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Post by cwm on Aug 24, 2009 11:43:39 GMT -5
I disagree with the former part - he could have been getting information from two sources just to be absolutely certain, or from one when the other was inaccessible or didn't have the information.
And I don't get the impression that they've not met recently in TSS. Maybe they're just SO scary that whenever you meet them again you're scared of them all over again, even if they only leave the room for five minutes.
This is even sillier when you think about it. In the book, it reads as:
Klaus: "page 581".
Olaf: "that's the five hundred and eighty-first page."
If you think about how they'd actually say it, Klaus would pronounce it as "page five-eight-one" or, better still, "page five hundred and eighty one", making Olaf's interjection even more unnecessary.
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Post by Hermes on Aug 24, 2009 13:27:17 GMT -5
The site seems to have eaten my comments on Ch. 13; I'll come back to them tomorrow. But I wanted to say one more thing about Ch. 12; at the end O seems to have reached a new level of villainy, in trying to release the mycelium and kill everyone, even his allies. In TSS, when the sinsiter duo proposed to burn the homes of everyone they kidnapped or recruited, O and E were anxious to point out that this was to get their fortunes - not just to do evil for the sake of it. But now he's releasing death and destruction without a fortune in sight. This is momentary, though - we will see more humanity from him later.
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Post by cwm on Aug 24, 2009 16:10:43 GMT -5
How far would the Medusoid Mycelium spread? I think somebody would point it out if there was a risk of it causing a pandemic across the planet - they do so in The End. Maybe they think it'll just... what? Grow itself out?
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Post by Hermes on Aug 25, 2009 11:28:08 GMT -5
How far would the Medusoid Mycelium spread? I think somebody would point it out if there was a risk of it causing a pandemic across the planet - they do so in The End. Maybe they think it'll just... what? Grow itself out? Good question. Well, it's the same mycelium, so if it could spread across the planet in TE, presumably it could do so in TPP (though of course it doesn't in fact do so in TE). I think it's clear that, however far it does or doesn't spread, the mycelium spreads quickly; people are getting tickles in their throats in TE immediately after it is released. Chapter 13. Why the plan to burn down the hotel? What Sunny actually says in justification is 'signal'; it's a signal to volunteers to stay away. This is why I think it's an important question how many volunteers haven't turned up yet; risking the lives of, perhaps, hundreds of people just to save Kit and friends seems clearly unjustified. But I take it that there are many others who would not have arrived till Thursday - e.g. the rope-climbing instructor - and indeed, perhaps Lemony and the woman in his trunk woul have returned. There is another possible reason for the fire - it prevents the release of the Medusoid Mycelium, which is harder to escape from than fire. As I said above, MM seems to spread very quickly; also it's easy to know when you have escaped from fire - you just have to get clear of the building - and we can tell what to do to stop it spreading - pull down buildings and structures that might carry it - none of which is true with the mycelium. When I first read the passage I assumed this was what S had in mind. But while this is certainly her aim with the 'Preludio' plan, it seemingly isn't her reason for starting the fire. 'Call the fire department!' 'Which one?' Although this doesn't really make sense, it is a further clue to the meaning of VFD. 'Charles and Sir, who were holding hands so as not to lose one another'. Aaah! I think the penny should have dropped by now. Dante has pointed out the possible significance of a man calling for Bruce, so I won't mention it. I had thought that the person who kept mentioning his/her mother might be the pimply man from TCC, who also kept referring to his mother; but here it's revealed as a woman. 'Each story has its own story ... and many of the stories' stoires are unfathomable to me, even after all these lonely years and all this lonely research.' Once again the theme that we cannot know everything is emphasised. It's interesting, though, who is not mentioned here; possibly there are a few people whose fate Lemony does know. - Mr Poe; probably died, since the last we see of him he's insisiting on standing his ground. If so it's a good end to his life - a bit like Rufus Scrymgeour's. - Hal; I still think he lived, though no one agrees with me. - Esme; must have lived if it was her backgammon table L later hid under; and he seems to think she's alive in TBL. - Carmelita; no idea. Jerome might seem at first sight to be absent, but is covered by 'an expert on injustice'. 'The judges of the high court probably refers only to the sinister duo, since I think Justice Strauss almost certainly died, being on the roof when the building began to collapse; again, a fine death. I had taken it that 'the tilted roof' referred to the effects of the shaking building, rather than to its normal state. '"And Fiona". Klaus added.' Aaah! Though it's not at all clear that she would be with Kit, and if she is Fernald should be too. 'just as Dewey Denoument had sunk into the pond... leaving the woman he loved pregnant and distraught'. This is, I think, the most explicit reference we get to Dewey/Kit; while it doesn't say in so many words that he is the father of her child, it makes it fairly clear. *Takes deep breath.* That was quite a challenge. TBL is short, and TE, though long, is I think less complex, so I guess we are over the hump. |
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Post by cwm on Aug 25, 2009 12:27:24 GMT -5
Justice Strauss notes that the fire prevented Olaf releasing the Mycelium, as indeed does Olaf himself earlier... wait, I just checked. Right after the Bauds press all the buttons:
"What are you doing?" Olaf shrieked. "I'll never reach the Medusoid Mycelium in time to poison everyone!"
"We'll be able to warn as many people as possible that the building is on fire!" cried Justice Strauss.
"Dual purpose," Sunny said [...]
That reads to me like Sunny already knew that the fire would stop Olaf from releasing the mycelium, which is arguably much less desirable.
He just makes a note in the margin - 'E?'. Could easily be another E, and in any case he doesn't know whether she's dead or alive. Unless you're referring to something else which I missed, I don't think this - assuming it even is Lemony writing the note - is evidence that Lemony thinks Esme survived.
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Post by Hermes on Aug 25, 2009 13:17:05 GMT -5
Justice Strauss notes that the fire prevented Olaf releasing the Mycelium, as indeed does Olaf himself earlier... wait, I just checked. Right after the Bauds press all the buttons: "What are you doing?" Olaf shrieked. "I'll never reach the Medusoid Mycelium in time to poison everyone!"
"We'll be able to warn as many people as possible that the building is on fire!" cried Justice Strauss.
"Dual purpose," Sunny said [...]That reads to me like Sunny already knew that the fire would stop Olaf from releasing the mycelium, which is arguably much less desirable. I think 'dual purpose' refers to the Preludio plan - pressing all the buttons - it both slows O down, stopping him releasing the mycelium, and means they stop at every floor, giving them a chance to warn people about the fire. Likewise Strauss's 'we stopped Olaf from releasing the fungus' can refer to the Preludio plan. Of course, it's true that the slowing down wouldn't be relevant without the fire - if there were no fire, O could have released the mycelium half an hour later, and still killed everyone. Still, I'd like a more explicit indication that that's what Sunny had in mind. Well, it means he doesn't know she's dead (unless he's thinking of another villainess with the initial E, which I find unlikely). If you join that with my (speculative, I admit) thought that the people not mentioned in this passage are people whose fates he knows, that suggests she is alive. |
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Post by cwm on Aug 25, 2009 15:26:12 GMT -5
Yes, but Sunny seems to have already known about this plan, since she comes back with 'Dual purpose' straight away. I think she was formulating that entire plan to burn down the hotel and then press the buttons in the lift to stop Olaf releasing the mycelium throughout the entire basement scene - she always knew she'd be able to warn people about the fire when she said to burn the hotel down.
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Post by Hermes on Aug 28, 2009 8:12:59 GMT -5
By the way, one notable thing about this book is that it also puts Lemony in a morally ambiguous position. Up to now he's been defending the Baudelaires and exposing Olaf's villainy. Now, by exposing a crime committed by the Baudelaires, he may be endangering them, if they are still alive. (I mean burning down the hotel, not killing Dewey - though given the way courts work in the ASOUE world, they might be found guilty of that as well.)
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Post by Dante on Aug 29, 2009 3:22:02 GMT -5
Very interesting, both of you. I don't think there's anything more I wish to add, although that's partly because I'm pretty tired right now. I'll probably start the TBL reread tomorrow, unless anyone has any last-minute objections.
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Post by Dante on Sept 16, 2009 10:33:56 GMT -5
I just read something interesting which I thought was relevant to Chapter Eleven.
Bakhtin argues that the trial of the hero in conventional romance narrative involves the hero affirming his identity against alien forces. The identity he affirms is pre-existent to the moment of trial itself; hence his heroism consists of the strength to resist change. The reaffirmed self of romance narrative is thus ahistorical, or more exactly anti-historical.
What interested me was that the character who immediately came to mind in the role of this passage's "hero" was Count Olaf.
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Post by colette on Jan 12, 2014 12:05:45 GMT -5
Here is what I can say(chapters 1-3). I probably add something later. TPP is one of my favorite books in the series. It is full of mystery and darkness. So I will write about it now. While the theatre starts with cloakroom, the book strarts with cover. I am not a fan of Brett Helquist but the TPP cover is the real masterpiece (by the way, TPP is the only book in series which has a cover by Helquist in Russian edition). It is definitely the best work by Helquist. The tall blonde woman who wears blue coat and golden glasses is very beautiful. It is definitely the most beautiful character Helquist had ever drawn. I believe she is Kit. The wrinkled gentleman with a pipe looks like Fernald but Fernald wasn’t in the hotel. I don’t think he is Sir (Sir smokes cigarettes). Also I don’t believe this is Jerome(the man looks too severe) or Kevin( he looks too manly to be a washerman). I guess he could be Lemony Snicket himself. An evil-looking woman in pink coat and hat can be a villain. But she is not ( Esme wore a bikini), not Mrs Bass( Mrs Bass was wearing a mask and white wig), not Colette( Colette should be slimmer and hasn’t got enough money for such coat). I guess it is Mrs Morrow or nobody exact. A man in yellow can be Sir, Charles or Hugo. It was also nice to see the person with dark complexion. Non-Caucasian characters make ASoUE more interesting. Chapter 1 My favorite phrase in the chapter may be: "A great man once said that right, temporarily defeated, is stronger than evil triumphant." «The Baudelaires turned to look out of the rear window, and saw another taxi driving behind them at quite a distance. Like Kit Snicket's automobile, the windows of this taxi were tinted, and so the children could not see anything through the darkened glass.» Is it the taxy which was mentioned at the beginning of Chapter 7? The description of «La forza del Destino» opera is great. Chapter 2 «Alongside the bread was an enormous basket containing all sorts of pastries, from muffins to donuts to custard eclairs, which happened to be a favorite of Klaus's.» Eclairs is my favorit desert, too. «Bookstores and banks, restaurants and stationery stores, cafes and laundromats, opium dens and geodesic domes- people of nobility and integrity could gather nearly everywhere.» Opium dens are not noble places. It is Snicket's humour. «There was a large scientific laboratory, but the volunteer who owned the place was murdered.» Isn't that volunteer Uncle Monty? «There was an enormous cavern, but a treacherous team of realtors claimed it for themselves.» The cave from TWW? But Aunt Josephine had been afraid of realtors before she learnt about this. Or realtors claimed more than one cave? «I've scarcely looked at these maps, poems, and blueprints that Charles sent me, or chosen wallpaper for the baby's room. Wait one moment, Baudelaires. I'll find it.» I don't remember any random namesakes in ASoUE. So I guess the Charles Kit mentioned is the Charles from TMM. Certainly sending maps doesn't mean anything but I like the version that Kit is Charles's secret dream and Charles loves Kit. «She handed it to Klaus, who unrolled the paper and squinted at it behind his glasses. "'J. S. has checked in,'" he read out loud, "'and requested tea with sugar. My brother sends his regards. Sincerely, Frank.'"» When I first read this passage, I didn't knew Dewey exists so I thought that Frank still trust Ernest and doesn't want to believe in his betrayal. It looked like trying to escape from the truth. Now I realize that Frank meant Dewey but the sense that Frank believes( or just wants to believe) Ernest didn't leave me. « "It could be Olaf," Kit agreed, "but there are plenty of villains who are all too eager to be impostors. Those two villains in the mountains, for example." "Or Hugo, Colette, or Kevin," Klaus said, naming three people the children had met at Caligari Carnival, who had since joined Olaf's troupe and had agreed to meet him at the hotel.» Foreshadowing the «noble judges», «attendant», «chemist» and «washerwoman». «"The same way you always do," Kit said. "When you first met Count Olaf, did you have any doubt he was a treacherous person? When you first met the Quagmire triplets, did you have any doubt that they were charming and resourceful? You'll have to observe everyone you see, and make such judgements yourselves. You Baudelaires will become flaneurs."» Kit definetely exaggerates. When Bauds first saw Count Olaf they understood that he was mean messy alcoholic but they understood Olaf is evil only when he tried to marry Violet. Quagmires also didn't show themselves like noble volunteers when Bauds first met them. They just looked like normal kind kids. Kit, don't forget about Esme, Fiona, carnival freaks and other people who seemed to be better than they really were. Chapter 3 «"You must be Ernest," Violet tried. "Or Frank," Sunny said.» Sunny, shut up! In conclusion I want to say that I guess the first manager was Ernest and second one was Frank. And I feel sorry we didn't see Portugese guests. Here is what I can say(chapters 1-3). I probably add something later. TPP is one of my favorite books in the series. It is full of mystery and darkness. So I will write about it now. While the theatre starts with cloakroom, the book strarts with cover. I am not a fan of Brett Helquist but the TPP cover is the real masterpiece (by the way, TPP is the only book in series which has a cover by Helquist in Russian edition). It is definitely the best work by Helquist. The tall blonde woman who wears blue coat and golden glasses is very beautiful. It is definitely the most beautiful character Helquist had ever drawn. I believe she is Kit. The wrinkled gentleman with a pipe looks like Fernald but Fernald wasn’t in the hotel. I don’t think he is Sir (Sir smokes cigarettes). Also I don’t believe this is Jerome(the man looks too severe) or Kevin( he looks too manly to be a washerman). I guess he could be Lemony Snicket himself. An evil-looking woman in pink coat and hat can be a villain. But she is not ( Esme wore a bikini), not Mrs Bass( Mrs Bass was wearing a mask and white wig), not Colette( Colette should be slimmer and hasn’t got enough money for such coat). I guess it is Mrs Morrow or nobody exact. A man in yellow can be Sir, Charles or Hugo. It was also nice to see the person with dark complexion. Non-Caucasian characters make ASoUE more interesting. Chapter 1 My favorite phrase in the chapter may be: "A great man once said that right, temporarily defeated, is stronger than evil triumphant."[«The Baudelaires turned to look out of the rear window, and saw another taxi driving behind them at quite a distance. Like Kit Snicket's automobile, the windows of this taxi were tinted, and so the children could not see anything through the darkened glass.» Is it the taxy which was mentioned at the beginning of Chapter 7? The description of «La forza del Destino» opera is great. Chapter 2 «Alongside the bread was an enormous basket containing all sorts of pastries, from muffins to donuts to custard eclairs, which happened to be a favorite of Klaus's.» Eclairs is my favorit desert, too. «Bookstores and banks, restaurants and stationery stores, cafes and laundromats, opium dens and geodesic domes- people of nobility and integrity could gather nearly everywhere.» Opium dens are not noble places. It is Snicket's humour. «There was a large scientific laboratory, but the volunteer who owned the place was murdered.» Isn't that volunteer Uncle Monty? «There was an enormous cavern, but a treacherous team of realtors claimed it for themselves.» The cave from TWW? But Aunt Josephine had been afraid of realtors before she learnt about this. Or realtors claimed more than one cave? «I've scarcely looked at these maps, poems, and blueprints that Charles sent me, or chosen wallpaper for the baby's room. Wait one moment, Baudelaires. I'll find it.» I don't remember any random namesakes in ASoUE. So I guess the Charles Kit mentioned is the Charles from TMM. Certainly sending maps doesn't mean anything but I like the version that Kit is Charles's secret dream and Charles loves Kit. «She handed it to Klaus, who unrolled the paper and squinted at it behind his glasses. "'J. S. has checked in,'" he read out loud, "'and requested tea with sugar. My brother sends his regards. Sincerely, Frank.'"» When I first read this passage, I didn't knew Dewey exists so I thought that Frank still trust Ernest and doesn't want to believe in his betrayal. It looked like trying to escape from the truth. Now I realize that Frank meant Dewey but the sense that Frank believes( or just wants to believe) Ernest didn't leave me. « "It could be Olaf," Kit agreed, "but there are plenty of villains who are all too eager to be impostors. Those two villains in the mountains, for example." "Or Hugo, Colette, or Kevin," Klaus said, naming three people the children had met at Caligari Carnival, who had since joined Olaf's troupe and had agreed to meet him at the hotel.» Foreshadowing the «noble judges», «attendant», «chemist» and «washerwoman». «"The same way you always do," Kit said. "When you first met Count Olaf, did you have any doubt he was a treacherous person? When you first met the Quagmire triplets, did you have any doubt that they were charming and resourceful? You'll have to observe everyone you see, and make such judgements yourselves. You Baudelaires will become flaneurs."» Kit definetely exaggerates. When Bauds first saw Count Olaf they understood that he was mean messy alcoholic but they understood Olaf is evil only when he tried to marry Violet. Quagmires also didn't show themselves like noble volunteers when Bauds first met them. They just looked like normal kind kids. Kit, don't forget about Esme, Fiona, carnival freaks and other people who seemed to be better than they really were. Chapter 3 «"You must be Ernest," Violet tried.
"Or Frank," Sunny said.»Sunny, shut up! In conclusion I want to say that I guess the first manager was Ernest and second one was Frank. And I feel sorry we didn't see Portugese guests. |
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Post by Dante on Jan 12, 2014 15:12:23 GMT -5
colette, I'm not sure if there were any alterations between your two posts - I don't think there were, but it looks a lot like you were going for the Edit button and hit Quote instead. I didn't want to make any assumptions, though, so I've simply merged your two posts.
Thank you for contributing your thoughts on the book; I think it is one of the series's best. It's interesting that you mention that Helquist is responsible for TPP's Russian cover, and only TPP's; here in the U.K., Helquist drew new cover art for every book up until TPP, at which point we just got the American art again. I wonder if there was some kind of change in his contract? But more likely I think time constraints were a factor - he didn't have time to do another front cover, especially as the U.K. releases became simultaneous with the U.S. Likewise, perhaps the Russian cover artist was unavailable or unable to finish in time.
It was smart of you to notice the way Chapter Two specifically reminds us about the sinister duo and the freaks, who hadn't been in TGG but who would appear later in TPP - Snicket's books do this quite a lot, take pains to remind us early of something or someone we've met before and which/who is to return later. And I agree that it was pretty foolish of one or the other Baudelaires to keep on interrupting with the name of the second manager after introducing the first name - if they'd just said "Frank" or "Ernest" rather than both, the manager would have been forced to clarify.
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Post by colette on Jan 18, 2014 8:10:32 GMT -5
Chapters 4-6
Chapter 4
The most boring of these three in my opinion.
"Ten sunbathers, their bare skin coated in thick, sticky lotion, lay without moving on shiny mats arranged around a heated swimming pool, which was so warm that clouds of steam were floating up from the surface. In a corner was an attendant, his eyes covered in green sunglasses and his body covered in a long, baggy robe. "
No, I didn't recognize Hugo when I had been reading TPP at first.
The pirate costume is awesome for Carmelita.
'"No matter what the guests are wearing," Esme said with a smirk, "they won't be able to see the surprises we have in store for them."
I suspect the "suprises" is the Medusoid Mycelium as food.
"Esme's silver-coated lips curled thoughtfully. "If I give you a hint," she said, "you'll have to tell me something, too. You're a reporter, so you know all sorts of interesting information. Before I reveal my special hors d'oeuvres for Thursday's cThocktail party, I want you to tell me something about a certain guest at this hotel. He's been lurking around the basement, plotting to spoil our party. His initials are J. S.""
I have no idea... Is it a link to a man in the basement from Chapter 7? But that man was described as ambidextrous. There are two ambidextrous men in whole ASoUE. One of them is Esme's fellow and his name doesn't start with J. The second one has other initials, too.
"Lurking around the basement?" Geraldine repeated. "But J. S. is-"
Jacques Snicket? He was related to DP some way(due to TGG). But Geraldine thinks he is Count Olaf/Count Omar, doesn't she? Or Geraldine used to know Jacques but doesn't know he is dead. Or she meant Jerome?
Chapter 5
In my opinion it is much more interesting than the previous one. Sir and Charles are more interesting characters than Carmelita and Geraldine
"Perhaps if the lumbermill becomes more successful," Charles said, "we could pay our employees with money, instead of just gum and coupons."
Here is a small mistake. They didn't pay with gum. Workers had gum instead of the lunch.
"There's nothing wrong with caring about people," Charles said quietly. "I care about you, Sir. And I care about the Baudelaires. If what J. S. wrote is true, then their parents-"
I seem to be the only person who found nothing weird in this passage. And I agree with Charles. Friends or relatives also carry about each other. And Charles is a such kind man so he can carry even about strangers.
"Oh, all right!" Sir said, and stomped out of the sauna, where a figure stood in a long, white coat and a mask such as surgeons or chemists wear over their noses and mouths.
No, I didn't even notice this chemist when I had been reading TPP. I found this passage about chemist only after I had read Chapter 9.
J.S. from this chapter must be a villain.
Chapter 6
I hoped to see Baudelaires' friends here so I was dissapointed. I have never liked Nero or been interested in him. I like Mr.Remora( but no as much as I like Hector, for example), thought. I liked Mrs Bass in TAA more than TPP. But Hall's appearance was like present for me.
"I'll have ten grams of rice," Mrs. Bass interrupted, "one tenth of a hectogram of shrimp vindaloo, a dekagram of chana aloo masala, one thousand centigrams of tandoori salmon, four samosas with a surface area of ninteen cubic centimeters, five deciliters of mango lassi, and a sada rava dosai that's exactly nineteen centimeters long."
Mrs Bass eats a lot. So does Mr Remora.
"She's here to help," the manager corrected. "She's been using her Vision Furthering Device to watch the skies, and I'm afraid she reports that we will all be eating crow."
It was Justice Strauss definetely.
A taciturn writer, for instance, might produce only one short poem every ten years, which is unlikely to annoy anyone, whereas someone who writes twelve or thirteen books in a relatively short time is likely to find themselves hiding under the coffee table of a notorious villain, holding his breath, hoping nobody at the cocktail party will notice the trembling backgammon set, and wondering, as the inkstain spreads across the carpeting, if certain literary exercises have been entirely worthwhile.
I am sure the coffee table was in the coffee shop mentioned in Chapter 7 and the notorius villain can be Count Olaf.
"No Habla Esperanto," is a reference to international language esperanto.
I didn't notice the washerwoman when first read it.
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Post by Dante on Jan 18, 2014 8:59:45 GMT -5
Chapters 4-6"Esme's silver-coated lips curled thoughtfully. "If I give you a hint," she said, "you'll have to tell me something, too. You're a reporter, so you know all sorts of interesting information. Before I reveal my special hors d'oeuvres for Thursday's cThocktail party, I want you to tell me something about a certain guest at this hotel. He's been lurking around the basement, plotting to spoil our party. His initials are J. S."" I have no idea... Is it a link to a man in the basement from Chapter 7? But that man was described as ambidextrous. There are two ambidextrous men in whole ASoUE. One of them is Esme's fellow and his name doesn't start with J. The second one has other initials, too. "Lurking around the basement?" Geraldine repeated. "But J. S. is-"Jacques Snicket? He was related to DP some way(due to TGG). But Geraldine thinks he is Count Olaf/Count Omar, doesn't she? Or Geraldine used to know Jacques but doesn't know he is dead. Or she meant Jerome? Although we never hear of him being in the basement, I think this must be Jerome. Hence Geraldine's surprise - Esmé's married to Jerome, so why would they be at loggerheads in this way? I think, in this context, meals provided by the employer for which the employees don't have to pay can be constituted as part of their pay. The one who knew something about their parents, who knew the Baudelaires would be arriving by submarine, and who let Charles know? I think it stands a high chance of being Jerome or Justice Strauss again, actually, presuming that one of them was the recipient of Quigley's telegram copied to J.S. near the end of the previous book. |
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