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Post by B. on Nov 10, 2021 1:45:05 GMT -5
Why/why not?
Also if you were ever famous, what do you think you'd be famous for?
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Post by MisterM on Nov 10, 2021 2:03:04 GMT -5
I'd like to be a famous writer.
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Post by Skelly Craig on Nov 10, 2021 13:24:14 GMT -5
I shun fame, though it would be nice to have a small religious cult following who'd mass suicide for me if I asked them to.
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Post by B. on Nov 10, 2021 13:30:30 GMT -5
Yeah I think I wouldn't mind being well known in certain circles for doing something cool, but definitely wouldn't like to have the kind of fame where you have to be a role model/get people with cameras chasing you/stalkers etc or get routinely recognised, that seems like a nightmare
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Post by bear on Nov 10, 2021 14:21:34 GMT -5
it seems like the only thing that could possibly make life feel fulfilling, at least for a minute.
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Post by Skelly Craig on Nov 10, 2021 15:17:51 GMT -5
Fame seems like a specifically human ambition, and a weird one at that. Like, imagine any other animal wishing for fame.
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Post by bear on Nov 10, 2021 15:27:31 GMT -5
Fame seems like a specifically human ambition, and a weird one at that. Like, imagine any other animal wishing for fame. Yeah we invented it as a defense against mortality, like religion. if an animal knew they were going to die, they’d probably wanna be famous too. |
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Post by MisterM on Nov 10, 2021 15:57:29 GMT -5
Many animals do have conceptions and forknowledge of death. Elephants in particular. I believe. (Maybe that explains Dumbo)
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Post by bear on Nov 10, 2021 16:35:24 GMT -5
conceptions yes. foreknowledge no. I think elephants have been observed “mourning” their dead — doesn’t mean they know they’ll die.
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Post by Skelly Craig on Nov 10, 2021 18:06:50 GMT -5
Immortality might be one aspect of fame desired by humans, but I feel like many don't care much about being remembered after their death and have an obsession with fame for its immediate perceived advantages (attention, chief of all).
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Post by the panopticountolaf on Nov 10, 2021 18:27:54 GMT -5
Fame seems like a specifically human ambition, and a weird one at that. Like, imagine any other animal wishing for fame. You don’t have to imagine it. Watch a DreamWorks movie. but yeah, fame seems like it’d be pretty awful. Power corrupts. |
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Post by Violent BUN Fortuna on Nov 10, 2021 18:50:02 GMT -5
I always find the assumption that animals have no foreknowledge of death quite odd. We can clearly see that they understand and anticipate danger, that they understand death as it happens (for example, a predator knows when they've successfully killed their prey), and as has been mentioned, many animals have been observed to mourn their dead. Animals witness death all the time, and they continually strive to avoid situations which would lead to their own deaths, or the deaths of their fellows. So why do we believe they have no foreknowledge of it?
It seems to me very much like one of the many assumptions humans have made about other animals which later turn out to be incorrect; many people used to say (and shockingly, some still do) that other animals are incapable of any emotion, of feeling pain, etc, but that is patently not true.
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Post by MisterM on Nov 10, 2021 19:11:50 GMT -5
I suppose the difference between death for animals and humans is that humans actively try to prevent it, whereas animals simply try to avoid it.
Also, humans are terrible at dealing with the emotional consequence of death. It's probably better suited to another thread, but I am endlessly fascinated with the fact that despite humans dying for millions of years we are, as a species, completely salsa at dealing with that fact.
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Post by Skelly Craig on Nov 10, 2021 20:25:15 GMT -5
I think that's just because there is no way to deal with death other than to accept it. Other species aren't necessarily "better" at it. As a society we just honor the fact that accepting the death of a loved one is a difficult process that takes time and involves pain that's potentially never fully overcome. The way we honor this can be clumsy or seem arbitrary, but I find it a noble thing in itself to do. At the least it reminds us that we all go through this pain in life.
Here's something to tie this back into the topic of fame: I once read a quote by Banksy, of all people, that goes: "They say you die twice. One time when you stop breathing and a second time, a bit later on, when somebody says your name for the last time." I guess that second death is what bear was talking about.
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Post by bear on Nov 10, 2021 22:28:05 GMT -5
I always find the assumption that animals have no foreknowledge of death quite odd. We can clearly see that they understand and anticipate danger, that they understand death as it happens (for example, a predator knows when they've successfully killed their prey), and as has been mentioned, many animals have been observed to mourn their dead. Animals witness death all the time, and they continually strive to avoid situations which would lead to their own deaths, or the deaths of their fellows. So why do we believe they have no foreknowledge of it? It seems to me very much like one of the many assumptions humans have made about other animals which later turn out to be incorrect; many people used to say (and shockingly, some still do) that other animals are incapable of any emotion, of feeling pain, etc, but that is patently not true. i honestly didn't know that what i said could be considered controversial. death is a purely abstract concept, which you must understand in order to be aware of the other purely abstract fact that you and everything else will always inevitably die. obviously every living thing has the instinct to avoid any kind of harm. but it's a huge leap from an animal's (or plant's) defense mechanisms, or even an animal's acknowledgement of other deaths, to the existential understanding of one's own mortality. |
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