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Post by Christmas Chief on Oct 29, 2012 15:28:18 GMT -5
I find the false parents very puzzling. Theodora seems to think that they actually were his parents, so there is a real imposture going on, though clearly it doesn't deceive Lemony himself, and it doesn't seem to have deceived the wider VFD community either. Perhaps after graduation one rejoins one's family for a few weeks before leaving for one's apprenticeship - but these people had kidnapped L to stop him going with Theodora. But then, why did they bring him to the rendezvous point and then try to drug him, instead of just stopping him getting there in the first place? It seems the false parents had brought Lemony to the station under the pretense that he would board a train to meet his chaperone. Obviously, Lemony knew they weren't his real parents (he thinks of his parents' faces later in the book, so he does know what they look like), but he nonetheless doesn't realize his tea was poisoned. Theadora is the only one who doesn't seem to recognize the deception, but she does realize the tea had been dosed with laudanum, which makes me reluctant to attribute her ignorance of this matter to her general incompetence. As for why the two chaperones hadn't stopped Lemony from the start, that might be a result of wanting fewer witnesses around - or, better yet, wanting to be near a train so they could take him not to his chaperone, but Someplace Else.
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Post by Kit's tits kick ticks on Oct 29, 2012 16:39:43 GMT -5
I find the false parents very puzzling. Theodora seems to think that they actually were his parents, so there is a real imposture going on, though clearly it doesn't deceive Lemony himself, and it doesn't seem to have deceived the wider VFD community either. Perhaps after graduation one rejoins one's family for a few weeks before leaving for one's apprenticeship - but these people had kidnapped L to stop him going with Theodora. But then, why did they bring him to the rendezvous point and then try to drug him, instead of just stopping him getting there in the first place? It seems the false parents had brought Lemony to the station under the pretense that he would board a train to meet his chaperone. Obviously, Lemony knew they weren't his real parents (he thinks of his parents' faces later in the book, so he does know what they look like), but he nonetheless doesn't realize his tea was poisoned. Theadora is the only one who doesn't seem to recognize the deception, but she does realize the tea had been dosed with laudanum, which makes me reluctant to attribute her ignorance of this matter to her general incompetence. As for why the two chaperones hadn't stopped Lemony from the start, that might be a result of wanting fewer witnesses around - or, better yet, wanting to be near a train so they could take him not to his chaperone, but Someplace Else. Maybe I read that wrong, but Hector calls them "two other chaperones", and I thought it meant that the false parents were chaperones themselves and they wanted Lemony not to be Theodora's apprentice but theirs. So that was the serious part, now the stupid part of my thoughts: Maybe the apprentices can choose a chaperone, but the chaperones are competing for the apprentices and have the chance to get the good ones before they meet the chaperone they have chosen.
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Post by Christmas Chief on Oct 29, 2012 16:51:02 GMT -5
The way Hector put it, the two other chaperones drugged Lemony specifically so he would miss his appointment. It's possible they wanted Lemony for themselves, but it doesn't explain why they felt the need to use force. After all, Lemony would wake up eventually - hardly the time to ask for a favor. And as chaperones, do they not have apprentices of their own?
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Post by Kit's tits kick ticks on Oct 29, 2012 16:52:19 GMT -5
Maybe there are not as many apprentices as chaperones?
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Post by Christmas Chief on Oct 29, 2012 16:56:47 GMT -5
While there are fifty-two people with whom the graduates could apprentice, it's true we don't know how many graduates there are. But I was rather thinking that to be classified as a chaperone, one must first have an apprentice (otherwise one remains simply an agent).
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Post by Kit's tits kick ticks on Oct 29, 2012 17:01:01 GMT -5
That's probably true
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Post by Hermes on Oct 29, 2012 17:09:23 GMT -5
How will this do? They have brought him to the station, not to meet his chaperone, but to get on a train to someplace else. He has somehow managed to communicate with Theodora and got her to come and rescue him. (When, by the way, did he put the ladder in the bathroom? I presume on a previous occasion - the false parents would surely have noticed if he had been carrying it when he arrived with them.) Realising he might try to escape, they try to drug him better he has a chance to do so - but he doesn't take the drug because Theodora arrives at that moment.
(All this makes Theodora look rather more competent than Lemony normally presents her as being.)
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Post by Kit's tits kick ticks on Oct 29, 2012 17:25:37 GMT -5
That's a good idea, Hermes. And I also wondered how he put the ladder in the bathroom. The whole fact that Theodora could stop the false parents' plan makes her look more competent, or at least very lucky.
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Post by jman on Oct 29, 2012 17:31:07 GMT -5
Caliban! That's the word I was looking for. Still sounds similar to Mallahan, but not as similar as Calahan does.
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Post by Christmas Chief on Oct 29, 2012 17:38:44 GMT -5
How will this do? They have brought him to the station, not to meet his chaperone, but to get on a train to someplace else. Was Lemony intended to travel alone, I wonder? If so, that might give an additional reason for the false parents to drug him. How, though, does he know he needs to be rescued? And can he blindly trust the volunteer with the lowest ranking to save him? He thought he was taking the train, remember, as he planned to take notes on one of the books in his suitcase. If he knew he was leaving with Theadora for good, then he might have gathered a few more of his belongings, or at least not been so disappointed that there was no going back. I agree. The ladder confirms this was a planned escape, and Lemony's confidence of its location implies he had hid it there recently. However, I'm still not sure this accounts for his disappointment in his lack of belongings. Perhaps the escape was a larger plan, and Lemony had assumed some details that weren't fulfilled in the end. Which, of course, is why tea should be as bitter as wormwood. (I wonder if this is also the way Ishmael came to prefer it as such?) Rereading Chapter One, she's rather more apt at discretion than one might suppose her to be. Maybe Lemony's notion of her as the lowest-ranking volunteer has biased his perception of her somewhat.
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Post by Kit's tits kick ticks on Oct 29, 2012 17:50:32 GMT -5
Another idea: Lemony chose Theodora because he wanted to do other things secretly. Maybe the false parents didn't want him to do those things? And maybe Lemony wanted to escape because of the secret plans and therefore put the ladder in the bathroom.
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Post by Hermes on Oct 29, 2012 18:05:06 GMT -5
How, though, does he know he needs to be rescued? And can he blindly trust the volunteer with the lowest ranking to save him? He thought he was taking the train, remember, as he planned to take notes on one of the books in his suitcase. If he knew he was leaving with Theadora for good, then he might have gathered a few more of his belongings, or at least not been so disappointed that there was no going back. Well, if his false parents kidnapped him some time ago, then he will clearly know he needs to be rescued. And he was planning to take the train with Theodora - he thought her assignment was on the other side of the city, where he could work with her while also carrying on his secret plan with Kit. Indeed, it rather looks as if that, rather than his going to Stain'd, was what the false parents were trying to prevent. But another possibility has struck me - suppose it's a VFD tradition that one should begin one's apprenticeship by 'escaping' from one's parents, just as when first recruited one is 'taken', even though in fact one's parents have given permission in advance. So this is the normal rendezvous, and Theodora thinks she is there to 'rescue' him from his parents in the traditional manner (which would explain the ladder); but two chaperones have taken the place of his parents and are trying to actually stop the rendezvous taking place.
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Post by Christmas Chief on Oct 29, 2012 19:18:15 GMT -5
Well, if his false parents kidnapped him some time ago, then he will clearly know he needs to be rescued. And he was planning to take the train with Theodora - he thought her assignment was on the other side of the city, where he could work with her while also carrying on his secret plan with Kit. Indeed, it rather looks as if that, rather than his going to Stain'd, was what the false parents were trying to prevent. Ah, okay. If he had been kidnapped for some time, then the idea makes sense. I was supposing the parents were only transporting him from a place to another, but if Lemony were in their custody longer, the plan would work differently. Why, that's brilliant. I can see that as a V.F.D. tradition: one proving oneself capable of manipulation, planning, and coordination in a practical setting. And if true, it slots perfectly with the events associated with the escape.
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Post by The Secretary on Oct 29, 2012 22:49:05 GMT -5
More good points I hadn't thought about, everybody. I do wish I could get together a book club for this series where we could all sit around and discuss this. Thank you for the information on Hangfire, too: I should've just googled it to get the definition but apparently I wasn't thinking.
A little out of left field: Was I the only one to think that Stew sounded a bit like Vice-Principal Nero? As soon as his mimicking started my mind immediately jumped to that. I was about to get incredibly overwhelmed with excitement when I realized that it was a new character. Either it's coincidence, or, more likely, another nod to ASOUE?
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Post by Dante on Oct 30, 2012 2:30:25 GMT -5
Stew's mimicking could be a bit of a nod to Nero; it's not uncommon for annoying children, but anything we notice and recognise from ASoUE Handler probably also noticed. So I think there's an element of lucky coincidence, too.
As to the discussion of what was going on with the impostor parents, it's important to lay down a few facts. 1: Lemony's plan was to pick the worst chaperone so that he'd have time for a personal mission. 2: The way he and Kit are having to take advantage of their chaperones' business and breaks indicates that their personal mission is either not sponsored by their V.F.D. superiors or not known about by them - the latter indicates also that they wouldn't sponsor it. 3: Lemony expected that he was taking the train across town to work in the city, even after he'd met Theodora in the roadster. He therefore had some idea of where her typical working base was. 4: Lemony didn't know that the tea was drugged. 5: Lemony's plan was known to a few other friends/apprentices.
We can extrapolate a few things from this. If Lemony was always going to be taking the right train he might have predicted trouble, especially if he knew that what he was planning was neither a sponsored mission nor a popular one. So he probably put the ladder there a day or several in advance because he anticipated the possible need to make a stealthy getaway and knew that he'd be in the vicinity of that particular bathroom and its particular escape route. He didn't know the tea was drugged, but did expect possible trouble meeting his chaperone; therefore, the meeting with the chaperones playing false parents was probably a pre-planned part of the agenda but one which those chaperones had subverted the purpose of, and Lemony knew that they might attempt to do that because his actions were to some extent predictable and part of the rumour mill.
So I'd suggest a possible narrative as follows: Lemony had pre-arranged instructions for his route to meet his chaperone, and those directed him to the train station to get a particular train across town. These journeys are always chaperoned to a certain distance. Lemony's plan was heard about on the grapevine by two chaperones who disagreed with it badly enough to want to stop him, and they managed to get the position of his chaperone to his train journey with the aim of taking him someplace else. Lemony anticipated exactly this sort of trouble and prepared an escape route in advance that would allow him to sneak away from his chaperones if necessary.
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