent by "Flying rodents" (it WAS Lemony, Gretchen). Could this refer to a marriage proposal? Most likely, as the next letter featured is his reply to Beatrice 1's rejection.
Yep, another edit:
Beatrice 2 says "without Violet, Klaus, and Sunny I never would have continued my studies with these last few colunteers, and become the "baticeer" I am today." She also refers to a secretarial school with a Vice Principal that wasn't actually a secretary school....perhaps she means Prufrock? In which case, it is definately tied to VFD. She also mentions the tedious flat-footed teacher, perhaps the same that Lemony had when he was a child, but as this has taken place quite a bit after The End, said teacher must be pretty old. Or maybe the two teachers are completely unrelated. That said, she later says: "...and help me find the end of a story that began with you -- in this very room where I sit now, about to hand this letter to my business letter writing instructor so he will grade it and mail it." This means that the school was definately the one that Lemony went to, which is strange, because it's been said that Hotel D. was the last safe place, but this school still seems to be in action...maybe it was corrupted, or something. And the story beginning there could also be used as evidence for the Baudmum theory, and the theory that Beatrice 2 is the daughter of Beatrice 1, as Beatrice 1, 2, the Baudelaires and Lemony are all part of the story.
Beatrice 2 also says that Lemony is setting on a bench in a park, examing a ring etched into the sruface of the wood by someone careless with their drinking glass. This reminds me of TBB:RE, which says: "All of these benches were lost in the destruction except one, which has since been moved to the lobby of a hotel. It is easily recognizable due to a small unsightly ring, left by someone who did not use a coaster underneath his or her beverage."
In Lemony's second last letter, he says that he will love Beatrice 1 with no regard to the jealousies of actors. Perhaps Olaf was jealous of Lemony's relationship with Beatrice 1, which is why he broke it up? Or perhaps Esmé had a thing for Lemony, and was jealous? Or perhaps they're referring to Beatrice 1's future husband, if he was an actor?
He also said that he would love her even if she betrayed her father. Perhaps her father is one of the reasons they cannot get married?
A reference to a ship hitting an iceberg is made, and the survivors being eaten by a sperm whale. Is this some sort of allusion? To the titanic, perhaps? Or maybe it was the fate of the Prospero?
A secret is mentioned that causes people to want brandy that smashes and causes a lever to open a compartment. Perhaps this is a reference to the brandy in the Rare Edition? I know it's a long shot...but still.
He also mentions Beatrice 1 marrying her co-star, and then mentions Olaf in the same sentence, as well as R., after which he comments that it will be some time until women can marry. Which indicates that his co-star is male, and is not Olaf. Who then? Did Bertrand act? He also specially mentions three children as a good number, which also hints towards Beatrice 1 being the baudmum.
There. I'm done. I went through the book twice the day I bought it. Three times, if you count that time I skimmed it. I realize that no-one will read all of this, and that many will read only some of this, and that most of it is poorly written ramblings. But yeah, I like to think that it's interesting, and thought provoking. I'd suggest browsing it and picking out the things you think are interesting. Sorry for the inconvenience.
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agnes
Bewildered Beginner
Posts: 2
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Post by agnes on Sept 7, 2006 6:55:45 GMT -5
After reading through the notes again I find it highly unlikely that BB1 is the Baudelaire mother. If their mother is a Beatrice than she is not one of the ones writing letters.
When I read LS's note at the end about having letters from 2 Beatrices I went back through the notes to try and figure out which notes came from which BB. It looks to me that all of the notes are similar (most likely from the same person - BB2) except BB to LS 6. This note is a different style and is very similar to the LS to BB 1. If you look closely at the writing the handwriting is also different in this one (note the uppercase B). That makes me think that BB to LS 6 is actually a note from BB1 that was written when she was younger (aged 10 according to the note).
If she is actually 10 when writing it then it makes it highly unlikely that she is the Bauds mom. At the time of that note her last name is already Baudelaire. Which means that when she got married her last name would change. Even if she did not change her last name, we know that the Bertrand's (the Baud's dad's) last name is Bauderlaire as well. So either she married a relative (gross), she married someone who coincidentally had the same uncommon last name, or she is not the mom.
As for the telegram written to 'Mrs. Bauderlaire,' it is possible that this was not sent to BB1 or BB2. It could have been sent to the Baud's mom. The only thing we know for sure is that her first initial has to be B. We don't know her name so it could be. And her name could be Beatrice because LS never says that there are only two Beatrice's. It just says that there are more than one and that he was looking in the files of only two.
I also have a hard time accepting that BB2 is the Baud's sibling because that feels like another blow to the kids who have already suffered a lot. It would probably be hard for them to accept that their parents (who they thought were so good and honest) never told them that they had another sibling. I would think it more likely that BB1 is their aunt and BB2 is her daughter, their cousin. Since BB1 is dead, that would still make BB2 and orphan. If the Baud's are her only living relatives than that would make them very important to her.
Sorry if this got long.
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Post by PJ on Sept 7, 2006 7:35:31 GMT -5
After reading through the notes again I find it highly unlikely that BB1 is the Baudelaire mother. If their mother is a Beatrice than she is not one of the ones writing letters. When I read LS's note at the end about having letters from 2 Beatrices I went back through the notes to try and figure out which notes came from which BB. It looks to me that all of the notes are similar (most likely from the same person - BB2) except BB to LS 6. This note is a different style and is very similar to the LS to BB 1. If you look closely at the writing the handwriting is also different in this one (note the uppercase B). That makes me think that BB to LS 6 is actually a note from BB1 that was written when she was younger (aged 10 according to the note). I agree. It's the only note we have from BB1. If she is actually 10 when writing it then it makes it highly unlikely that she is the Bauds mom. At the time of that note her last name is already Baudelaire. Which means that when she got married her last name would change. Even if she did not change her last name, we know that the Bertrand's (the Baud's dad's) last name is Bauderlaire as well. So either she married a relative (gross), she married someone who coincidentally had the same uncommon last name, or she is not the mom. No...at the time she only signs with B. Lemony, or whomever organized the file, only later added the "BB to LS", which doesn't necissarily mean that her last name was Baudelaire at the time...it leaves things ambiguous, like so many other things Snicket does. And we're guessing she grew up and had the children at a later time. I also have a hard time accepting that BB2 is the Baud's sibling because that feels like another blow to the kids who have already suffered a lot. It would probably be hard for them to accept that their parents (who they thought were so good and honest) never told them that they had another sibling. I would think it more likely that BB1 is their aunt and BB2 is her daughter, their cousin. Since BB1 is dead, that would still make BB2 and orphan. If the Baud's are her only living relatives than that would make them very important to her. ...well, they never mentioned that they were part of a secret and noble organisation that did its best to keep the world quiet, nor that they had a part in the murder of Olaf's parents. I'm quite sure there is a lot that they kept from their children, an extra sibling being not such a big deal. Or perhaps they lost the kid at an early age, and it was found by some orphanage or foster parents or something like that. Perhaps they gave the child up for adoption, so as to put it outside of the peril associated with VFD. There are many possible explanations. |
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Post by maralenenok on Sept 7, 2006 10:16:21 GMT -5
Ok, second of all, Beatrice 1 is the Baudelaire mother, and she is the one who Lemony loved, and who rejected him. The only letter we have from HER is the last, the one in which she wants to meet him, and is 10 years old. Well, I'm not sure about that. The B inital is different (though if you look at BB to LS #4, that B is slightly different from her other Bs, too), but in all other respects the handwriting looks almost identical. Look at the words "root beer float" in BB to LS #6 and BB to LS #3 in particular. On the other hand, the similarity in the handwriting could be explained by it being the correct way to write cursive. And on Zaphod's third hand, in that last note she doesn't address him as Sir, and also mentions his friends. I doubt Lemony would just be hanging out with his friends if that note was written during the ASOUE timeline. No...at the time she only signs with B. Lemony, or whomever organized the file, only later added the "BB to LS", which doesn't necissarily mean that her last name was Baudelaire at the time... Actually, that card has the words "Beatrice Baudelaire" on the front. So, anyway, not sure what I'm arguing here, except that the authorship of the last note is ambiguous. |
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Post by orphansrgreat on Sept 7, 2006 11:05:26 GMT -5
My turn! So the story, I got home from school and my mum (mom) has got it for me! I go strait to my room and read all the letters and examine the posters. I am shocked!  I think that Beatrice is another Baudelaire sibling! But the biggest thing I can say is, IS SHE VIOLETS TWIN? I'm so glad I've got that out!  But it might be possible, if they were separated a birth. When lemony writes to the older Beatrice (mum or mom) he rambles on about having a healthy girl boy or even twins! She just might be violets twin. I also think that she will appear in the end. As PJ said, i would be pointless bringing her into the story if she never appears. I feel shocked still! |
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Post by RockSunner on Sept 7, 2006 13:59:05 GMT -5
I agree. It's the only note we have from BB1. I can't agree with this theory. The BB to LS #6 card can't be accepted at face value, IMHOP, because it copies LS to BB #1 too closely. Just like the other Beatrice 2 letters, it is filled with (mocking?) references to the older material. "I am sorry I embarrassed you in front of your friends. I only wanted to talk to you.," is a straight quote. Lemony (at age 11) probably tried to speak to Beatrice in front of her friends, and she was embarrassed to be spoken to by a nerdish boy. Did the writer of #6 try to talk to Lemony in front of his friends, too? I doubt it. Lemony's note asks Beatrice 1 for a first date. It doesn't make sense that Beatrice 1 also asked for a first date this way. "I will be the ten-year old girl..." vs. "I will be the eleven-year-old boy..." is also too close not to be a copy.. If Lemony looked in the corner, would he see a ten-year-old girl or not? I think not; it's her way of saying "I'm one step behind you." The address on the card is "The Rhetorical Building, 14th Floor." Lemony's card is for a "Student of Rhetoric." His office is on the thirteenth floor (BB to LS #2) and she took an office above his (BB to LS #5). In summary, I think this letter is from Beatrice 2, and it doesn't reveal as much about her as people think it does. |
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Post by Gigi on Sept 7, 2006 14:27:56 GMT -5
I also think that the final note is from Beatrice 2, not Beatrice 1.
If it were from Beatrice 1, that would make her 10 and Lemony 11. Why would she date the letter "Cocktail Time"? Children don't have cocktails, but she may realize that adults do and date it like that.
It makes sense that it is from Beatrice 2 when she says "I'm sorry I embarrassed you in front of your friends" because if he was out with his adult friends and a child came up to talk to him, he very well could be embarassed.
Also, in Lemony's last letter to his editor, he talks about putting the letters in order. Since the note was delivered to him, he very well would have known where it should go in order. He wouldn't have put it in the wrong order by mistake.
And as for the note being too much like LS to BB #1, if Beatrice 2 is Beatrice 1's daughter, it is completely possible that Beatrice 1 saved all those letters from LS and Beatrice 2 found them one day and copied the style. If he recognized that style, it could be sort of a clue to LS as to her identity.
I don't think any of the letters written by Beatrice are from Beatrice 1.
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Post by s on Sept 7, 2006 15:22:46 GMT -5
Okay, finished reading this.
Oh, Gigi, on the CD were Scream and Run Away, Walking My Gargoyle, and Crows. Which book does "Walking My Gargoyle" go with? It didn't really seem to pertain to any of them.
RockSunner, I quite agree. I also thought it from Beatrice 2.
The response to #9 was indeed beautiful.
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But it might be possible, if they were separated a birth. When lemony writes to the older Beatrice (mum or mom) he rambles on about having a healthy girl boy or even twins! She just might be violets twin. I also think that she will appear in the end. As PJ said, i would be pointless bringing her into the story if she never appears. 
