"When Did You See Her Last?" Discussion

[Hermes]

Oct 24, 2013 11:18:27 GMT -5 Dante said:

SPOILER: Click to show

There are a couple of possibilities. One is that the villains don't communicate with one another very well. Nurse Dander may have been too busy with Ellington to be properly filled in on the real Cleo's capture, or whenever she and Flammarion have spoken then they've found themselves talking at cross-purposes about Cleo being in their clutches. It's plausible enough to me. We don't really know much about the villains' communication or how they organise themselves.

The other possibility is that Hangfire is fully aware that he has two Cleo Knights on his books and has a very good idea of who one of them really is, but doesn't want to break her cover or risk her coming to any harm, or indeed risk her being brought any nearer to him, so he's permitting Dander to labour on under an illusion. This has a lot going for it.

Or both.

SPOILER: Click to show

True, it's not impossible: one can certainly work out a scenario that would make sense of it. But (and this goes back to my first worry) I'm still rather puzzled that Lemony is so ready to accept it without explanation; that he says so confidently that Hangfire has captured C without considering that this makes it puzzling that he is still holding E. Though I wonder if we're in fact meant to see L as not a very good detective: better than Theodora (how could he not be?) but worse that Ellington and Moxie.

By the way, one of my predictions - that a character from ASOUE would turn up in Chapter 13 - proved correct, but the other - that Kit would team up with Theodora's previous apprentice - did not.

Chapter 4.

One might think it's a bit sexist of Lemony to demand that Moxie cut his hair, though in fairness he doesn't have any male friends who can do it.

Do you get the impression that Seth doesn't like Moxie?

I do think L's reasoning is a bit odd here. He says that a. Cleo can't have left in a taxi because she arrived in her Dilemma, and b. she can't have left in the Dilemma because it had a flat tyre. But if it has a flat tyre might she not have taken a taxi? Her being in two places at once is a bit more of a problem, but Polly Partial need only be a bit inaccurate about the time, which I'm sure she's capable of, to overcome that one.

Aha! We now know Ignatius' middle name. Presumably his mother chose it just so it would spell INK.

And now we discover more about the history of Stain'd. So, presumably once upon a time there were octopi near the surface, but as they died out (due to overexploitation, I suppose) it became necessary to drain the sea so as to reach the octopi in the lowest wells. 'To save the town' does not mean, as one might suppose, to save it from flood. But the cost of the draining operation was so great that Ink Inc. had to lay off a lot of workers and go into decline. It's not, it seems, declining for lack of demand.

Jake had not told the truth about Cleo - I suppose about how well he knew her. (He didn't actually say he saw her leave in the Dilemma, so it can't be that.)

What has L got against honeydew melons?

Chapter 5.

I think Lemony's arrest plan is a bit hit-and-miss. Polly Partial can't be relied on to recognise him as the person who stole the melons, nor, if he has had a haircut, can she remember him as someone she has met before. But she might still, by chance, have picked him out as the thief, which would have been problematic.

By the way, does the name 'Partial' have any special significance?

Presumably the Mitchums do not ask Moxie to take part in the line-up because the thief was so obviously not a girl.

Surely even if Cleo has gone off to join the circus this is still a matter for concern, since she is (I presume) under eighteen (since she has just started driving and, being rich, would have no reason to wait)?

[Charlie]

Oct 25, 2013 13:31:56 GMT -5 Hermes said:

SPOILER: Click to show

True, it's not impossible: one can certainly work out a scenario that would make sense of it. But (and this goes back to my first worry) I'm still rather puzzled that Lemony is so ready to accept it without explanation; that he says so confidently that Hangfire has captured C without considering that this makes it puzzling that he is still holding E. Though I wonder if we're in fact meant to see L as not a very good detective: better than Theodora (how could he not be?) but worse that Ellington and Moxie.

By the way, one of my predictions - that a character from ASOUE would turn up in Chapter 13 - proved correct, but the other - that Kit would team up with Theodora's previous apprentice - did not.

Chapter 4.

One might think it's a bit sexist of Lemony to demand that Moxie cut his hair, though in fairness he doesn't have any male friends who can do it.

Do you get the impression that Seth doesn't like Moxie?

I do think L's reasoning is a bit odd here. He says that a. Cleo can't have left in a taxi because she arrived in her Dilemma, and b. she can't have left in the Dilemma because it had a flat tyre. But if it has a flat tyre might she not have taken a taxi? Her being in two places at once is a bit more of a problem, but Polly Partial need only be a bit inaccurate about the time, which I'm sure she's capable of, to overcome that one.

Aha! We now know Ignatius' middle name. Presumably his mother chose it just so it would spell INK.

And now we discover more about the history of Stain'd. So, presumably once upon a time there were octopi near the surface, but as they died out (due to overexploitation, I suppose) it became necessary to drain the sea so as to reach the octopi in the lowest wells. 'To save the town' does not mean, as one might suppose, to save it from flood. But the cost of the draining operation was so great that Ink Inc. had to lay off a lot of workers and go into decline. It's not, it seems, declining for lack of demand.

Jake had not told the truth about Cleo - I suppose about how well he knew her. (He didn't actually say he saw her leave in the Dilemma, so it can't be that.)

What has L got against honeydew melons?

Chapter 5.

I think Lemony's arrest plan is a bit hit-and-miss. Polly Partial can't be relied on to recognise him as the person who stole the melons, nor, if he has had a haircut, can she remember him as someone she has met before. But she might still, by chance, have picked him out as the thief, which would have been problematic.

By the way, does the name 'Partial' have any special significance?

Presumably the Mitchums do not ask Moxie to take part in the line-up because the thief was so obviously not a girl.

Surely even if Cleo has gone off to join the circus this is still a matter for concern, since she is (I presume) under eighteen (since she has just started driving and, being rich, would have no reason to wait)?

Maybe Lemony just knows more than he lets on, and presumes Hangfire has his nefarious purposes for Ellington or whatnot.

Given the family naming scheme, it does seem odd that Ignatius would break the tradition with "Cleo"

I should think that the only reason her name is partial is for the pun (Partial foods, as opposed to whole-foods).

[MisterM]

partially sighted?

[Hermes]

Yes, both of those make sense, Well, 'make sense'. Come to think of it 'whole foods' doesn't really make sense, but no doubt that's the point.

One thing I should have mentioned earlier is that it's a bit weird that L, having been discussing favourite books with Pip and Squeak for some time, wonders if they can read a difficult word like 'headless'.

Chapter 6.

The library moths are a nice bit of foreshadowing. When were they first mentioned?

When Qwerty recommends Despair, he is yet again offering Lemony a clue. How does he know so much? Meanwhile the threats to the library seem ominous.

Colonel Colophon (Ivor Norman Colophon?) was Ingrid Nummet Knight's business partner, yet he doesn't seem to own part of the business now - unless he is just letting Ignatius manage it for him, having retired since his injury.

The story about L's parents is interesting - presumably it happened during one if his visits home ('and they seldom brought him back').

And we get the picture from the secretmail, in which I still find the firefighters interesting - there isn't an obvious reason for them to be there. I was right to guess that the previous page ended 'men and'.

Our attention is drawn to the wood of which the BB is made - can it come from the tree that was cut down? Yet the tree was cut down in the lifetime of many people still around, while the Mallahans seem to have had the BB for generations. It may have come from a branch that was cut off, I suppose.

As for the question why have a swimming pool at a clinic for a man covered in banadages, it emerges later that there were other patients as well, though the clinic was founded for the colonel.

[Teleram]

Can somebody post the Snicketmail picture Hermes was talking about in his last post?

[bandit]

It's not an actual picture, it's a description of a picture in the book. Also, you have that Snicketmail.

[Charlie]

I put the "headless" thing down to Lemony's actual handwriting being too illegible for most people to read, especially in longer words, and especially it would seem in the word "headless"

[Dante]

I kind of wonder if it's a very, very subtle joke. Just about any other word than "Headless" would have been more difficult, when the book is "The Headless Cupid, Zilpha Keatley Snyder." Actually, I've started doing something I did during ASoUE, which is seeking out the books Snicket alludes to and reading them myself. Now that most of the references are to children's literature it's become more enjoyable and less challenging.

[bandit]

Zilpha Keatley Snyder has some great books. If you like The Headless Cupid, I recommend trying Black & Blue Magic.

[Hermes]

I suspect that really he wants to draw our attention to that book in particular, by giving it a more blatant clue than normal.

Chapter 7.

Dicey's Department Store - an echo of Macy's?

Les Gommes is a book by Alain Robbe-Grillet, also made into a film. What it would actually signify in a restaurant I don't know - perhaps a dish made of gum, in the Lucky Smells manner?

So, what is the noise of metal scraping against metal? Is Nurse Dander sharpening the knife? With what?

I had originally supposed that Nurse Dander signed the books out to stop Lemony getting them, but in fact Ellington had ordered them.

Chapter 8.

Oh gosh, this chapter has a lot.

So - Cleo's invention can save the town, although, as we saw earlier, the ink business is not declining for lack of demand. Presumably invisible ink which actually works would generate such massive income so quickly that the company could take on lots of workers again. Since the octopi will no longer be endangered, we must suppose that it's not made of octopus, but of something else - presumably lemons, though not only them. Something from the sea?

Let me see if I've got the story of Cleo's note right. She didn't leave a note in invisible ink (which she knows doesn't work)- she left a note in perfectly straightforward ink, but Dr Flammarion destroyed it. The smell of lemons was not from her note, but because she had been using them in experiments. Does that work?

Cleo does not want her formula to fall into the wrong hands - but presumably, once her ink is being made and is available on the open market, the wrong hands can get hold of it anyway.

Here I do think Lemony rather overdoes his deductions. He knows that the Dilemma had a flat tyre, but he does not know that Cleo was driven away by someone else - that's certainly a possibility, but she might just have got out and walked. It depends on where she was going - we later find that she was going to Handkerchief Heights, which she could easily have walked to, though of course L doesn't know that. The idea that Dr Flammarion was someone she trusted is also a bit odd; could she not work out that he was the source of her parents' problems?

So - what's the timeline? After escaping at the end of WCTBATH, E hides in the attic for two days. Then, I think, she sees the package addressed to her father - and at this point, knowing that L belongs to a secret organisation, forms the conclusion that it must be the Inhumane Society. (He must be as mysterious to her as she is to him. And of course, while they are not the same organisation, there are parallels between them.) She follows Nurse Dander when she collects the package, but then returns to the attic, where she stays until she meets Cleo.

Does Mr Feint's name of 'Armstrong' signify anything?

When E left a message telling Hangfire she had the BB, he never answered. This confirms my suspicion that it isn't really the BB he's interested in (as does something else later).

Actually, the villains' holding on to E is even odder than I thought, because Nurse Dander surely knows the real Cleo. Dr Flammarion earlier said that he wasn't working alone at the Knights', since he had a friend who was good with a knife. So she must have been there. L says they will find out, but it seems they must have found out already. So I think Dante must be right that they are really holding on to E for some other reason

When L gives E his jacket, does it still have something sewn in the lining?

So why the single tadpole living apart from its cousins, in the apartment? Is it just that Mr Feint had 'rescued' it? I think it's rather sweet that Lemony also tried to preserve it.

[bandit]

Oct 30, 2013 14:55:22 GMT -5 Hermes said:

Les Gommes is a book by Alain Robbe-Grillet, also made into a film. What it would actually signify in a restaurant I don't know - perhaps a dish made of gum, in the Lucky Smells manner?

I wasn't aware that it was a book, but I think I mentioned earlier that 'gomme' means 'eraser' in French, not 'gum.'

So, what is the noise of metal scraping against metal? Is Nurse Dander sharpening the knife? With what?

Perhaps she has two knives.

Let me see if I've got the story of Cleo's note right. She didn't leave a note in invisible ink (which she knows doesn't work)- she left a note in perfectly straightforward ink, but Dr Flammarion destroyed it. The smell of lemons was not from her note, but because she had been using them in experiments. Does that work?

Yes, I think so. The paper with invisible ink was not anything important, it was just her testing out a variation of her invisible ink formula that ended up not working.

Cleo does not want her formula to fall into the wrong hands - but presumably, once her ink is being made and is available on the open market, the wrong hands can get hold of it anyway.

Well, if the wrong hands got hold of it before she made it available, they could take credit for it.

Does Mr Feint's name of 'Armstrong' signify anything?

So far it appears the Feints are named famous jazz musicians, i.e. Duke Ellington and Louis Armstrong.

When E left a message telling Hangfire she had the BB, he never answered. This confirms my suspicion that it isn't really the BB he's interested in (as does something else later).

Why would he hire Sally Murphy, and why would he ransack the Far East Suite, if not to get the Bombinating Beast?

[Dante]

Oct 30, 2013 14:55:22 GMT -5 Hermes said:

Les Gommes is a book by Alain Robbe-Grillet, also made into a film. What it would actually signify in a restaurant I don't know - perhaps a dish made of gum, in the Lucky Smells manner?

A combination of evoking the Frenchness of the restaurant while referencing what I get the impression is a noir work, is my guess.

Let me see if I've got the story of Cleo's note right. She didn't leave a note in invisible ink (which she knows doesn't work)- she left a note in perfectly straightforward ink, but Dr Flammarion destroyed it. The smell of lemons was not from her note, but because she had been using them in experiments. Does that work?

I think it's suggested that the blank, lemon-smelling paper was a test page for the still-in-progress formula.

Cleo does not want her formula to fall into the wrong hands - but presumably, once her ink is being made and is available on the open market, the wrong hands can get hold of it anyway.

But they wouldn't have exclusive access to it or the means of unlocking it.

Does Mr Feint's name of 'Armstrong' signify anything?

The echoes of "strongarm" are not irrelevant, I think, as that's apparently the means by which Mr. Feint has been induced to work for I.S. Apparently.

When E left a message telling Hangfire she had the BB, he never answered. This confirms my suspicion that it isn't really the BB he's interested in (as does something else later).

I'd be interested in what your later piece of evidence it is, but I myself think it's more that Hangfire does not want to meet Ellington, but does want to keep her nearby and under his eye. He had her seeking out the Bombinating Beast in ?1 even though he already had a workable plan to retrieve it with another servant under his direct supervision, and I doubt he anticipated that the Bombinating Beast would actually fall into her clutches. Now that she has it, he knows that she won't give it up to anyone else, but he can't afford to take it from her. It's not like he can set her father free.

So why the single tadpole living apart from its cousins, in the apartment? Is it just that Mr Feint had 'rescued' it? I think it's rather sweet that Lemony also tried to preserve it.

Personal observation of a single specimen, perhaps. Conceivably even a sort of pet.

[Hermes]

Oct 30, 2013 17:15:33 GMT -5 bandit said:

Oct 30, 2013 14:55:22 GMT -5 Hermes said:

Les Gommes is a book by Alain Robbe-Grillet, also made into a film. What it would actually signify in a restaurant I don't know - perhaps a dish made of gum, in the Lucky Smells manner?

I wasn't aware that it was a book, but I think I mentioned earlier that 'gomme' means 'eraser' in French, not 'gum.'

It means both. It can mean 'gum' in various senses (chewing gum, gum sweets, gum that you stick things with): it can also mean 'eraser', I take it because it is made of rubber, which can be a gummy substance.

Does Mr Feint's name of 'Armstrong' signify anything?

So far it appears the Feints are named famous jazz musicians, i.e. Duke Ellington and Louis Armstrong.

Ah, of course; well spotted. I wonder if we'll meet any more.

When E left a message telling Hangfire she had the BB, he never answered. This confirms my suspicion that it isn't really the BB he's interested in (as does something else later).

Why would he hire Sally Murphy, and why would he ransack the Far East Suite, if not to get the Bombinating Beast?

I don't know. But his plan with Sally Murphy, if successful, would not in any obvious way have led to him getting the BB in any case, since Theodora was meant to be arrested, which would have given the BB to the Mitchums.

[bandit]

Oct 30, 2013 17:34:05 GMT -5 Hermes said:

Oct 30, 2013 17:15:33 GMT -5 bandit said:

I wasn't aware that it was a book, but I think I mentioned earlier that 'gomme' means 'eraser' in French, not 'gum.'

It means both. It can mean 'gum' in various senses (chewing gum, gum sweets, gum that you stick things with): it can also mean 'eraser', I take it because it is made of rubber, which can be a gummy substance.

I've never heard it used outside the sense of rubber/resin, but in context Les Gommes the book appears to translate to 'The Erasers'.

I don't know. But his plan with Sally Murphy, if successful, would not in any obvious way have led to him getting the BB in any case, since Theodora was meant to be arrested, which would have given the BB to the Mitchums.

Hmm, you're right. In that case, the Mitchums would have just given the statue back to the Mallahans and everything would have come full circle, which makes the mystery of WCTBATH make even less sense.

[Dante]

I fear that you may have to come around to taking the plot of ?1 at face value. I find it unlikely that there would have been no cues in ?1 to indicate that anything other than securing the Bombinating Beast was his aim, especially if the plot of ?1 would otherwise have achieved nothing, and to be frank, wonky plotting is something of a hallmark. The text relies on the broader movements of characters in the plot rather than the practicalities, as I think is indicated by Ellington's swiping of the Bombinating Beast in Chapter Twelve of ?1, which would have basically been impossible. Theodora pocketing a brimming cup of tea from literally under Lemony's nose in the first chapter of the series sets a standard.