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Post by thedoctororwell on Apr 20, 2010 2:34:26 GMT -5
However I have to say that we shouldn't judge all commonly seen as bad religions as sects, since I am a part of a religion some call a sect which is NOT true. I was thinking about which character could be part of my religion, yet I can't see any that fit. If anyone comes up with an idea as to which character could be a satanist then I'd love to hear it. And please don't judge, it is just a name.
Satanism, from what I know, is not organized per se, so it's indeed not a sect. Generally speaking, at least. Moreover if you count those who assimilate Satan with Pan the definitions of this movement really become blurry, don't they ?
Isadora may be a satanist. ;D Come on, her favorite book is Les Fleurs du Mal ! Baudelaire is a great reference for that movement. I could somehow see Remora and Bass as satanists, for whatever reason, though Bass's love for mathematics and measurements may rather indicate a rationalist. So I'd see her as rather interested in generic esoteric knowledge.
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bumblebee
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Post by bumblebee on Apr 20, 2010 2:36:54 GMT -5
Wow, I agree with the Isadora thing!
As for satanism, we do indeed have our Church of Satan, and the setter of the religion etc. But it is not widely seen as either religion or sect. As for the Baudelaire's, I see them more as Jews.
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Post by Dante on Apr 20, 2010 7:54:36 GMT -5
I should also remind all present that this isn't a board for religious debate. If you want to talk about religion, rather than the characters' religion, you should take that to Disturbing Discussion. "All 'alleged' means is that she was called a virgin..."Oh ! Do you have that interview stored somewhere ?  Antenora found it for me. Here it is. He does cover the same issue elsewhere, though. |
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Post by Hermes on Apr 20, 2010 12:30:05 GMT -5
(By the way, at one point Handler seems deliberately to refer to this stereotype by giving the Baudelaires a distant relative called Fagin. About whom I have a theory...) I'd be interested to hear this! It's quite simple. Fagin's name begins with F. Might he also have given his children names that begin with F? In which case.... (Inspired by a thought of Dante's.) |
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Post by Christmas Chief on Apr 20, 2010 16:09:27 GMT -5
Ah, yes. It's a good thought, and quite plausible; it's also interesting when those in V.F.D. are related more closely that originally thought.
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bumblebee
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Post by bumblebee on Apr 21, 2010 6:09:51 GMT -5
Sorry for the question, but who is Fagin? I must have had missed that character...?
I think that the Quagmire (sp?) triplets are either Jewish or Christian/Catholic. As much as I believe that the series isn't meant to be a display of any particular religion, I find it quite hard to believe that all characters would be of different faith.
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Post by Dante on Apr 21, 2010 7:49:29 GMT -5
Mr. Fagin is a relative of the Baudelaires who Mr. Poe phones in the first chapter of TVV.
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Post by Seymour Glass on Jul 2, 2010 8:40:34 GMT -5
I'm inclined to say that if the Baudelaires are Jewish, there's a presumption (not unbreakable, of course, but worth following in the absence of contrary evidence) that all their relations are Jewish - at least by heritage: in my view this would include Olaf, Monty, Josephine (and the other Anwhistles), Sir and Jerome. (I think Jerome rather than Esme because he volunteers to remain their guardian after she has left him. Though as his wife there's a presumption she'd be Jewish too.) The Snickets are also likely to be Jewish, as, of course, is Lemony's representative. Regarding Olaf as greedy Jew - yes, I see the problem, but I think if a lot of the sympathetic characters are also Jewish it's not too worrying. (By the way, at one point Handler seems deliberately to refer to this stereotype by giving the Baudelaires a distant relative called Fagin. About whom I have a theory...) Agree totally Lulu isn't Wiccan. Either atheist, or belongs to a mainstream religion but, like many people, doesn't follow its precepts closely. The alleged virgin: well, Protestants believe Mary was a virgin too, you know: I can't imagine any real religious group giving a cathedral that name. If we want to make sense of this (though of course it isn't really meant to make sense) I think we will have to say that it doesn't refer to Mary but to a lesser saint whose virginity was disputed, or something. Just because the Baudelaires are Jewish doesn't mean all of their relatives are. Maybe they're really only 1/2 Jewish or 1/4 Jewish. |
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Post by Hermes on Jul 2, 2010 9:49:37 GMT -5
Well, I said a presumption, and not unbreakable. Jews tend to marry other Jews, so if the Baudelaires are Jewish there's quite a high probability their relations will be - decreasing, of course, as the relation gets less close.
A few more guesses at religion, largely based on names:
Jewish: Baudelaires, Snickets, Fagins (Fiona and Fernald), Jerome Squalor (called after J.D. Salinger, who was Jewish).
Catholic: Denouements, Spatses. ('Carmelita' has a Catholic sound to it.)
Presbyterian: Montgomery (of Scottish descent).
Lutheran: Olaf (of Norwegian descent; but also of Jewish heritage through his mother).
Muslim: Calibans (originally from Algeria).
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Post by Seymour Glass on Jul 2, 2010 10:20:02 GMT -5
Fagin's an Irish name.
I don't think Bertrand is Jewish, at least not on his father's side.
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Post by Seymour Glass on Jul 2, 2010 10:25:24 GMT -5
Scandinavians do tend to be Lutheran.
I agree with the Denouements and Spats' beign Catholic.
French Huguenots often changed their names to something more English sounding while the French Catholics almost always kept their French names.
Spats is a German name and Carmelita is a Spanish name and Spanish speaking people are usually Catholic.
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Post by Hermes on Jul 2, 2010 12:30:35 GMT -5
But I think the name 'Fagin' in ASOUE is a reference to the character of Fagin in Oliver Twist, who is Jewish. Perhaps they are Irish Jews. (Of course, we aren't actually told F and F's surname - this is just a speculation, that they are the children of the Mr Fagin who refuses to adopt the Baudelaires at the beginning to TVV.) True - obviously the name 'Baudelaire' isn't Jewish all the way back. I'm taking it the orphans identify with their mother's religion, even if they're not particularly observant. The only positive evidence for this, I think, is that when Klaus finds a long robe his first thought is that it's what a rabbi might wear; but it fits the general outlook of the books, which do reflect Handler's Jewish point of view. (Oh - another Jewish character: Daniel Handler.) |
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Post by ollkorrect on Jul 2, 2010 13:22:39 GMT -5
Klaus had his thirteenth birthday in TVV; does it imply that he was supposed to have a Bar Mitzvah/ was he deemed a man from then on?
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Post by Songbird on Jul 5, 2010 17:13:31 GMT -5
I think it's certainly possible that Klaus's 13th birthday in TVV implies achieving some sort of adulthood/manhood. He could have had a bar mitzvah but it's not necessary to, but that depends on how religious we interpret their family to be. The more religious Jews tend to emphasize male bar mitzvahs, then going down females can be bat mitzvahed at age 12, but if you don't really practice all that much it's not a big deal if you don't have one.
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Post by Hermes on Jul 6, 2010 11:57:09 GMT -5
(Oh - another Jewish character: Daniel Handler.) Which reminds me - does anyone know what Brett Hellquist's religion is? He was at Brigham Young University, which rather suggests he is a Mormon, but it doesn't have to be so. (This may seem slightly off-topic, but Brett does appear as a character in TUA.) |
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