vfds321s
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Post by vfds321s on Apr 21, 2018 15:45:43 GMT -5
1)
What are the MWABBNH and WWHBNB''s motivations and goals?
We know the sinister duo had an aura of menace that scared even Count Olaf and had an infant slave before the schism. They are most likely the ones that started the schism in the first place. They are also the ones who burned down the V.F.D. headquarters and disguised themselves as judges of the high court. However why, I can't imagine.
2)
What are they anyway and why are even their names terrifying? Are they demons who want VFD out of the way in order to cause chaos because they can? Are they some sort of aliens that infiltrate society? Are they ordinary humans with delusions of grandeur and a lust for power?
Many mysteries of the series might be revealed if we first start with the source of all misery in the story, which Olaf and every villain on the fire starting side are merely pawns in. The Sinister Duo seems to be the ultimate villains of all of Lemony Snicket's books.
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Post by Uncle Algernon on Apr 21, 2018 17:11:59 GMT -5
I think it unlikely they're something as openly supernatural as demons or aliens. Most likely, they're simply a duo of destructive and influential Ernst Stavro Blofeld types, and yes, they most definitely started the Schism.
I don't think their names are terrifying as such, they've just come to be so for Lemony because of how terrifying they are. If I may bring up The Other Book Series, consider "Lord Voldemort". It doesn't bear good news, to be sure, but it's not in and on itself heart-stoppingly terrifying. The reason everyone is so deathly afraid to speak it is because of how awful the man himself was. I think it's very much the same thing with the Man and the Woman. Their names, for all we know, might be James Bumble and Marie McSweet. But when you've spent your life running away from James Bumble and hearing in excruciating detail how Marie McSweet tortured your children to death, you begin disliking the sound of those names anyway.
You describe Count Olaf and the other villains as the Duo's pawns, and… I don't know. It seems to me that now and then, when they feel he might be useful to one of their grand plots, they'll send instructions to Count Olaf, and Olaf will obey; but also that he's not usually acting on their orders, though with their blessings. That they're just content to have him running around, ruining the lives of people on the other side as collateral damage from his personal schemes, and they'll only rarely interfere with that. I doubt they gave a damn if Olaf got the Baudelaire fortune (they're probably well-funded as it is; perhaps Esmé makes generous "donations" to them sometimes), and the lives of the Baudelaire Orphans themselves were also probably beneath their notice.
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vfds321s
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Post by vfds321s on Apr 21, 2018 19:54:45 GMT -5
Thanks for answering question 2? But that still leads to Question 1. Why did they start the schism? Is there any specific goal in mind or is this just for evil's sake?
I just realized... I have two more questions.
3.
The only redeemable trait I can see the Sinister Duo having is that they genuinely work together without any signs of treachery against each other. But are they siblings, friends, or at least confidants? How close are they and why are they not afraid of each other like the rest of the villains are of them?
4.
Who in the world is Ernst Stavro Blofeld?
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Post by Dante on Apr 22, 2018 3:41:04 GMT -5
Blofeld is, I believe, a James Bond character, so you don't have to worry about understanding; Uncle Algernon is just making a comparison to another supervillain-type.
Regarding the background of the sinister duo, there are a couple of points I'd like to add that are drawn from the text of TPP: Firstly, on p. 183 Dewey describes having "searched the childhood home of the man with a beard but not hair, and intereviewed the math teacher of the woman with hair but no beard", which indicates that they have very normal human backgrounds and thus are unlikely to be demons or aliens, rather than simply violent and wicked people. Secondly, I'd also like to suggest that there's no indication that they are merely "disguised" as judges of the High Court; they really are the judges of the High Court, and Justice Strauss recognises them in their capacity and has worked with them for years (p. 305).
I don't think you're wrong in suggesting that they are, in a way, agents of chaos and anarchy, though. We don't know their background, their goals, or even their relationship to one another, save that they've been working so closely together for so long that they're essentially a single unit; but whatever their official aims are, it seems that they're probably motivated more than anything by a love of destruction and fire. The schism, the corruption of the High Court, their schemes to destroy evidence; these are really only secondary concerns.
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Post by Uncle Algernon on Apr 22, 2018 4:37:40 GMT -5
3. The only redeemable trait I can see the Sinister Duo having is that they genuinely work together without any signs of treachery against each other. But are they siblings, friends, or at least confidants? How close are they and why are they not afraid of each other like the rest of the villains are of them? You seem to be overlooking the possibility that they might be lovers… disturbing though the idea may be. Not only would this clear up their relationship, it would also explain why they trust each other. If one keeps Olaf/Esmé in mind, it's not so out-there as it seems. Also, they are unlikely to be siblings. Our Malicious Moderator brought up this quote from TPP: Firstly, on p. 183 Dewey describes having "searched the childhood home of the man with a beard but not hair, and intereviewed the math teacher of the woman with hair but no beard", This implies the Man's childhood home was different from the Woman's. As for why they're doing what they're doing… if they don't just want to literally Watch The World Burn TM, my thinking is that they're out to destroy VFD altogether. Perhaps they have a sliver of good intentions in them, or did at one point: they saw how powerful VFD was, and, being Judges of the High Court (I'm assuming they already were before they turned evil), they had a love for justice and order that clashed with the idea of a secret organization that could just disregard the law at any time and act on its own, possibly flawed morals. Since the whole problem was that there was nothing more powerful than VFD to keep VFD in check, they then decided the only way to destroy VFD and restore order to the world was to turn VFD against itself. In a way, this would make the Duo agents of the same small-minded, willful ignorance we constantly see from laymen like Poe, which is ultimately what Handler opposes to the values of VFD — values of greatness, heroism, intelligence and art. Except instead of being examples of it themselves, the Man and Woman are consciously, willfully out to encourage that mindset. I quite like the symbolism of that, as opposed to the other villains like Count Olaf who, in placing their own gain above VFD virtues but not explicitly disowning them, are somewhat less of a moral contrast to the side of good. |
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Post by Hermes on Apr 22, 2018 11:58:22 GMT -5
I think a very indicative passage is where they propose to burn the homes of the children they have kidnapped, and Olaf says 'Of course we're doing this to get their fortunes': the sinister duo then agree, but in a way that suggests they hadn't considered this point before. So while Olaf is a villain primarily for personal gain (Odious Lusting After Finance), they are villainous for its own sake. They may have been seeking personal gain once, or even pursuing a nobler motive, what 'fight fire with fire' ought to mean if taken seriously: but once they had started being villainous it had a corrupting influence on them ('the abyss looks into you').
I guess they now protect lesser villains like Olaf, because they want to make the world safe for villainy, and that's why Olaf defers to them. I agree they don't actually control the lesser villains on a regular basis. That can also explain their opposition to VFD, since VFD combats villainy, though it may also be that the organisation is, among other things, pursuing them specifically.
I don't think, though, that they can have been judges before they became eveil, if they caused the schism; that happened when Lemony was a child, at least thirty years or so ago. I'd take it they were originally in VFD, as the way they talk suggests, started out doing villainous things in a noble cause, and were gradually corrupted by it.
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Post by Uncle Algernon on Apr 22, 2018 13:34:01 GMT -5
I don't think, though, that they can have been judges before they became eveil, if they caused the schism; that happened when Lemony was a child, at least thirty years or so ago. I'd take it they were originally in VFD, as the way they talk suggests, started out doing villainous things in a noble cause, and were gradually corrupted by it. How are "they were judges before they were evil" and "they were VFD volunteers before they became evil" mutually exclusive? Being a Volunteer isn't a full-time job, y'know. Lemony (theatre critic), Monty (herpetologist) or Olaf (actor) all have regular occupations on top of being members of VFD. My thinking was that the Man and Woman first became judges, out of a thirst for order and justice; this quality led to VFD recruiting them; but then they decided VFD was too powerful and started the Schism to destroy it, going more and more evil as a side-effect — all the while remaining judges. And you recall that it happened at least thirty years ago, as if that were an argument against my idea. I don't see why. We don't know the Man and Woman's age; if you take them to be in their 60's (as I do) it works out. |
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Post by lemonmeringue on Apr 22, 2018 13:53:24 GMT -5
There is also very much the possibility, that the two of them became judges because of a thirst for injustice. After all, it would have been in their hands. Not to mention, when some fire-starter is captured by the police for some sort of crime visisble to non-volunteers, wouldn't it be helpful to have someone to free them at any given time? Perhaps that was even their job befor ethe schism - I am sure volunteers might have gotten in trouble with the law, even when doing "noble deeds". In fact, I think being a volunteer and a judge is by no means exclusive, in fact, it has been brought up that every volunteer has some sort of "real-life" profession they also use within V.F.D. and I suppose they were simply judges.
As for their relationship, I think it doesn't even really matter - they have their own sort of relationship anyway. They are simply a team in their goal. If they are related, or a couple, or anything else is minor compared to their shared evilness.
Otherwise, I think they are the bigger villains, yet not the antagonists. After all, the books are the story of the Baudelaire children, with V.F.D. being one (fairly big, yes) background aspect. The children are the protagonists, and Olaf is their personal antagonist. The story is centered about humans, not the organisation(s). Olaf happens to be a fire-starter himself, but it's just like he said - the Baudelaires' story is not the only story in the world. Of course, it's much larger than that, and if it were a story about V.F.D. and the schism, I assume the Sinister Duo were the antagonists, representing the fire-starting side - although, in all honesty, I am not sure who would represent the fire-fighters. Perhaps someone we don't even know - the world is quiet, but it's large and there are more volunteers than those we know. And in such a story, the Duo may or may not be the ultimate villains, while Count Olaf would just be a very unimportant, small little figure. But in ASOUE, Olaf is the big villain, and the grand evil duo are just side characters, while the Baudelaire children - who are tiny little things in the dimensions of V.F.D. - are the most important people of all.
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Post by Hermes on Apr 22, 2018 14:22:12 GMT -5
I don't think, though, that they can have been judges before they became eveil, if they caused the schism; that happened when Lemony was a child, at least thirty years or so ago. I'd take it they were originally in VFD, as the way they talk suggests, started out doing villainous things in a noble cause, and were gradually corrupted by it. How are "they were judges before they were evil" and "they were VFD volunteers before they became evil" mutually exclusive? Being a Volunteer isn't a full-time job, y'know. Lemony (theatre critic), Monty (herpetologist) or Olaf (actor) all have regular occupations on top of being members of VFD. My thinking was that the Man and Woman first became judges, out of a thirst for order and justice; this quality led to VFD recruiting them; but then they decided VFD was too powerful and started the Schism to destroy it, going more and more evil as a side-effect — all the while remaining judges. You were suggesting that they began their campaign against VFD because, being judges, they were concerned by its potential for injustice. But if they were in VFD themselves, that can't be so. They might still have been judges, as a day job, but that isn't what explains their conversion to villainy on this reading. In my experience people become judges - especially Supreme Court judges - quite late in their career, but I guess that differs between nations, so we can't say how it is in Snicketland. (Though it seems to be true of Justice Strauss, who was previously a horse-thief, and presumably didn't go straight from that to being a judge.) But bear in mind thirty years is a low estimate - its the shortest possible time, based on Beatrice having Violet at the earliest plausible age, but it was probably longer than that. |
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vfds321s
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Post by vfds321s on Apr 22, 2018 14:41:48 GMT -5
3. The only redeemable trait I can see the Sinister Duo having is that they genuinely work together without any signs of treachery against each other. But are they siblings, friends, or at least confidants? How close are they and why are they not afraid of each other like the rest of the villains are of them? You seem to be overlooking the possibility that they might be lovers… disturbing though the idea may be. Not only would this clear up their relationship, it would also explain why they trust each other. If one keeps Olaf/Esmé in mind, it's not so out-there as it seems. Also, they are unlikely to be siblings. Our Malicious Moderator brought up this quote from TPP: Firstly, on p. 183 Dewey describes having "searched the childhood home of the man with a beard but not hair, and intereviewed the math teacher of the woman with hair but no beard", This implies the Man's childhood home was different from the Woman's. As for why they're doing what they're doing… if they don't just want to literally Watch The World Burn TM, my thinking is that they're out to destroy VFD altogether. Perhaps they have a sliver of good intentions in them, or did at one point: they saw how powerful VFD was, and, being Judges of the High Court (I'm assuming they already were before they turned evil), they had a love for justice and order that clashed with the idea of a secret organization that could just disregard the law at any time and act on its own, possibly flawed morals. Since the whole problem was that there was nothing more powerful than VFD to keep VFD in check, they then decided the only way to destroy VFD and restore order to the world was to turn VFD against itself. In a way, this would make the Duo agents of the same small-minded, willful ignorance we constantly see from laymen like Poe, which is ultimately what Handler opposes to the values of VFD — values of greatness, heroism, intelligence and art. Except instead of being examples of it themselves, the Man and Woman are consciously, willfully out to encourage that mindset. I quite like the symbolism of that, as opposed to the other villains like Count Olaf who, in placing their own gain above VFD virtues but not explicitly disowning them, are somewhat less of a moral contrast to the side of good. I apologize for overlooking it. Though to be fair, lovers can count as friends? Also Esme dumped Olaf while the duo are still together so Olaf/Esme easily didn't occur to me. I also thought siblings due to the theory that M and N are the Sinister Duo (making Olaf their sibling) On a side note, maybe the woman's name is Injustice. That would make the Duo a great foil to "Justice" Strauss. Speaking of her, why did she just hire them on the spot, why doesn't she fear them, and how did no one on the volunteer side tell her that her two colleagues that she has trusted for years are really evil? Justice might not have believed them before the events of TBB, but once she started searching for the Baudelaires and became a semi-member of V.F.D., she sure should have found something suspicious in them. As for when they became judges, the schism started when Kit was four years old, so the Duo must at least be in their 50's, thus being both judges and volunteers/villains at the same time isn't that exclusive. |
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Post by Dante on Apr 22, 2018 14:46:21 GMT -5
How do you know that the sinister duo didn't precede Justice Strauss in rising to the High Court, and were the ones who promoted her? An oblivious stooge, outnumbered on the High Court, powerless to oppose her coworkers but whose presence makes them look good. It's likely that they are the ones who instituted the rule that the High Court should operate with all except the judges blindfolded, so that nobody could ever find out that two notorious villains are among the High Court judges.
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Post by Uncle Algernon on Apr 22, 2018 14:56:00 GMT -5
How are "they were judges before they were evil" and "they were VFD volunteers before they became evil" mutually exclusive? Being a Volunteer isn't a full-time job, y'know. Lemony (theatre critic), Monty (herpetologist) or Olaf (actor) all have regular occupations on top of being members of VFD. My thinking was that the Man and Woman first became judges, out of a thirst for order and justice; this quality led to VFD recruiting them; but then they decided VFD was too powerful and started the Schism to destroy it, going more and more evil as a side-effect — all the while remaining judges. You were suggesting that they began their campaign against VFD because, being judges, they were concerned by its potential for injustice. But if they were in VFD themselves, that can't be so. They might still have been judges, as a day job, but that isn't what explains their conversion to villainy on this reading. My point was that their being judges was a consequence of their strive to achieve Order and Justice, which would also be their reason for betraying VFD. |
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Post by Hermes on Apr 22, 2018 15:05:02 GMT -5
Is there any reason to think that judges appoint other judges? In the real world they are either elected, or appointed by the President/the Lord Chancellor/whoever. The real world is often not a good guide to what happens in Snicketland, but it's not obvious it has to be different in this respect.
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Post by gothicarchiesfan on Apr 22, 2018 16:53:03 GMT -5
I think that the ultimate point of the Man With a Beard But No Hair and the Woman With Hair But No Beard is that they're supposed to be ambiguous and unknown. Their primary function in the narrative is to reinforce two very key themes of the series.
1) That Olaf is not the worst villain in the world, and that there are forces even crueler and more evil than him. Which by extension, ties into the later books’ theme of the story being bigger than just the Beaudelaires struggle with Count Olaf.
2) That even institutions which should by rights help the helpless and encourage noble deeds (i.e. the high court or V.F.D.) can be corrupted from the inside by wicked influences that pervert said organization's stated noble goals.
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vfds321s
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Post by vfds321s on Apr 22, 2018 22:05:49 GMT -5
Thanks for everyone's input. The purpose of this thread was to find the Sinister Duo and their goals and their relationships. It's true that they were invented to show that Count Olaf's atrocities are small playdates compared to the other more darker villains. And I wanted to make sure what exactly they were, which is why I thought they might have been demons or aliens due to their aura of menace. Those were just the first two guesses. The third one was that they were simply power hungry humans, and they probably were to some degree. I also wondered why Lemony would refer to them as the man with a beard but no hair and the woman with hair but no beard instead of their real names. (Nobody refers to Hitler as the man with the tiny mustache or Osama Bin Laden as the man with a turban and a beard or even fictional villains Palpatine as the man with the cloak who shoots lightening). I must've forgotten the part where Dewey looked into their childhoods. Thanks Dante for pointing that out.
By Ultimate villains, I meant that they were the most evil in the series and the driving force behind it. If the Sinister Duo weren't evil there would be no schism. No schism, no Olaf turning evil. no Olaf turning evil. no fire. no fire, no series of unfortunate events. They don't necessarily have to be the main villains.
Here are some examples:
Beauty and the Beast: The enchantress was the one that turned the prince into the beast and started the conflict, but the main villain is still Gaston.
The Incredibles: Bomb Voyage had a minor role but still caused the outlawing of supers. Is he the main villain? No! That would be Syndrome
Despicable Me: Vector is the main villain, yet his father Mr. Perkins, the owner of the Bank of Evil, is the Greater Scope Villain.
Never has to be the primary antagonist in order to be the ultimate evil. And the same applies here. I really did think judges were their disguise as there is a Judge disguise in TUA and I can't really see real Judges betray each other like they did with Justice Strauss. Thanks for also disputing my pawn assumption. The other villains are pawns in the sense that they are the ones that make the other villains shriek in terror, leaving them with no other choice but to obey out of fear of what will happen if they dare to cross them. But I agree now, they only use other villains when they need to, then probably pay them a good amount of money and let them go on their merry way unless or until they summon them again. I hope that clears some stuff up.
Yes, the books have very limited information and characters like the Sinister Duo will only be mentioned again if their necessary to the plot. But that's what ASOUE and other Snicket material are all about, setting mysteries for us to solve on their own. We may never get all the answers but 667 Dark Avenue has been great at trying and is still growing strong.
This is my last reply in this thread. Feel free to continue discussions in this thread as fit.
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