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Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Apr 2, 2024 4:06:47 GMT -5
I am fully aware that what I am writing if of an extreme elngth, and that most people are not reading, so to clarify for the more general (i.e not Jean Lucios) among you.... this is, essentially, an orgiional novel. The links to ASOUE are tenuous at best, but it has a flavour of the word, and some of the details. But there is more that doesn't match that does, and that will change considerably when I am finished and this is put into it's published form. So, I will continue to write and post it here, but I am amore focussing on my intended audience (i.e, one who will have the full novel to hand and can read in one go) rather than the current (those who have to wait weeks between chapters and will therefore forget a lot of the small details). But hey. It's good, i feel. Plus, i'm over 60,000 words now, which has got to be some kind of record for this site. (and another 19 chapters to go...) Just to let you know, I'm reading chapter 18, but I needed to reread chapters 16 and 17 again in the last few days. And please don't give up. It's getting very good.
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Post by HAL 10,000 on Apr 4, 2024 15:16:41 GMT -5
Reading chapter 19 right now. Keep it coming.
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Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Apr 5, 2024 2:24:53 GMT -5
I had the opportunity to reread chapter 18. The plot involves mind invasion, and a time travel experiment. This subject has been interesting me a lot lately. Because physically traveling to the past, even in fiction, is complicated by paradoxes. I think when we talk about traveling to the past in fiction, the first thing to think about is "to what extent can traveling to the past alter the timeline"? To what extent was the trip to the past itself already written, so to speak, and the trip to the past doesn't change anything? Beatrice manages, as the title says, to enter people's minds in a natural way. This means that others get it artificially. If we are talking about time travel, perhaps we are in a cycle: Beatrice would be the zero point of the timeline, and research related to her allowed affecting situations in the past and future. In the future, I believe, there will be people influencing the past from their point of view.
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Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Apr 5, 2024 12:31:31 GMT -5
I finally finished reading chapter 20. It has been a very sensorial experience following your narrative. So, we can position the events involving Beatrice as 15 years before the events involving Fiona. Considering the ages of the characters (at least as I imagine), Harry must have lost his parents around the same time as the events involving Beatrice. Similarly, Fernald must have lost his hands around the same time as the events involving Beatrice. So, at the time of the play, someone had a vision of what would happen 15 years in the future and wrote the play. The mechanism that allows vision of the future is linked to a type of substance. I believe it must be a substance decreed by the beast. Fiona and Beatrice have an amulet that heats up during their mind-seeing sessions.
Could this amulet be a form of technology that concentrates the power they received? Fiona was touched by the beast in the scene we already saw. But at what point was Beatrice played? Why do priests who appear to be working secretly for the same purpose also have their own agendas? Who formed the priests' association, and why is Harry so important to them? Is he some kind of chosen one? Is he the founder of the secret time control society but he just doesn't know it yet? Why were his parents killed? Did they die because they needed to die to fulfill their son's destiny?
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Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Apr 5, 2024 12:39:03 GMT -5
>0.12.23--IS-RECORD#089--45.2.9< SUBJECT : ARTHUR BURKINSHAW CC; WILLOWS, BEDFORD, VFD I have carried out a preliminary survey of the discussed, and unfortunately the items in question were not removed prior to the destruction of the property. Although the desturction was near total, due to the nature of the items we believe them to have came into possession of the OFD shortly after the blaze had begun. Their whereabouts are currently being invesigated and I will report back as soon as I can. Fortunately, their were no survivors of the blaze, and the Burkinshaw estate was passed over to the executor. We already have Poe under our control, and we have manged to arrange for the items to be become available for auction as soon as possible. I will be attendance, and if you can allocate me the required funds I can assure their swift procurement. ADR <9.2.45--CEASE Apparently the events involving the fire at Henry's house took place in the year 2023. Someone was watching and left a recording for the future on some recording device. This future takes place in 2045. So we have a 22-year range of events. So, about 7 years after the events involving Fiona, Henry should have a more relevant role in the events involving the secret organization that I will call "THE CADUCEU". The events surrounding the ship Fiona was on serve as a representation of a collective hallucination generated by some form of technology. Picture this hypothetical scenario: all crew members are actually subjects within capsules, undergoing experiments involving the invasion of their minds, manipulation of their sensations, and the use of a substance with time-related properties. Beatrice is on the outside, using her powers to organize the minds of those inside the capsules. She does not wish for them to die. Simultaneously, parts of her thoughts and experiences affect the memories and sensations of the subjects, causing them to enter a type of simulation. In this simulation, the play Beatrice was performing becomes a reality experienced by the subjects. The main avatar for Beatrice is Fiona, which is why they share such intertwined memories, and also possess the same pendant. An important aspect of Harry's escape is that he encountered and touched a black substance, likely the same substance used in experiments on the subjects who make up the crew. The question arises: how and why was this substance beneath his house? If it is a substance decreed by the beast, this could mean that the beast has traversed the secret tunnels where Harry was found. We don't know much about what happened to him while he was in the tunnels, but perhaps the beast and he came into contact there, and maybe this interaction is why he becomes such a significant figure in the future.
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Post by Isadora Is a Door on Apr 5, 2024 13:05:20 GMT -5
Similarly, Fernald must have lost his hands around the same time as the events involving Beatrice. Why is that? I'm interested where you are getting that infromation from as, well, it's not what I am intending. I may well have slipped up somewhere. As usual, Jean, your theories are fascinating. You have got a lot of things correct, but even more wrong. But it is heartneing to see how much you are in the right place.
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Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Apr 5, 2024 13:21:56 GMT -5
Similarly, Fernald must have lost his hands around the same time as the events involving Beatrice. Why is that? I'm interested where you are getting that infromation from as, well, it's not what I am intending. I may well have slipped up somewhere. As usual, Jean, your theories are fascinating. You have got a lot of things correct, but even more wrong. But it is heartneing to see how much you are in the right place. In fact, I had the answer behind many questions from your narrative choices. Rereading your story and connecting the dots is truly fascinating! After reading some mysteries, I realized what are some methods that authors use to keep secrets hidden. The method you have used is what I call the "honest method". There are no lying narrators, and the characters we follow know as much as we who are reading. So, to be able to hide secrets while being so honest, authors need to resort to puzzle strategies: the pieces are exposed but they are mixed up. Furthermore, there is a large amount of information delivered to the reader and they need to refine the information and separate what is useful for putting together the puzzle and what only serves to ambience the story and make it more immersive. On the first reading you imerge into the story. In the second you separate the wheat and the chaff. And this consequently makes the third reading even more immersive and impactful.
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Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Apr 5, 2024 13:28:30 GMT -5
Similarly, Fernald must have lost his hands around the same time as the events involving Beatrice. Why is that? I'm interested where you are getting that infromation from as, well, it's not what I am intending. I may well have slipped up somewhere. As usual, Jean, your theories are fascinating. You have got a lot of things correct, but even more wrong. But it is heartneing to see how much you are in the right place. Did you see that I updated the previous post with more information? As I was writing I realized that some things I had said before were not right. For example, I now believe that the events involving Fiona on the ship take place around the same time that Beatrice was acting out the play, and it was the fact that she was thinking so much about the play that "created" the universe on the ship, because Fiona is Beatrice's main avatar among the guineas pigs. This means that Harry is among the test subjects, and so is Julian. The events involving Harry and Julian's contact with the priests slightly precede the events involving Beatrice and Fiona. I also updated the information involving the black liquid Harry found while hiding. Rearranging my thoughts: If in fact Fiona is living in a universe created by Beatrice's experiences and imaginations mixed with their own, the monster that Fiona had to deal with in that universe actually represents a beast in the real world, and the person who dealt with the beast in the real world may actually have been Beatrice, and that's where she got her powers, and became one of the "naturals." Harry must be another "natural" who awakened his powers at some point in the future. Harry must become such an important person because his whole life has been related to THE CADUCEUS, the Beast, and even Fernald's organization, which I will call "THE HOOKS". (Hooks are used to capture serpents, and there's a serpent on the caduceus, and the devil is portrayed as a serpent, and Fernald has hook hands, so I think it's an appropriate symbol.)
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Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Apr 5, 2024 18:07:54 GMT -5
Here are some deductions from Fernald's letter. These are not entirely reliable but are necessary for me to write down now, for later analysis of their validity:
1. At some point, Fernald and Dr. Rasmussen were allies. (Could this be in another timeline?) 2. Dr. Rasmussen promised to try to help Fiona. 3. Fernald believed he was about to die and that by the time Fiona received the letter, he would already be dead. (I'm not sure if he was referring to this timeline or another. I will assume it's in another timeline. In other words, the Fernald who authored the letter is a different Fernald.) 4. Fernald believed he was sacrificing himself (possibly on some kind of mission) to prevent Fiona's death. 5. What comes after death is a recurring theme in the letter and the story on the ship. (I believe we are not exactly talking about the immortality of the soul, but rather a repetition of timelines, with significant variations between them.) 6. Fernald believed Fiona had escaped from the research facility because she had discovered something. 7. Fiona voluntarily subjected herself to the research. Perhaps this has to do with her becoming the main avatar of Beatrice. 8. The experiments conducted by the organization went beyond expectations, and something terrible was unleashed. 9. The phrasing seems to indicate that Fernald, when he wrote this letter, was in the future relative to the recipient of the letter. 10. Fernald, like Beatrice, must be a Natural. Someone capable of using mind invasion powers and mental time travel without resorting to complex technological devices that include the use of a substance secreted by the beast or a replica of the substance. 11. Complex technological devices that include the use of a substance secreted by the beast or a replica of the substance were developed by Dr. Rasmussen's research using human subjects. 12. A powerful enemy is coming after Fiona. (Is it the Beast? Is it Harry? Is it the secret organization THE CADUCEUS?) 13. Fernald managed to meet with Fiona at some point between when he wrote the letter and when he sent it. 14. There is a form of temporal loop in progress, but not in the classic sense. As I've said, history repeats itself with significant differences each time. 15. Fernald managed to include a physical object in the letter (a key). This indicates that the key was already stored at the time the letter would reach Fiona. 16. The letter was sent to Beatrice because Fernald already knew of the mental connection between Beatrice and Fiona.
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Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Apr 5, 2024 23:34:42 GMT -5
Important detail in chapter 6:
1 - When Fernald offers his hand to Julian: "'You saw me.' said the man, his voice steady. 'And you saw that I saw you. But yet you still took longer to catch up with me than I would have thought.' He held out his hand to Julian, an offer of friendship that both surprised and angered Julian.
2 - "Fernald's interaction with Julian in the bathroom: "The man twisted the tap shut, dried his hands on a towel, and reached into his pocket to take out a pocket watch."
This means that right after the fire that Harry survived, Fernald still possessed the hands. Thus, the death of Fiona's mother and Beatrice's contact with the Beast happened after these events in which Julian and Fernald were looking for the diary of a member of Prospero.
Both Fernald and Julian were interested in a diary that contained information about the events in the hallucinations of Fiona and the rest of the test subjects. This suggests that the minds of the subjects were indeed sent to the past, possessing someone's body (perhaps also on a ship) and one of them, Tamson, wrote about what he was experiencing within the hallucination. With this information, Fernald could access details about things that, from his perspective, were yet to occur. In a way, this serves as a mechanism to alter the future or at least to prepare for it.
Note: Rereading I realized that the key to heaven, mentioned in the letter sent by Fernald, was not necessarily sent physically with the letter. Maybe yes, or maybe not. I need to keep rereading to make sure. In any case, does this key to heaven have something to do with the sea of stars seen by Fiona?
Harry's and Beatrice's parents were members of THE CADUCEUS. They were already informed about the roles their children would play in the unfolding events. Likely, information from the future was sent back to the past, so the children born would be safe until they fulfilled their purposes. Similarly, the death of Harry's parents was already predicted, as well as his initial contact with the black substance, and that he would go to the abbey, enter the simulation created by Beatrice, and likely become a leader or a sort of messiah for THE CADUCEUS once he emerged from there.
Important facts from Chapter 11: Fernald is seen working with subjects in the same facilities where Beatrice would later work. At this time, Fernald still had both hands intact, indicating that the events of Chapter 11 are descriptions of events before the Beast's appearance to him. Based on the letter, we can deduce that Fiona also came to work at these facilities at some point. After that, she became one of the subjects, and subsequently, Beatrice arrived and organized the subjects' thoughts into a coherent collective hallucination, saving their minds. Fernald’s mother was also a member of THE CADUCEUS and left him an artifact from the organization (the spyglass). At this time, Fernald was allied with Dr. R.
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Post by Isadora Is a Door on Apr 6, 2024 14:33:11 GMT -5
Ah, I see.
The basis of most of this theory is unfortuantely inaccurate, though entirely correct based on the information you currently have. In a few chapters you'll know what I mean.
However, just becasue the spine is incorrect, a lot of the details are not.
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Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Apr 6, 2024 15:12:50 GMT -5
In Chapter 13, Fiona sees a mysterious woman with a pendant; this is Beatrice. Fiona recalls the time she worked with Dr. R. Eventually, she meets Dr. R. The simulation is breaking down for Fiona, and she begins to make contact with the real world, so to speak, but she is still within the simulation.
The submarine chapter at the beginning of Part 2 likely takes place after Fiona has escaped from Dr. R's clutches. She has reunited with Fernald and is now on a submarine, possibly fleeing from the Beast. This Beast may have been unleashed by Dr. R's experiments in some way, which is probably what Fernald referred to in the letter. In the submarine, Fernald already has hook hands.
In Chapter 14, Fiona receives a letter from Fernald handed to her by Dr. Rasmussen. This suggests that Dr. R has become part of the simulation created by Beatrice, and Beatrice managed to ensure the letter reached Fiona's hands as Fernald had planned. The key to heaven is the pendant.
Chapter 15: Rasmussen finally starts a conversation about the answers Beatrice is seeking, explaining the origin of an ancient secret society focused on the preservation of knowledge and the exploration of human limits. He discusses the division within the society that led to the formation of an even more secretive group determined to go beyond ethical boundaries to uncover hidden truths. Rasmussen reveals that a maritime expedition discovered a mysterious substance in a sea creature, which has since been central to their controversial experiments. He explains that the "patients" in the experiment are actually society members who agreed to undergo the tests, and the substance has profound and transformative effects. Rasmussen acknowledges that the group's actions are extreme, but he believes in the importance of their scientific mission despite the moral consequences. The conversation reveals that Beatrice had a unique experience with the substance that deeply altered her perception and memory. Beatrice and Rasmussen discuss the complexity of memory and how experiences can change our understanding of reality.
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Post by Isadora Is a Door on Apr 7, 2024 1:51:03 GMT -5
In the submarine, Fernald already has hook hands. So therein lies the rub - I HAVE made an error. Fernald should not had had hooks in that earlier moment on the submarine, or he should not have lost his hands until the end of the latest chapter at any rate. I got confused somewhere along the way. Ah well, it's a minor thing in the grand scheme. Techinically i could retcon the story to say that he had hooks already, and hes just lost those when the beast attatcke,d but thats not as narratively cohesive as I would like. I imagine I will fix it in editing at any rate. So to clarify for your assistance - all the sub scenes with fiona and fernald take place before they are captured by doctor r.
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Post by Isadora Is a Door on Apr 7, 2024 1:56:31 GMT -5
Beatrice and Rasmussen discuss the complexity of memory and how experiences can change our understanding of reality. Unreliable narrators, Jean. Now, don't go mad with this, but, those peoples who have undergone the experiments have altered perceptions of reality, and therefore see things in an altered state to those who have not. I'm not saying that this can explain away inconsistencies in joining the dots of the story, but that it explains some of the more abtract moments as being only one persons interpreation. For example - the ship was not, in reality, sailing on a sea of stars. It was the infecteds interpretation of, well, something different.
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Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Apr 7, 2024 20:52:07 GMT -5
An interesting point to investigate is the views and attitudes of Jean and Octavian.
**Possible conflict of visions:** Jean provides a space for doubt and questioning, while Octavian focuses on faith as alignment to the cause without room for deviation. This difference might indicate a potential ideological or methodological conflict between them, suggesting that they might have rival views on how to handle the threats or challenges they face.
Additionally, Octavian seems to have the young Julian as his pupil. Perhaps Harry's role is not to become the messiah, but to become the "devil". Some religious beliefs tend to believe that the existence of evil is necessary. The fact that the Caduceus is formed by two snakes may indicate that the religious sect cultivates both until they are ready to fulfill their purposes. Could the rivals be Julian and Harry? And could the mentors of these rivals be Jean and Octavian? Or am I just overthinking?
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