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Post by Hermedy on Feb 22, 2009 16:00:36 GMT -5
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Post by Dante on Feb 23, 2009 3:42:19 GMT -5
We know the ages of barely anyone in aSoUE. Okay, let me see:
Uncle Monty: 61 - I don't think he's that old. I'd put him in his 40s or 50s. He's evidently old enough that if he was going to start a family, he would have already, but he's not too old to be off larking about around the world with reptiles. And okay, 61 isn't too old for that. But I definitely see him as more about 40 or 50 - a bit older than the Baudelaire parents, I'd guess.
Josephine Anwhistle: 55 - no way is Josephine younger than Uncle Monty. I'd say she's a candidate for being in her 60s. A sprightly sixty-year-old, sure, but that's all that coastal air and exercise. Ike might've been in his 70s; we know that Gregor Anwhistle was extremely old, so Ike should be pretty old, too.
Sir: 55, born 1873; Charles: 31, born 1897 - wow, someone's been writing serious fanfiction here. I'm not even going to start on this birth-dates. I can see Charles as being in his late 30s, but I don't get the impression that Sir's all that old, for some reason... I'd put him in his 40s. Charles seems too good a friend (or should I say "friend") to Sir to be too distant from him in age; he seems too familiar. Although comparisons to Mr. Burns and Smithers would not be far off the mark...
Incidentally, two years between TMM and TPP? Patently false. There's just no way you could get that figure.
Nero: 59 - again, I see him as a younger man. Not that much younger. Early 50s, late 40s... I mean, he's like a big kid, really, with his candy fixation and general spoiled-brat behaviour. So I can't see him as being too old. And if he were too old, his braided hair from TPP would start looking a little implausible. I'm going to say he's in his late 40s but thinks he's still cool.
Jerome: 32 - yeah, alright. This I can imagine, as I can really see Jerome as quite a young man. There's something very alive about him. That said, he must have been around the same age as Beatrice, so that might well put him into his 40s. I'm glad Esmé's age isn't down there, as that's a whole barrel of worms - she seems 30s or 40s, but she was at school with Fernald's mother, which'd make her more like her 50s and 60s. I can see her appeal as fading, much like Olaf's, but I wouldn't put her later than her 40s, really.
Hector: 26 - no way. This is a man who has spent far more time than that being ground into the dirt by the Village of Fowl Devotees and its elders - and more time than that planning and building his self-sustaining hot air mobile home. And that's not taking into account the fact that he must have been in contact with V.F.D. at some time, as Jacques and Lemony seem to have been familiar with him, according to the U.A. I'd say 30s. 32, maybe. I envision Charles, Jerome and Hector as being around the same age, on the grounds that they're pretty much the same character cut-and-pasted.
Hal: 81 - no complaints here. Hal's old, but not too old. I wouldn't put him in his 90s, not plausibly, but in his 80s is fine. Some people posit him as a third Anwhistle sibling, and he's got the age for it.
Olivia: 32 - I see her as more late 30s, early 40s... it also seems she must have been a contemporary of the Snickets, and therefore of the Baudelaires, etc. So however old they are, she's about the same. The real question is when she first fell in love with Count Olaf.
Bruce: 40 - I have no problem with this. Sounds exactly right. He's head of publicity, I think, for the Herpetological Society (oh, director of marketing, the page says), and also head of a division of scouts. I think 40 is just the right sort of age.
Captain Widdershins: 66 - nonononono. Not his 60s. 50s at the latest... late 40s at the earliest. The right sort of age to have married Fernald's mother, which would at first glance probably put him in his 60s, sure, but TGG would put Fernald in his early 30s at the very oldest, so I think 40s or 50s is more appropriate. I don't see his hair as greying yet. He's horribly unfit, but a very vibrant personality.
Dewey (and by extension, Frank and Ernest): 34 - sure, why not? Goes along with the Snickets and Baudelaires and so forth.
Wait, what the Hell. Frank and Ernest, 39? What part of the word "triplets" did the author not understand?
Ishmael - thankfully not listed, but 60s at the earliest, and with no upper limit. Physically he's in good condition, but island life seems to be pretty good. For reasons I no longer remember, I've been prepared to put him at older than 100 at times...
Oh, Count Olaf's not on there, either. Going from the illustrations, and from the "creepy old man" vibe he has going at times, I'd have said late 50s or early 60s, but since he was a contemporary of the Baudelaires and Snickets, the same late 30s or early 40s group would seem to apply - although of course, that was a retcon. I'd say he's in his 40s for the nearest to canon, but age is something you should really not be going near in canon...
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Post by Hermes on Feb 23, 2009 10:44:57 GMT -5
Here's what I think we know for sure. Lemony's engagement to Beatrice was broken more than fifteen years ago - my feeling is that there was quite an interval between the breakup and her marriage to Bertrand, but this might be disputed. (I get this sense from the telegram in TBL; also, we have to fit in Beatrice's hearing that Lemony was dead.) Lemony had left school at the time of his engagement to Beatrice, so was presumably over 18. So, perhaps he is 36 or so now. Jacques and Kit are older than Lemony (but Kit is still young enough to have a child). The Denouements are the same age as Kit. Olaf is close enough to Lemony in age to have been in the same class at school. Sir: 55, born 1873; Charles: 31, born 1897 - wow, someone's been writing serious fanfiction here. I'm not even going to start on this birth-dates. I can see Charles as being in his late 30s, but I don't get the impression that Sir's all that old, for some reason... I'd put him in his 40s. Charles seems too good a friend (or should I say "friend") to Sir to be too distant from him in age; he seems too familiar. Although comparisons to Mr. Burns and Smithers would not be far off the mark... We know that Sir and Charles were already together when Lemony wrote his 'I love you' letter to Beatrice. That probably makes Charles a bit older than 31 - late thirties seems fair. He climbed a mountain with Beatrice twenty years ago - I think it's a bit odd to imagine this happening when he was twelve, though one can't be sure. Late thirties again, I suspect. Are we sure she is telling the truth about that? I agree with all this - except that if by 'in contact with VFD' you mean he actually knew about the organisation, I don't think that has to be true; Jerome was a friend of some members without knowing about it, and it seems likely that Charles was as well. A bit older, I would think - see above. On the 'dates of death'; they seem to be assuming they all died in the fire. As for Widdershins, I suppose they are taking his swallowing by the Great Unknown as his 'death'; while it may be similar in practical effect, this rather fails to comprehend the meaning of 'unknown'. |
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Post by Dante on Feb 23, 2009 13:02:47 GMT -5
General thoughts on your thoughts, hermes: Lemony's engagement to Beatrice was broken more than fifteen years ago - my feeling is that there was quite an interval between the breakup and her marriage to Bertrand, but this might be disputed. (I get this sense from the telegram in TBL; also, we have to fit in Beatrice's hearing that Lemony was dead.) Hmm... tricky. As you say, a lot of it might be disputed, especially since the masked ball (which also has a fifteen-year reference) is a mess anyway. I generally put Bertrand and Beatrice hearing about Lemony's death as occuring while they're on the island - I suggest that his obituary washed up on the island's shores. But how long there was between Lemony and Beatrice breaking up, and her and Bertrand winding up on an island, is up in the air. I wouldn't want it to only be a short time, or else Beatrice and Bertrand's relationship (particularly after it turns out Lemony is both alive and innocent) comes across as being somewhat shallow, and the last thing we want is for Lemony to have even more reasons to be miserable. Judging from a recalled conversation in The End, things had cooled between Beatrice and Lemony, if she was back to calling him "Mr. Snicket." Incidentally, I tend, perhaps understandably, to pin Lemony as being the same age as Daniel Handler, who is and was in his 30s throughout the publication of aSoUE. (Or was he only 29 when TBB and TRR came out? I think he must have been.) For reference, an old calendar (I forget which - the earliest one, I assume, which I think was 2004) and the disputed "family tree" in the U.A. are taken as implying that Jacques and Kit are twins. I don't know if you already knew this, but others might not. Going from Chapter One of the U.A., and their general presentation, I'd only put them a couple of years above Lemony in age, although there's also some Dewey-schism rearrangement going on there to account for that (the schism apparently occurred when Kit and Dewey were four, V.F.D. stopped tattooing volunteers after the schism - but we don't know how long after - and all three Snickets have the tattoo). Which, judging from the Prufrock experience, doesn't have to be exactly the same age, but certainly I wouldn't expect them to be... not five years apart. Three would be pushing it. Certainly, I don't think "old man Olaf" is tenable any more, but Helquist's illustrations capture the right spirit, so let's say he's aged badly. Fits in with the sleaziness. And that Nero already loved the violin. I don't know if I'd necessarily take the TBL allusions as being canonical or reader in-jokes, as I'm not even sure how Beatrice and Lemony would be aware of some of these individuals. But I'm just raising a general issue here, since I'm perfectly willing to take exactly the same reference as being canonical proof that Sir/Charles is intentional on Handler's part. At least one mountain-climbing expedition took place shortly after BB to LS #2, and for some reason my mind associates that with an age of roughly fourteen - at any rate, he hadn't yet left the school to work at The Daily Punctilio, but he was older than eleven. I peg Jerome as a member of an early incarnation of the Snow Scouts for this purpose. In addition, I wouldn't feel bound to interpret "twenty years ago" as meaning " exactly twenty years ago," but that's more for convenience's sake. I'm working from emotional response as much as, or more than, canonical evidence here; as has been discussed, the aSoUE timeline is not inflexible. No, but I like it, it rings true to me, and character backstory is thin on the ground. I'll take what I can get. I have no real opinion on whether Hector knew about V.F.D. or not. Probably not - much like Charles and Jerome, as you note; I suspect if Hector was in V.F.D., he'd be more confident and less tied-down to the Village of Fowl Devotees. Lemony and Jacques stayed at Caligari Carnival once; perhaps they stayed at the Village of Fowl Devotees along the way, and met Hector there. It's also far from implausible that that's the source of the organisation's trained crows, but I don't particularly want to work out how they arrange that. Secretly, one imagines. To lazy fans, ambiguous death = genuine death. No original thought allowed, and " When there is no way of knowing, one can only imagine" be damned! |
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Post by Hermes on Feb 23, 2009 13:54:26 GMT -5
General thoughts on your thoughts, hermes: Lemony's engagement to Beatrice was broken more than fifteen years ago - my feeling is that there was quite an interval between the breakup and her marriage to Bertrand, but this might be disputed. (I get this sense from the telegram in TBL; also, we have to fit in Beatrice's hearing that Lemony was dead.) Hmm... tricky. As you say, a lot of it might be disputed, especially since the masked ball (which also has a fifteen-year reference) is a mess anyway. I generally put Bertrand and Beatrice hearing about Lemony's death as occuring while they're on the island - I suggest that his obituary washed up on the island's shores. But how long there was between Lemony and Beatrice breaking up, and her and Bertrand winding up on an island, is up in the air. I wouldn't want it to only be a short time, or else Beatrice and Bertrand's relationship (particularly after it turns out Lemony is both alive and innocent) comes across as being somewhat shallow, and the last thing we want is for Lemony to have even more reasons to be miserable. Judging from a recalled conversation in The End, things had cooled between Beatrice and Lemony, if she was back to calling him "Mr. Snicket." Well, that it was at least fifteen years is established by Violet's age. As for the masked ball, I have an idea that the telegram in TBL may be a retcon of that - from the original description of the masked ball in TAA you would suppose that it happened fifteen years after the breakup, but this establishes that it happened fifteen years after Lemony's last attempt to communicate with Beatrice, which was later. This sounds fair - on the other hand the pictures of Daniel as a boy in TUA might suggest that he is younger. I have a theory about this, we know that the Denouements were taken on the night of the schism, perhaps because the good side of VFD was warned about the villains' plan to burn their house down. I think the good side might have then rather hurriedly recruited all the children who were on their list, in case their houses, too, should be burnt down - this would include the Snickets, of whom Kit (and Jacques, if he's a twin) would be four years old, and Lemony perhaps two (or perhaps younger, depending which version of the story you believe). This would explain why Lemony was recruited at such an early age - since normally it seems children are taken rather later than that, e.g. eight - and so how his taking became a matter of legend. Of course, since this theory combines evidence from different stages of the story's development, it can't really be what Handler planned, but I think it works quite neatly anyway. (So this would confirm your view - if it happened just after the schism, that would explain why the tattooing hadn't been abandoned.) Well, perhaps Sir really is related to Beatrice. As for Nero, there seems to be some link between Prufrock Prep and VFD, even if a rather remote one. |
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Post by Sora on Feb 23, 2009 19:57:06 GMT -5
Well, that it was at least fifteen years is established by Violet's age. As for the masked ball, I have an idea that the telegram in TBL may be a retcon of that - from the original description of the masked ball in TAA you would suppose that it happened fifteen years after the breakup, but this establishes that it happened fifteen years after Lemony's last attempt to communicate with Beatrice, which was later. Agreed on the idea that there was a gap between the breakup and the end of communications. However I feel that we must push the timeline further back in light of TBB:RE notes. Lemony states, in a reference to the Baudelaires finding the charred remains of their dining table - that he had spent much time there observing maps among other things. This suggests that after the cooling down of Beatrice and Lemony's relationship - occurring after the masked mall incident - there was a gap of at least two years between then and the fire. I think this would push Lemony and Beatrice's ages forward to early 40's as opposed to very late 30's. This is where the story just gets muddled in itself. If your theory is true - which I can completely believe - it would explain why uneducated and clearly anti-literature members like Esme Squalor would be selected for membership - not much time was spent looking into their histories. However how can a woman who thus is the same age as Lemony, Olaf, etcetera, be in Fernald's mother's class at school? Did Fernald's mother have him when she was 15? That would put Esme at 45, the oldest age I could possibly accept for her. Mrs. K clearly used Prufrock Prep as a place for recruitment (whoever she was - we never really established if she was Kit or what - or who the twins were.) so I'd say that VFD had some connection too it. As for how Beatrice and Lemony would be aware of such individuals - well we know that Jacques had some connection to Paltryville and the factories there, and that the newspapers were VFD related in some manner or another. So they easily could have met Charles and Sir. Why they would refer to them with initials when they were not VFD members is odd - but that basically sums up VFD in a nutshell , doesn't it? |
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Post by Hermes on Feb 24, 2009 10:56:20 GMT -5
Agreed on the idea that there was a gap between the breakup and the end of communications. However I feel that we must push the timeline further back in light of TBB:RE notes. Lemony states, in a reference to the Baudelaires finding the charred remains of their dining table - that he had spent much time there observing maps among other things. This suggests that after the cooling down of Beatrice and Lemony's relationship - occurring after the masked mall incident - there was a gap of at least two years between then and the fire. I think this would push Lemony and Beatrice's ages forward to early 40's as opposed to very late 30's. I'm not sure I follow this. We're talking, aren't we, about the gap between the breakup and Beatrice's marriage to Bertrand, not between the masked ball and the fire, both of which were much later? Now, a two-year gap seems very plausible to me - I can't imagine Beatrice saying 'Oh! My fiance has left the country, and may possibly be a traitor! I will immediately marry someone else!' But I think it unlikely that Lemony and Beatrice were in regular contact during that time - he does seem to have been out of the country at the start of it, at least; and the telegram reads to me as if she has not heard from him for some time; only an emergency is prompting him to write.. When he visited the Baudelaire table is hard to say, but quite possibly earlier, while he and Beatrice were still together, if they were friends of Bertrand's then, as they might have been. Well, it would be an interesting idea for fanfic; but I doubt it's what Handler intended. However, as I said earlier to Dante, I'm not convinced Esme really did know Fernald's mother. In any case, do we know Esme was a member of VFD? Might her connection with it not have been entirely through Olaf? I think Ms. K. is Kit - the name Kit is never used in TUA, but it's made clear that K. is Lemony's sister. There was also a VFD librarian working there, and someone there did a report for VFD on sleep deprivation. As I said in an earlier thread, I don't think it can be a VFD insititution, as Nero seems not to know about VFD, but it's certainly an institution in which the organisation takes an interest. How very true. |
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Post by Dante on Feb 24, 2009 11:46:12 GMT -5
However, as I said earlier to Dante, I'm not convinced Esme really did know Fernald's mother. Let me make it quite clear that I choose to accept this as fact in spite of the obvious difficulties it introduces regarding age. I am happy to believe that the timeline of the series is vague enough as a whole for this to be acceptable. This matter has never been entirely clear. She's familiar with volunteers, and volunteers are familiar with her; she knows all about the organisation and many of its secrets, and has visited its headquarters. It seems unlikely, however, that she has the tattoo, and there are no references to her hanging around the schools of volunteer youth... She's a woman with a deep interest in fashion, and in cliques. Familiarity with Olaf, and contact with friends and colleagues of Olaf, perhaps enabled her to worm her way in to a sufficient extent to be enlightened as to the nature of the organisation. Or alternatively, Olaf took her on as a sort of protégé - he was her acting teacher, although I don't care to speculate on age differences between them. In this capacity, she was introduced to V.F.D. and its mechanisms. |
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Post by Sora on Feb 25, 2009 0:19:27 GMT -5
However, as I said earlier to Dante, I'm not convinced Esme really did know Fernald's mother. Let me make it quite clear that I choose to accept this as fact in spite of the obvious difficulties it introduces regarding age. I am happy to believe that the timeline of the series is vague enough as a whole for this to be acceptable. This matter has never been entirely clear. She's familiar with volunteers, and volunteers are familiar with her; she knows all about the organisation and many of its secrets, and has visited its headquarters. It seems unlikely, however, that she has the tattoo, and there are no references to her hanging around the schools of volunteer youth... She's a woman with a deep interest in fashion, and in cliques. Familiarity with Olaf, and contact with friends and colleagues of Olaf, perhaps enabled her to worm her way in to a sufficient extent to be enlightened as to the nature of the organisation. Or alternatively, Olaf took her on as a sort of protégé - he was her acting teacher, although I don't care to speculate on age differences between them. In this capacity, she was introduced to V.F.D. and its mechanisms. I believe - and I'll need my copy of TSS for this... Here we go: pg 278 Esme talking to the Baudelaires when they try and trap her in the hole at Mortmain Mountains: " Many years ago, I was supposed to waste my entire summer reading Annd Karenia, but I knew taht silly book would never help me, so I threw it in the fireplace!" This suggests to me - since Anna Karenia was vital to the VFD door - that Esme was a young volunteer for the organization. |
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Post by Hermes on Feb 28, 2009 14:12:08 GMT -5
Here we go: pg 278 Esme talking to the Baudelaires when they try and trap her in the hole at Mortmain Mountains: " Many years ago, I was supposed to waste my entire summer reading Annd Karenia, but I knew taht silly book would never help me, so I threw it in the fireplace!" This suggests to me - since Anna Karenia was vital to the VFD door - that Esme was a young volunteer for the organization. Yes, that certainly looks convincing. |
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Post by Mijahu on Mar 2, 2009 2:39:22 GMT -5
I would say so too. I always imagined Esme as much younger than Olaf, at least by ten years.
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Post by Hermes on Mar 2, 2009 10:36:31 GMT -5
I would say ten years is too much. We know that Esme took part in the performance of One Last Warning to Those Who Stand in my Way which led to Lemony being sacked - which itself happened at the time he was engaged to Beatrice, so not too long after he left school. Assuming Esme has herself left school at the time, she cannot be that much younger than Lemony, Beatrice, Olaf etc.
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Post by Dante on Mar 2, 2009 12:13:00 GMT -5
It's because we're so used to thinking of Olaf as a dirty old man, balding and wheezy. I don't think we've any problem with thinking of Esmé as the same ages as the Snickets, Baudelaires etc. It's just thinking of her as the same age as Olaf which feels all wrong (in a different way to how Olaf as much older than Esmé is meant to feel all wrong).
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Post by Hermes on Mar 2, 2009 12:46:43 GMT -5
Fair enough. So I guess we have to say that Esme is actually the same age as Olaf, or just a couple of year younger; but Olaf is prematurely aged, so that he seems much the older partner.
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Post by Mijahu on Mar 2, 2009 23:39:21 GMT -5
That's true, the illustrations probably portray Olaf as older than he really is. Now that I think about it, I kind of picture him as this epitome of evil that may be young, but he seems older because he's so corrupt. Not that being old is a bad thing, of course, just that his evilness has sort of...blech I'm at a loss for words. You know what I mean, though?
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